Gun Disarm Questions

[GuruJim1]

I respect your advice and opinion. It is well founded and there is good support for it.

For my part, however, I feel it's a catch 22. If he's going to shoot you, he's not going to give you a warning, so there is no way of perceiving your life is going to be taken. There is usually no point where it's obvious that he is going shoot you (other than him pointing a gun at you)...at least not before you're shot.

Actully, the person will give you some signs (ie..Body Language), and your gut feeling will too. If you hand over your money and the person sticks around they maybe trying to work the courage up to shoot you. As far as the your duty, the police duties, and disarming.

Your duty:

Your duty is to use what Instructors give their students (ie. Tactics). However, disarming a firearm is a one shot deal. If you mess up the chance of the attacker shooting you are even higher than before. I believe everyone has the right to self-defense, as an instructor my-self. Don't think, since you know how to disarm a gun that it will go off just like it does in the class room, it may not. The risks are high, and you should think if it's worth engaging this person. All I'll say is be realistic, and come out alive. It's not about the liabilty it's about one question, is your life worth taking that risk. It could go from, I just want money to, they're trying to get my gun to shot me, Bang!!! (the bad guy walks away and you don't).

Police Duties:

The police duties are to find these people and arrest them. The police does have a duty "To Serve and Protect". The police can't be everywhere all the time. Yes, you may need to defend yourself most of the time within the law. Criminals will make sure your alone, and try to get you somewhere private so a passing patrol car wont see them. The police tries to gather facts of what happened and I hope the victim could tell me what happened. Also, what did they look like. I have a hard time getting that from a dead victim. I like the idea of not being a victim, but in the real world you may have to let them win this one, and get them back in court with your eye-witness testimony. Martial Arts is about using your head not just your skill. Just because you know how to doesn't mean you'll win all the time. Play it smart, and weight all the risk.

Disarmings:

If you decied to disarm the person come at them with everything you have. Don't hold back, it about life and death....YOURS! Once you try to disarm and fail you have increased the chances of them shooting you just for your attempt. Listen to your gut, and try to keep a cool head. I do believe that the only person that is going to take care of you is you, but isn't the same as here's my money and he leaves. I'm sorry I don't believe in doing martial arts in every case. Like in 9/11 there's a time to fight, a time for flight, and a time to let them have this one. It's up to you to choose which one you are going to do.

Thank you for post, and you do have some great points.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Actully, the person will give you some signs (ie..Body Language), and your gut feeling will too. If you hand over your money and the person sticks around they maybe trying to work the courage up to shoot you. As far as the your duty, the police duties, and disarming.

There's always a bit of assumption and guess work involved. Criminals don't always operate in cookie cutter fashion. Some will shoot you so as not to leave witnesses.

I'm an officer myself, and I worked a homicide some time ago where a man walked up to another man, and point blank shot him in the face. There was no 'lead up', he just walked up with the gun and fired. It seems kind of dangerous to assume sometimes. They may also just shoot you outright. Just food for thought.

Your duty:

Your duty is to use what Instructors give their students (ie. Tactics). However, disarming a firearm is a one shot deal. If you mess up the chance of the attacker shooting you are even higher than before. I believe everyone has the right to self-defense, as an instructor my-self. Don't think, since you know how to disarm a gun that it will go off just like it does in the class room, it may not. The risks are high, and you should think if it's worth engaging this person. All I'll say is be realistic, and come out alive. It's not about the liabilty it's about one question, is your life worth taking that risk. It could go from, I just want money to, they're trying to get my gun to shot me, Bang!!! (the bad guy walks away and you don't).

I respect your position, and there may be a time and place for it. My point, however, is that either way is a risk. When a man puts a gun in your face, there is no guarantee what he will do. Armed Robbery carries a high prison term, and many offenders are multiple felons who are facing serious time if caught. They may decide to not leave any witnesses. In which case, you die from lack of action.

Police Duties:

The police duties are to find these people and arrest them. The police does have a duty "To Serve and Protect". The police can't be everywhere all the time. Yes, you may need to defend yourself most of the time within the law. Criminals will make sure your alone, and try to get you somewhere private so a passing patrol car wont see them. The police tries to gather facts of what happened and I hope the victim could tell me what happened. Also, what did they look like. I have a hard time getting that from a dead victim. I like the idea of not being a victim, but in the real world you may have to let them win this one, and get them back in court with your eye-witness testimony. Martial Arts is about using your head not just your skill. Just because you know how to doesn't mean you'll win all the time. Play it smart, and weight all the risk.

Yes, agreed. The converse, however, is that inaction kills too.

Disarmings:

If you decied to disarm the person come at them with everything you have. Don't hold back, it about life and death....YOURS! Once you try to disarm and fail you have increased the chances of them shooting you just for your attempt. Listen to your gut, and try to keep a cool head. I do believe that the only person that is going to take care of you is you, but isn't the same as here's my money and he leaves. I'm sorry I don't believe in doing martial arts in every case. Like in 9/11 there's a time to fight, a time for flight, and a time to let them have this one. It's up to you to choose which one you are going to do.

Agreed.

Thank you for post, and you do have some great points.

You as well. Good insight. :asian:


The main problem with gun disarms is it assumes you're already behind the power curve and have failed to apply the first rule of a gun fight.....bring a gun. Coming to a gun fight unarmed is an extraordinarily dangerous undertaking. Trying to take a gun from another is a low-percentage endeavor, and only works if your attacker is inexperienced and careless.

As many societies and governments assume their citizens are too stupid and incompetent to have a gun, this is unavoidable in most places. Where it's not avoidable, however, armed robberies, home invasions and burglaries are quite a rarer occurance. But I digress.

 

[GuruJim1]

There's always a bit of assumption and guess work involved. Criminals don't always operate in cookie cutter fashion. Some will shoot you so as not to leave witnesses.

Yes, there is no sure thing with human beings. There are those out there that will just shoot and take what they want. Your right that is alot about guess work, but it can give you a higher chance to come out alive if you read very thing into what's happening. If you read wrong, then that wont be very good, but it's a committed attack, no backing out.

I respect your position, and there may be a time and place for it. My point, however, is that either way is a risk. When a man puts a gun in your face, there is no guarantee what he will do. Armed Robbery carries a high prison term, and many offenders are multiple felons who are facing serious time if caught. They may decide to not leave any witnesses. In which case, you die from lack of action.

Yes, agreed, that inaction will kill as well as action will kill. However, action has a higher risk for death if you fail, but the rewards are greater if you don't, a chance to live. Thats why there is no backing out once you engage the attacker.

The main problem with gun disarms is it assumes you're already behind the power curve and have failed to apply the first rule of a gun fight.....bring a gun. Coming to a gun fight unarmed is an extraordinarily dangerous undertaking. Trying to take a gun from another is a low-percentage endeavor, and only works if your attacker is inexperienced and careless.

As many societies and governments assume their citizens are too stupid and incompetent to have a gun, this is unavoidable in most places. Where it's not avoidable, however, armed robberies, home invasions and burglaries are quite a rarer occurance. But I digress.

Great insight, and 100% true.

 

[Delta]

For anyone wishing to find out how good gun disarms are I suggest buying an airsoft handgun. I believe you can get a cheap one for around $20 at walmart. They shoot 6mm plastic bb's. If you mess up you will feel it and it does hurt.

This is a big eye opener as you will notice (atleast I did) that you will get shot a lot. I also think this is a good test. You can have a good training partner and have good aggressive energy but if nothing comes out of the training gun that your using then your assuming you got out of the way.

Great discussion.

 

[Cujo]

Good point Delta. All that I have to say is this. IF you attempt a gun disarm, expect to get shot. Only you can decide if you are skilled enough to attempt this move. Only you can decide on the attitude of your attacker, ie. what is his intention. This is a life or death situation and there are no tap outs, no refs, and no "restarts", as we do in training. Train. Train, Train! Train using multiple situations, angles and situations. If you do decide to act, act with sudden violence and determination of purpose! "Don't hit at all if it can be avoided, but never hit softly." Theodore Roosevelt.

Pax
Cujo

 

[FearlessFreep]

Probably impossible to get but I would really be interested to know:

a) number of deaths attributed to gunshot when the primary motivation was robbery and not murder
b) number of robbery attemts with a weapon in which the victim fought back and was seriously/ injured or killed (broken down by whether or not the victim had any self defense or martial training)
c) number of robbery attempts with a waepon in which the victim fought back successfully (broken down by whether or not the victim had any self defense or martial training)

The first would tell you your odds of surviving a confrontation is you just go along with it, the second two would tell you your odds if you fight back.

If you are more likely to get shot anyway, even if you go along and give in, then maybe it's worth fighting back, but if robbers tend to not shot compliant victims, maybe better to just give 'em the money. Of those that are shot while resisting, what are there survival rates compared to those shot outright...does resisting increase or decrease you chances of the shot being lethal?

Maybe some LEOs around could give us at least anecdotal observations.

 

[Cujo]

Good questions FF, I will try to look into getting some stats but I am off for the next two days so it will be a bit before I can reply.

Pax
Cujo

 

[Brad Dunne]

The first would tell you your odds of surviving a confrontation is you just go along with it, the second two would tell you your odds if you fight back.

I've read somewhere that the justice department released related information (about 1993), if memory serves. The bottom line was very interesting for that time period. They stated that there was a 50/50 chance of either being killed or seriously injured, when dealing with an armed assailant. With the proliferation of weapons in the street and the seemingly lack of serious incarceration for these offenders, it is assumed that those figure have changed for the worse. Within the last 6 months in the local news here (Tampa FL), there have been at least 7 or 8 people shot or stabbed in holdups and they were reportedly complying at the time. One would think that a trained person would increase their odds if they took action. Personally, if it's my turn to go out, I'd rather go out trying than just standing there and hoping that I'll be on the good side of the 50/50 equation, which is probably more like 70/30 in todays world.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

People need to remember that getting shot with a pistol doesnt mean you are 100% going to die.

If you have to do it you have to do it. The trick is figuring out "when" you have to.

 

[GuruJim1]

I do have some experience with gun shot victims. Your right, getting shot does not mean your dead every time. Keep fighting even if you do get shot, if you stop then you many get shot over and over. I teach in the Police Academy is never give up. Giving up means your dead, don't just except death, FIGHT!!! You made the decision to disarm; you’re in this until your safe.

As for a gun shot wound, if you didn't die the moment you was shot, your chases of living are good. If a 11 seconds goes by, your chases of living are better. If you can keep your cool, your chases of living are great. Only 1-2% of the people shot actually die of the bullet wound. Most people die from the going into shock, because they freaked out. If you have a chest injury and you’re having hard time breathing, and bubbles and air are coming from the wound. Place plastic over the wound. This will seal the wound and aloud the person to breathe better until help arrives.

Just remember, even best prepared martial artist may not succeed at their disarming attempt. If you try to disarm a gun expect to be shot, a knife expect to get cut, and a club expect to get hit. Practice may help you to disarm the person, and/or keep your injuries to a minimum. Just don't stop once you engage.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Beyond the 'what if' scenarios, like "what if he shoots me because I saw his face and he's afrad I'll ID him or something" which can be anecdotal, or reasonabe or silly, I think knowing the liklihood of the event could be useful. If I'm mugged or my house is invaded, but I'm pretty likely not to get shot if I go along, I'd be more inclined to go along. If I'm likely to get shot anyway, I'm going to fight back a lot sooner.

At some point in the encounter there is likely to be an occurance at which my chances of being seriously or fatally wounded are going to go way up. I'd like to know where that point is likely to be, so I can make sure I don't cross into it. Or if it's already too late and I'm already across that point, it'd be nice to know I am so I can do my best to get back into a better chance of surviving.

On the otherhand, if my chances of getting shot are %60 if I comply but 90% if I fight....hm... maybe I'll take the bad odds over the worse odds, if you see my point

Then there is fighting back itself. Once I attempt a disarm, if I fail, I've just sent the chances of the criminal *wanting* to fire at me from...whatever it was, straight to 100%, but what have I done to the chance of him getting of the shot? Now I've hopefully gotten the weapon offline from being aimed at my center mass, and instilled in him a certain amount of fear and stress. We both are striving to control the weapon and there the fact that I exercise every day and make a hobby of training to beat the crap out of people could come to play in my advantage.

So at what point does doing something become a better or worse alternative?

 

[sgtmac_46]

I do have some experience with gun shot victims. Your right, getting shot does not mean your dead every time. Keep fighting even if you do get shot, if you stop then you many get shot over and over. I teach in the Police Academy is never give up. Giving up means your dead, don't just except death, FIGHT!!! You made the decision to disarm; you’re in this until your safe.

As for a gun shot wound, if you didn't die the moment you was shot, your chases of living are good. If a 11 seconds goes by, your chases of living are better. If you can keep your cool, your chases of living are great. Only 1-2% of the people shot actually die of the bullet wound. Most people die from the going into shock, because they freaked out. If you have a chest injury and you’re having hard time breathing, and bubbles and air are coming from the wound. Place plastic over the wound. This will seal the wound and aloud the person to breathe better until help arrives.

Just remember, even best prepared martial artist may not succeed at their disarming attempt. If you try to disarm a gun expect to be shot, a knife expect to get cut, and a club expect to get hit. Practice may help you to disarm the person, and/or keep your injuries to a minimum. Just don't stop once you engage.

Yes, handgun wounds are extremly survivable if you survive the initial shooting. Stopping the bleeding and remaining calm is paramount.

As for gun take aways, I should clarify a point I made earlier on. If you, yourself, have a firearm and are skilled with it, using it against an armed attacker is probably the best of all scenarios. Your odd's are better than cooperating in terminating the situation without getting killed yourself.

If, however, you are unarmed against an attacker, it's an iffy situation either way, and one which should be weighed before going in to action

Some situations to avoid. If someone pulls a gun and demands you relocate, run. Most of the time someone will not shoot at you if you are running, versus physcially resisting. What's more, it's much harder to hit a moving target with a handgun than it might seem. Never underestimate the power of taking flight.

Whatever you do, DON'T walk in to the 'walk in' freezer at the restaurant or grocery store at gun point. It's a good place for an execution. If they try to tie you up, don't cooperate (that's idiotic)

What's more, it's nearly impossible to tie someone up AND hold a gun at the same time.

As for the question about home invasions, understand that home invasions are violent and volatile situations. Robberies on the street tend to be the 'give me the money' sort, and then someone flees.

Home invasions are conducted by far more violent individuals who are inclined not to leave witnesses. They are also, by their nature, prolonged events. The longer a potentially violent event like a home invasion goes on, the more likely it is to end in an execution.

If you're on the receiving end of a home invasion, understand that your odd's of not surviving by cooperating are much greater than in a street robbery. The dynamics are far different. Couple that with the fact that home invaders may have some casual connection to you, and that increases the odds that they won't want to leave any witnesses, whereas street robberies tend to be more random.

Assuming a lack of desire or access to a firearm as defense against home invasion, perhaps the best defense is to flee and avoid contact with the invaders. It is ill advised to confront home invaders with any other weapon but a firearm, as they are likely to be armed with a firearm themselves.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7769769&dopt=Abstract

This study is ok, but I have to wonder why they excluded home invasions who's purpose was sexual assault? I have to wonder if sexual assaults didn't fit in to the conclusions of the author of the study, who really wanted to make a 'property isn't worth resisting' point. Maybe he didn't want to make a 'not getting raped isn't worth resisting' point, so he avoided it. Just another observation about possible bias in statistical studies. But I digress.

At any rate, here is some good advice on preventing home invasion

http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/20050201/4/1313

"police arrested leaders of a Harlem gang that, police say, terrorized drug dealers with a series of over 100 home-invasion robberies. The leaders were also allegedly involved in three murders."

 

[Jonathan Randall]

IFortunately, things are changing. Crime, especially violent crime, has been dropping for the last 15 years. Much of that is do to better, more aggressive enforcement designed to target career criminals and put them in jail. I think in no small part, however, it's due to communities standing up and saying that they aren't going to tolerate criminal behavior anymore.

Yes, I agree. I don't understand the rational behind "Three Strikes". Why do they get three? How about one strike for violent crime?

That video was horrific. I hope the man survived and the perpetrators caught. I honestly believe that he was in a lose, lose situation as the young criminal backed up before firing and gave no warning.

 

[FearlessFreep]

OK, I'll admit to a bit of ignorance here. What is a 'home invasion'? I'd never heard the term until I started studying martial arts and I sorta thought it just meant someting along the lines of an attempted home burglary where the burgler did not realize there were people home and now you've got anencounter between the burgler and the residents, but it sounds like the term is being used to mean something else?

 

[arnisador]

There was a recent high-profile home invasion robbery here in ABQ.

Check out the link previously given for a definition:
http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/20050201/4/1313

Home invasion robberies, which involve either using force or a ruse to enter someone’s home

 

[MJS]

Question for the LEO's that we have posting on this discussion: Is there a major difference between the gun disarms that are taught to LEO's compared to the ones that we typically see in MA schools? If so, what is the difference between the two?

Mike

 

[FearlessFreep]

What gun disarms *are* taught to LEOs, other then to back up to a safe location and call for backup of overwhelming force?

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Well Im not a cop but I was an MP. Most civilian stuff Ive read and things I have done are simple. If you are close enough to grab the gun, grab it and keep it pointed away from you. Twist it like hell and turn your body till he breaks some bones or he lets go. Fancy slap asides and gunting type motions have too high a chance to miss.

Its a **** sandwitch no matter how you look at it with a high chance of getting shot. Grabbing and hanging on is simple and can work. If he fires and misses and its an automatic that can actually be good as it will 99% of the times be jammed. You may get cut or burned but if thats all you are lucky.

 

[GuruJim1]

As far as gun disarms for LEO's is ready no different than the one taught in the MA. Just we trap the gun one hand and draw ours with the other hand. Thats about it.

 

[sgtmac_46]

OK, I'll admit to a bit of ignorance here. What is a 'home invasion'? I'd never heard the term until I started studying martial arts and I sorta thought it just meant someting along the lines of an attempted home burglary where the burgler did not realize there were people home and now you've got anencounter between the burgler and the residents, but it sounds like the term is being used to mean something else?

A home invasion is different than an attempted burglary in that the home invaders tend to know the victim is home.

They force their way in to the house, and then hold the residents hostage while they get what they came for, usually money or drugs. It's often associated with the drug trade, as the belief is that robbing someone who sells drugs, will mean they are far less likely to call the police.

It usually involves several individuals, and is conducted similar to a bank robbery, with certain individuals controlling the residents, and others getting the items they came for. They can be extremely violent, and have a high probability of resulting in a shooting or execution, as, by nature, those involving drugs usually mean that some member of the crew has some sort of casual relationship to the victim, to know where the drugs and money are.

In some areas, criminal gangs, have been conducting home invasion type robberies against immigrants, for similar reasons that they are less likely to call the police. Moreover, many immigrants don't trust or use banks, so they have large amounts of cash on hand.