Groundwork

[MJS]

In another thread, there are some video clips of Mr. Hayes and some ToShinDo schools. Recently a member posted a clip from the NC Toshindo school. Personally, I thought it was a fantastic clip! It showcased some alive training, bag work and some ground work.

Now, my experience of Toshindo is limited to what I've seen online, and various clips, so this is a sincere question, and I'm not intending to start some flame war. So..here goes.

In the recent clip that was posted from the NC school, I saw some great grappling. My question is...what is the groundwork program based on? Is it based on BJJ or did Mr. Hayes expand upon the groundwork that would be found in the Bujinkan? Is there a set curriculum for each level?

Looking forward to your replies!:ultracool

Mike

 

[bydand]

In the recent clip that was posted from the NC school, I saw some great grappling. My question is...what is the groundwork program based on? Is it based on BJJ or did Mr. Hayes expand upon the groundwork that would be found in the Bujinkan? Is there a set curriculum for each level?

Looking forward to your replies!:ultracool

Mike

I'll answer what I can. As far as I know the ground work is stuff from the Bujinkan that Hayes has expanded on. He also has other influences so it would be no big surprise if there are elements of other arts in there as well. I'll try to find out more.

There is a set curriculum for each level, but I have never seen a Dojo that goes strictly by the curriculum alone. Depending on the Instructor you can get from a moderate amount over the basic requirements for each level on the ground to an amazing amount more than the basic set. I know that up this direction the schools that are affiliated with SKH all have a LOT more on the ground than the curriculum calls for. Plus it depends on the class itself. There is always some leeway and every Instructor I know tailors to fit the class the best.

Hope this helps a bit. I will find out more about the origins from one of the Hombu Shihans I know.

 

[MJS]

I'll answer what I can. As far as I know the ground work is stuff from the Bujinkan that Hayes has expanded on. He also has other influences so it would be no big surprise if there are elements of other arts in there as well. I'll try to find out more.

There is a set curriculum for each level, but I have never seen a Dojo that goes strictly by the curriculum alone. Depending on the Instructor you can get from a moderate amount over the basic requirements for each level on the ground to an amazing amount more than the basic set. I know that up this direction the schools that are affiliated with SKH all have a LOT more on the ground than the curriculum calls for. Plus it depends on the class itself. There is always some leeway and every Instructor I know tailors to fit the class the best.

Hope this helps a bit. I will find out more about the origins from one of the Hombu Shihans I know.

Very cool! Thanks for the reply Scott!!! Yes, I'd be interested in hearing more if you can find out as well as from any of the other Toshindo members that we have here! :ultracool

Mike

 

[Michael Stinson]

Very cool! Thanks for the reply Scott!!! Yes, I'd be interested in hearing more if you can find out as well as from any of the other Toshindo members that we have here! :ultracool

Mike

The ground fighting that is involved in To-Shin Do comes from more than one source. Some of it most definitely has been extrapolated from the abundance of material that Mr. Hayes has to draw on. I have seen him do things that are similar to what you might find in BJJ, but upon being the uke it has just felt different if that makes sense.

One of the exercises we utilize is a 30 piece grappling flow drill. If I am not mistaken this drill came by way of Tom Maienza via Steve Crawford who teachs MMA/American Ju-jitsu.

I know Mr. Merritt from NC has definitely done some training with some MMA folks and has really spent some time in that arena so to speak. John Poliquin has a pretty extensive background prior to his involvement with these arts that I am sure works its way into what he does still.

In a way it is pretty interesting as when Mr. Hayes first started showing this stuff back in the early days he received a lot of flack for the 'rolling around on the ground stuff' that he was showing. In the 80s the mainstream US MA world wasn't too interested in what happened when a fight hit the ground. Then a few years later the Gracies really got the ball rolling in the 90s with the UFC and now everyone seems to have a ground fighting curriculum.

I myself have learned first and foremost from my instructors in To-Shin Do...but I have also gone out (and still go out) to train with other folks whenever I can. If I learn something that I like and it seems to work and fit in with my ideas than I am certainly not adverse to slipping it into what I do and teach.

One final thing I wanted to mention here is as was mentioned above, although we do have a standard curriculum that is shared between the schools we all have additional items and concepts that we as individual owners and instructors find important/interesting. We also all learn and share with one another so for example as Mr. Merritt gets more into what he is doing he brings it back and shares it and those interested play with it etc. There is ample room in what we do for the stuff we 'already have' as well as 'new stuff'.
Hope this helps some.

 

[WarGod]

I'm glad you liked the clip, Mike. The guys in NC work hard.

A similar question started an incredible slug fest on another board, so I hope mods will jump in if this get silly. I basically agree with what bydand and Mr. Stinson had to say - there is a set curriculum for each level, with a series of moves incorporated into a "ground flow drill". However, I don't know the history behind the drill, and I had never seen any groundwork in the Bujinkan before To-shin Do, so I can't state with any certainty "where" it came from. That's really not a question I should be answering, anyway, honestly. I prefer to defer to Mr. Hayes concerning questions about To-shin Do, its history and formulation.

I do know that the school in Chapel Hill has been training with some well-qualified BJJ instructors, including Greg Thompson from Team R.O.C. At least two of the instructors are BJJ blue belts with stripes under Greg.

William

 

[MJS]

The ground fighting that is involved in To-Shin Do comes from more than one source. Some of it most definitely has been extrapolated from the abundance of material that Mr. Hayes has to draw on. I have seen him do things that are similar to what you might find in BJJ, but upon being the uke it has just felt different if that makes sense.

One of the exercises we utilize is a 30 piece grappling flow drill. If I am not mistaken this drill came by way of Tom Maienza via Steve Crawford who teachs MMA/American Ju-jitsu.

I know Mr. Merritt from NC has definitely done some training with some MMA folks and has really spent some time in that arena so to speak. John Poliquin has a pretty extensive background prior to his involvement with these arts that I am sure works its way into what he does still.

In a way it is pretty interesting as when Mr. Hayes first started showing this stuff back in the early days he received a lot of flack for the 'rolling around on the ground stuff' that he was showing. In the 80s the mainstream US MA world wasn't too interested in what happened when a fight hit the ground. Then a few years later the Gracies really got the ball rolling in the 90s with the UFC and now everyone seems to have a ground fighting curriculum.

I myself have learned first and foremost from my instructors in To-Shin Do...but I have also gone out (and still go out) to train with other folks whenever I can. If I learn something that I like and it seems to work and fit in with my ideas than I am certainly not adverse to slipping it into what I do and teach.

One final thing I wanted to mention here is as was mentioned above, although we do have a standard curriculum that is shared between the schools we all have additional items and concepts that we as individual owners and instructors find important/interesting. We also all learn and share with one another so for example as Mr. Merritt gets more into what he is doing he brings it back and shares it and those interested play with it etc. There is ample room in what we do for the stuff we 'already have' as well as 'new stuff'.
Hope this helps some.

Hey Mike,

Nice to see you posting again! We have this section specifically for Toshindo folks, so it sure would be great to have more posting!

Thanks for the info that you posted!

Mike

 

[MJS]

I'm glad you liked the clip, Mike. The guys in NC work hard.

A similar question started an incredible slug fest on another board, so I hope mods will jump in if this get silly. I basically agree with what bydand and Mr. Stinson had to say - there is a set curriculum for each level, with a series of moves incorporated into a "ground flow drill". However, I don't know the history behind the drill, and I had never seen any groundwork in the Bujinkan before To-shin Do, so I can't state with any certainty "where" it came from. That's really not a question I should be answering, anyway, honestly. I prefer to defer to Mr. Hayes concerning questions about To-shin Do, its history and formulation.

I do know that the school in Chapel Hill has been training with some well-qualified BJJ instructors, including Greg Thompson from Team R.O.C. At least two of the instructors are BJJ blue belts with stripes under Greg.

William

Hey William!

I think I know what thread and forum you're talking about. No worries...I'll do my best to prevent this from going south.

I didn't want to assume anything, but when I was looking at the clip, there was alot that was similar to BJJ. Its good to see the art expand and I really liked the fight clip at the end. Great stuff!!

 

[WarGod]

Mike - exactly. I personally wouldn't want to train in a martial art where the predominant philosophy was "This worked 900 years ago, it will work today." Times change, new methods, techniques and weapons get developed. We don't throw rocks at each other on the battlefield anymore, nor do we use black powder rifles. Who would train that way for anything other than living history? And that's just not what I'm interested in.

BJJ has a very comprehensive and well-developed ground fighting methodology. It just makes sense to start from a well-developed platform instead of re-inventing the wheel. It doesn't mean I'm willing to stop with BJJ - things like weapons and multiple attackers play hell with a sport-oriented BJJ scenario. But the basics are the basics.

Its nice to have a To-Shin Do oriented forum. Thanks - and I hope it continues to grow!

William

 

[MJS]

Mike - exactly. I personally wouldn't want to train in a martial art where the predominant philosophy was "This worked 900 years ago, it will work today." Times change, new methods, techniques and weapons get developed. We don't throw rocks at each other on the battlefield anymore, nor do we use black powder rifles. Who would train that way for anything other than living history? And that's just not what I'm interested in.

Looks like we're on the same page! This has been my philosophy as well, and I'll admit, I've taken some 'heat' for it, with folks saying that nothing needs to be changed, blah, blah. I'm not talking about a total overhaul, but simply re-evaluating and seeing if things are still up to par. People tend to forget that things change everyday. Cars, medicine, computers...just a few examples.

BJJ has a very comprehensive and well-developed ground fighting methodology. It just makes sense to start from a well-developed platform instead of re-inventing the wheel. It doesn't mean I'm willing to stop with BJJ - things like weapons and multiple attackers play hell with a sport-oriented BJJ scenario. But the basics are the basics.

Agreed. Its not the end all, be all of fighting, but I still feel that having ground knowledge is key.

Its nice to have a To-Shin Do oriented forum. Thanks - and I hope it continues to grow!

William

Likewise.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

To Shin Do came from Budo Taijutsu so there are similarities of course. However, To Shin Do came about based of Stephen Hayes understanding of Budo Taijutsu and Hatsumi' teaching's and other influences from othe martial systems. To Shin Do clearly is it's own art now and I for one am interested in Mikes (MJS) question on grappling within To Shin Do and how you guy's do it. If anyone has any unique To Shin Do video footage that would be interesting or even talk on technique movement or strategy! Thanks!

 

[Michael Stinson]

I didn't want to assume anything, but when I was looking at the clip, there was alot that was similar to BJJ. Its good to see the art expand and I really liked the fight clip at the end. Great stuff!!

My understanding of BJJ is that it started off from a kodokan judoka and was taught to and refined by the Gracie family. The arts taught in To-Shin Do/Bujinkan training contain old schools of what is basically jujutsu. With this being the case we share similar roots so it shouldn't be very surprising to see us doing stuff that looks like BJJ and vice versa. When I first started training I can recall going to a John Poliquin ground fighting seminar with him teaching stuff that looks quite a bit like what I see being taught in many MMA schools. Where did he learn it? Have to ask him one day....not sure With more and more people working on ground fighting it is only natural that more things are being developed and new and improved concepts are going to come out. As those come out I am certainly going to be exploring them and trying out what does and doesn't work for me and I have no doubt my seniors and contemporaries do the same to some degree.

 

[MJS]

My understanding of BJJ is that it started off from a kodokan judoka and was taught to and refined by the Gracie family. The arts taught in To-Shin Do/Bujinkan training contain old schools of what is basically jujutsu. With this being the case we share similar roots so it shouldn't be very surprising to see us doing stuff that looks like BJJ and vice versa. When I first started training I can recall going to a John Poliquin ground fighting seminar with him teaching stuff that looks quite a bit like what I see being taught in many MMA schools. Where did he learn it? Have to ask him one day....not sure With more and more people working on ground fighting it is only natural that more things are being developed and new and improved concepts are going to come out. As those come out I am certainly going to be exploring them and trying out what does and doesn't work for me and I have no doubt my seniors and contemporaries do the same to some degree.

Well, as I said in my OP, my experience with your art is limited, but from what you're saying and from what I've seen, it looks like some great stuff, and everyone is always looking to evolve. I couldn't agree more with your comment on the ground aspect. Seems like everyone is learning it, so there is always that need to keep exploring things.

 

[bydand]

When I first started training I can recall going to a John Poliquin ground fighting seminar with him teaching stuff that looks quite a bit like what I see being taught in many MMA schools. Where did he learn it? Have to ask him one day....not sure

I used to train with John when he was still up in Presque Isle before he moved down to Portland and do know he had trained in Judo (Think he earned his BB in Judo) for several years before finding Ninjutsu, then transitioning to To-Shin Do. Man that guy is great on the ground! I have a sneaking suspicion that he had a bit of influence to the direction TSD took with the ground stuff. I know we did much more groundwork than most schools at the time. The bunch up here still lean that direction quite a bit.