Gripping a knife

[frank raud]

As others have said, your grip depends on the knife and what you are doing with it. I think it is very important to also understand that Fairbairn's method also used a SPECIFIC knife that was taught to the soldiers. The knife was designed for mainly stabbing and also for using the butt of the handle to smash as well. The hammer grip was the best grip for how his knife was to be used.

View attachment 29324

If you look in Get Tough!, Fairbairn shows a Saber grip and an icepick grip for the use of the FS. I'm not aware of any pommel work with the FS knife, although the similar V42 stilletto has a skull crusher pommel.

 

[frank raud]

As others have said, your grip depends on the knife and what you are doing with it. I think it is very important to also understand that Fairbairn's method also used a SPECIFIC knife that was taught to the soldiers. The knife was designed for mainly stabbing and also for using the butt of the handle to smash as well. The hammer grip was the best grip for how his knife was to be used.

View attachment 29324

Let me clarify my previous post. The demonstrated grip for the FS knife is the Saber Grip or ice pick grip, and there is no pommel work for the FS blade. The Smatchet, a hefty short sword is demonstated with a hammer grip and shows the use of the pommel.

 

[punisher73]

Let me clarify my previous post. The demonstrated grip for the FS knife is the Saber Grip or ice pick grip, and there is no pommel work for the FS blade. The Smatchet, a hefty short sword is demonstated with a hammer grip and shows the use of the pommel.

Yep, you are correct. Got my knives mixed up with Fairbairn and the later V42 techniques. Good call!

Its what happens when I try to go from memory while battling CRAFT disease (Can't Remember A Freaking Thing). LOL

 

[Alan0354]

I did not read the entire thread, but I am interested in grip. I am just starting not to long ago, I find the grips best suit from slashing and stabbing and thrusting the heavy bag is this:
1) For slashing and cutting, I use SABER grip with thumb on top of the knife so I can control the knife better.
2) for thrusting(shanking) and stabbing, I definitely use HAMMER grip. I found I hurt my thumb sometimes if I thrust with SABER grip. So I practice switching grip on the fly depending on whether I am slashing or thrusting.

Is that the right idea?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I did not read the entire thread, but I am interested in grip. I am just starting not to long ago, I find the grips best suit from slashing and stabbing and thrusting the heavy bag is this:
1) For slashing and cutting, I use SABER grip with thumb on top of the knife so I can control the knife better.
2) for thrusting(shanking) and stabbing, I definitely use HAMMER grip. I found I hurt my thumb sometimes if I thrust with SABER grip. So I practice switching grip on the fly depending on whether I am slashing or thrusting.

Is that the right idea?

How much power are you putting into the strokes?

 

[Alan0354]

How much power are you putting into the strokes?

I really follow how I strike with a cane shown here for knife:

When I slash, I do like punching straight out, but at the same time turn my body to create the rotating slash motion. This helps to make the slash very compact, not like wild swing. At close to point of contact, it's almost FULL POWER.

I use Saber grip for slashing, I use the Idea like the Wing Chung nudging punch that using the wrist to turn upwards to use the baby knuckle to punch at last moment to ADD to the speed and force. I just reverse the motion by turning the wrist down and use the thumb to push the knife down at the last moment before contact to add speed to the slashing movement(to create a chopping motion). For 45 or 90deg slashing, it's the same except the wrist motion follows the angle of the slash.

Even though it is slash, I add the chopping component in it. Just like LaMont Glass, the stick not only snap out, but have a chopping component also.

Then of cause pull back as fast as I reach out.

I just improvise to put what I learn in kick boxing punches and stick fight, using the technique that add speed and power and use it in knife practice.

When I do the slashing, I definitely hear the sleeve slapping sound in the air.

 

[tkdroamer]

I really follow how I strike with a cane shown here for knife:

When I slash, I do like punching straight out, but at the same time turn my body to create the rotating slash motion. This helps to make the slash very compact, not like wild swing. At close to point of contact, it's almost FULL POWER.

I use Saber grip for slashing, I use the Idea like the Wing Chung nudging punch that using the wrist to turn upwards to use the baby knuckle to punch at last moment to ADD to the speed and force. I just reverse the motion by turning the wrist down and use the thumb to push the knife down at the last moment before contact to add speed to the slashing movement(to create a chopping motion). For 45 or 90deg slashing, it's the same except the wrist motion follows the angle of the slash.

Even though it is slash, I add the chopping component in it. Just like LaMont Glass, the stick not only snap out, but have a chopping component also.

Then of cause pull back as fast as I reach out.

I just improvise to put what I learn in kick boxing punches and stick fight, using the technique that add speed and power and use it in knife practice.

When I do the slashing, I definitely hear the sleeve slapping sound in the air.

It is the hardest thing I found to train, but there is resistance pulling a long blade back that would change what or how you were practicing the cane on BOB. The cane is bouncing back toward you. A penetrating blade is going to stick a little.
The striking motion would be the same. But if you slice and penetrate, there is a resistance to consider when returning the blade. It changes the geometry of the motion and thusly the mechanics.
It doesn't last very long but a plastic 55-gallon drum mostly full of water wrapped in thick, dense foam or rubber provides good resistance. I was lucky enough to get two old and torn wrestling mats from a high school. I have wrapped cut pieces of it over the barrel for years.
The Bob's that we end up breaking in kicking class end up getting butchered.

 

[_Simon_]

I always just thought... don't hold the pointy end!!!

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I always just thought... don't hold the pointy end!!!

In fencing we had a saying "Just stick them with the pointy end". And a secondary saying "Don't get stuck with the pointy end". Those two pretty much cover it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I really follow how I strike with a cane shown here for knife:

And that is the problem. You don't need to do that with a knife. The amount of force needed to penetrate with a knife is remarkably low.

A knife is not a fist. A stick is not a katana. They're used differently.

Turn off YouBoob. Get a real trainer. Learn to use things properly.

 

[Alan0354]

It is the hardest thing I found to train, but there is resistance pulling a long blade back that would change what or how you were practicing the cane on BOB. The cane is bouncing back toward you. A penetrating blade is going to stick a little.
The striking motion would be the same. But if you slice and penetrate, there is a resistance to consider when returning the blade. It changes the geometry of the motion and thusly the mechanics.
It doesn't last very long but a plastic 55-gallon drum mostly full of water wrapped in thick, dense foam or rubber provides good resistance. I was lucky enough to get two old and torn wrestling mats from a high school. I have wrapped cut pieces of it over the barrel for years.
The Bob's that we end up breaking in kicking class end up getting butchered.

I use a plastic knife with a rubber cane foot glued to the tip to shank and slash on the heavy kicking bag. I practice 50:50 between in air and on the heavy bag.

How come people keep talking about BOB, Is heavy bag just the same?

Good to know it stick to the object after slashing and shanking. I do practice pulling back, I try to pull back as fast as I attack.

 

[Dirty Dog]

How come people keep talking about BOB, Is heavy bag just the same?

Because aim. Anatomical landmarks.

 

[drop bear]

I always just thought... don't hold the pointy end!!!

Then you are ahead of the curve in regards to most knife fighters.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I really follow how I strike with a cane shown here for knife:

Alan are you saying that you use this impact optimized distance technique for your knife (short and edged) practice?
If you look at Lamont's body work, his weight is on the same side at the point of impact. For his demonstration he did it with lead leg change. It helps with the distance he is discussing.

The point to also look at is watch his knees as they turn with his Hip Snap at the point of impact. They come together .
This is good for the impact and the snap for range.

If one was to use the snap for range with a long weapon one might cast it out where the point is past the target and the edge can make contact and instead of the hip rotation Lamont does, one does a weight transition to the back side which would create a draw cut.
This draw gut and the snap is enough to make contact and let the edge do its' design work of cutting.

I tried to explain this before.

When I slash, I do like punching straight out, but at the same time turn my body to create the rotating slash motion. This helps to make the slash very compact, not like wild swing. At close to point of contact, it's almost FULL POWER.

Hold in Hammer grip for this drill.
Stand with legs normal and just move from high right to mid left with the blade in the right hand.
This is a basic slash.

Now put your right foot forward in a normal distance for walking. Weight is slightly on the right leg / lead leg. 51+ %. Not 100%.
Somewhere in between. And it really depends upon how far out one wants to reach and how long of a stride one is in.
Now from this point keep the elbow bent and close to the chest. Make the hammer fist diagonally across the body and when the hand reaches the imaginary line that bisects your body into left and right, then shift your weight to your left side. This draws the blade across the target, keeps the weapon close and in a strong frame.
Repeat and then once it feels ok try it on the other side with a backhand hammer fist.

The Hammer fist is to keep the blade about 90 deg to your wrist.
This forces you to bend your knees more to find the angle for best contact. This can come later. Get as describes above. then other points can be added.

I use Saber grip for slashing, I use the Idea like the Wing Chung nudging punch that using the wrist to turn upwards to use the baby knuckle to punch at last moment to ADD to the speed and force. I just reverse the motion by turning the wrist down and use the thumb to push the knife down at the last moment before contact to add speed to the slashing movement(to create a chopping motion). For 45 or 90deg slashing, it's the same except the wrist motion follows the angle of the slash.

Even though it is slash, I add the chopping component in it. Just like LaMont Glass, the stick not only snap out, but have a chopping component also.

Then of cause pull back as fast as I reach out.

I just improvise to put what I learn in kick boxing punches and stick fight, using the technique that add speed and power and use it in knife practice.

When I do the slashing, I definitely hear the sleeve slapping sound in the air.

 

[Alan0354]

Alan are you saying that you use this impact optimized distance technique for your knife (short and edged) practice?
If you look at Lamont's body work, his weight is on the same side at the point of impact. For his demonstration he did it with lead leg change. It helps with the distance he is discussing.

The point to also look at is watch his knees as they turn with his Hip Snap at the point of impact. They come together .
This is good for the impact and the snap for range.

If one was to use the snap for range with a long weapon one might cast it out where the point is past the target and the edge can make contact and instead of the hip rotation Lamont does, one does a weight transition to the back side which would create a draw cut.
This draw gut and the snap is enough to make contact and let the edge do its' design work of cutting.

I tried to explain this before.



Hold in Hammer grip for this drill.
Stand with legs normal and just move from high right to mid left with the blade in the right hand.
This is a basic slash.

Now put your right foot forward in a normal distance for walking. Weight is slightly on the right leg / lead leg. 51+ %. Not 100%.
Somewhere in between. And it really depends upon how far out one wants to reach and how long of a stride one is in.
Now from this point keep the elbow bent and close to the chest. Make the hammer fist diagonally across the body and when the hand reaches the imaginary line that bisects your body into left and right, then shift your weight to your left side. This draws the blade across the target, keeps the weapon close and in a strong frame.
Repeat and then once it feels ok try it on the other side with a backhand hammer fist.

The Hammer fist is to keep the blade about 90 deg to your wrist.
This forces you to bend your knees more to find the angle for best contact. This can come later. Get as describes above. then other points can be added.

I read you post a few times, I can't figure out what you are saying.

 

[Alan0354]

Alan are you saying that you use this impact optimized distance technique for your knife (short and edged) practice?
If you look at Lamont's body work, his weight is on the same side at the point of impact. For his demonstration he did it with lead leg change. It helps with the distance he is discussing.

The point to also look at is watch his knees as they turn with his Hip Snap at the point of impact. They come together .
This is good for the impact and the snap for range.

If one was to use the snap for range with a long weapon one might cast it out where the point is past the target and the edge can make contact and instead of the hip rotation Lamont does, one does a weight transition to the back side which would create a draw cut.
This draw gut and the snap is enough to make contact and let the edge do its' design work of cutting.

I tried to explain this before.



Hold in Hammer grip for this drill.
Stand with legs normal and just move from high right to mid left with the blade in the right hand.
This is a basic slash.

Now put your right foot forward in a normal distance for walking. Weight is slightly on the right leg / lead leg. 51+ %. Not 100%.
Somewhere in between. And it really depends upon how far out one wants to reach and how long of a stride one is in.
Now from this point keep the elbow bent and close to the chest. Make the hammer fist diagonally across the body and when the hand reaches the imaginary line that bisects your body into left and right, then shift your weight to your left side. This draws the blade across the target, keeps the weapon close and in a strong frame.
Repeat and then once it feels ok try it on the other side with a backhand hammer fist.

The Hammer fist is to keep the blade about 90 deg to your wrist.
This forces you to bend your knees more to find the angle for best contact. This can come later. Get as describes above. then other points can be added.

Anyway you can make a short video, I want to see what you are talking.

Thanks

 

[frank raud]

Hmm, I wonfer what grip Mr. Linck advocates for a rock?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Hmm, I wonfer what grip Mr. Linck advocates for a rock?

One thing to note is that in the (admittedly brief) text, each of the sharp objects is clearly intended first and foremost as a stabbing weapon. I've said many times. Cutting is messy. Stabbing is deadly.

 

[tkdroamer]

Hmm, I wonfer what grip Mr. Linck advocates for a rock?

Each tool has its own advantages.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

THE HAMMER GRIP​

This term was coined by the late Col. Rex Applegate in his classic work Kill or Get Killed. To assume this grip, simply make a fist around the handle of the knife with the blade extending from the thumb side of the hand. Curl the thumb down and squeeze the hand tight.

The hammer grip is a very strong grip that is great for weapon retention and management of impact shock, and many knife practitioners use it exclusively. However, its focus on strength can sometimes compromise speed and maneuverability.

Get a Grip!: A Complete Guide To Knife Grips - SWAT Survival | Weapons | Tactics The above description is written by an acknowledged expert, Michael Janich. I train regularly with one of his instructors and have met and had face to face discussions with Mike Janich. As he mentions, the term was coined by Rex Applegate, a legend in the military combatives, shooting and knife worlds. I have trained with a direct student of Rex Applegate.
I have trained off and on for the last twenty years with Craig Douglas. He also advocates for the hammer grip, often in the reverse grip, or icepick configuration.

Don Pentecost, author off Put 'em down, Take 'em out! Knife fighting techniques from Folsom Prison call the hammer grip the hit grip. This is how he describes it. HIT Grip. The hit grip is primarily for penetration. It is the preferred grip for serious business. The hand is wrapped around the handle into a fist, with the blade extended from the top of the hand, between the thumb and index finger. Your thumb is the key element for a secure grip.

Why do acknowledged experts in military knife fighting, FMA and prison knife fighting all advocate the hammer grip? Could it be because it provides the most secure grip you can have on a knife without a guard, or an improvised weapon with an inadequate handle? Could it be because it is an instinctive grip that doesn't require a lot (or any)training to make work? I have been taught by multiple instructors that to combine a hammer grip with a locked wrist essentially creates a piston with a blade on the end. If you are doing point-oriented knife work, a hammer grip makes a lot of sense.

Thank you for posting this. I know a few things about grips, but not this detail. I learned hammer grip, being warned that saber grip is ineffective in sparring, and another instructor who pointed out this is best for pushing/pulling the blade though. I was told by an experienced student at my last class to use saber grip, because other grips cause slipping. I didn’t argue, focused on the drill. This guide explains it all pretty well.