Grandmother Hit With Taser

[MJS]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38009218/ns/us_news/

So...she's laying in bed, hooked up to oxygen, makes a comment that she wants to end her life, the police are called, she pulls a knife, and gets hit with the taser.

As always, not much to go on, and I always take articles like this with a grain of salt, but I'm still interested in hearing everyones thoughts.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I hope she wins her lawsuit.

 

[chaos1551]

http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/06/24/28330.htm

This link puts the story in a different light. I don't understand the discrepancy with the knife. This whole story just stinks to high hell. My guess is this is the story of the one out of a thousand cops that make the rest look bad.

 

[Touch Of Death]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38009218/ns/us_news/

So...she's laying in bed, hooked up to oxygen, makes a comment that she wants to end her life, the police are called, she pulls a knife, and gets hit with the taser.

As always, not much to go on, and I always take articles like this with a grain of salt, but I'm still interested in hearing everyones thoughts.

Police assisted scuicides are quite common. Here in Spokane, a woman called the police to stop her son's scuicide attempt. He was warning them away with broken glass; so, they shot him. When you confront a police officer with a deadly weapon, these things tend to happen. I don't blame the police, but a tazer would have been safer for everyone.
Sean

 

[Thesemindz]

That's what happens when you mess with the cops. I don't recommend it.

They're a pretty violent street gang.


-Rob

 

[Touch Of Death]

I hope she wins her lawsuit.

I am thinking she won't, but maybe.
sean

 

[MJS]

The 2nd link makes this story sound much worse. Was this woman trying to do suicide by cop? Dont know, but its possible. Pull a knife on the cops, in hopes that the officer(s) that you're dealing with are not seasoned, and could possibly be quicker to resort to deadly force, rather than less lethal options.

IMO, its another case of the cops being damned if they do, damned if they dont. Of course the taser sounds bad. It isn't. The paper would've made as much of a stink if they physically grabbed her and wrestled the blade away or if they whacked her with the baton, used OC or shot her.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Hooked up to O2?

I hope they understand oxygen and an electric spark are not a wise combination.

Plus, the Taser IS NOT A NON-LETHAL WEAPON. It's a 'less lethal' one. So to use the Taser they need to justify that. And at her age, it's mighty hard to justify that.

Where I work I'm part of a team that, uh, is called 'Dr. Strong'. We go in to where patients that are unrully and calm them down, with muscle if need be. BUT TO USE A TASER? Heck no! We use our hands to hold them, no joint locks, no bear hugs, no throwing them, no nothing like that.

So, what they did was not right and way out of line.

Deaf

 

[MJS]

Hooked up to O2?

I hope they understand oxygen and an electric spark are not a wise combination.

Ya know, thats a good point. I didn't even think about that.

Plus, the Taser IS NOT A NON-LETHAL WEAPON. It's a 'less lethal' one. So to use the Taser they need to justify that. And at her age, it's mighty hard to justify that.

Who said that? In my post, I mentioned that it was a less lethal weapon. Of course, I do have to wonder how many legit cases there are, in which the taser was definately the cause of death, and nothing else, meaning no pre-existing medical issues, not under the influence of alcohol or drugs, etc.

As for the age...I agree, it does sound a bit crazy, given her age, but if the use of force policy for this dept. dictates that its ok to use the taser, then 86 or 36, I suppose they'd be in the clear.

Where I work I'm part of a team that, uh, is called 'Dr. Strong'. We go in to where patients that are unrully and calm them down, with muscle if need be. BUT TO USE A TASER? Heck no! We use our hands to hold them, no joint locks, no bear hugs, no throwing them, no nothing like that.

I'm assuming you work in a hospital or mental institution? So basically, all you and the rest of the team are doing it holding the person down? I'm assuming until they physically exhaust themselves and then restrain, etc., as necessary?

So, what they did was not right and way out of line.

Deaf

I'd be interested in hearing the use of force policy for this PD, as I suggested above. Its easy for us to all armchair QB this, but depending on the policy, providing they didnt violate anything, then they might be in the clear.

 

[Disco]

As with most stories, I'm sure there is more to it than what we've been privy to, but lets just take it on face value. First, the police were called, secondly they were physically challenged by someone brandishing a knife. Regardless if she was an 86 yr old grandma, if the officer attempted to physically remove the knife, there's a high probability that he would have been cut (how sever ?), in her presented state of mind. In a situation like this, no matter what the police do/attempt, they will be vilified. That's just the nature of the general public when offered these types of stories.

Now lets presume for a moment that the sweet old granny actual does lash out at the officer and connects with neck and the artery is severed. Now we have a really nasty byline for some reported, but what happens to granny.......nothing. She would have been deemed mentally incompetent and would be in a hospital, as for the officer, well most likely he doesn't go home to the wife and kids. It's very easy for folks to sit back and reflect on an incident, lawyers and judges also, but the officer has to make a split second decision that follows him for his whole life. He doesn't have the luxury to mull over possible options, if any in a situation, but he's expected/tasked by the public to make these decisions, if he doesn't then he's under investigation by his department and that can/could lead to being demoted/fired or even indicted, depending upon the situation.

Bottom line to this particular story is granny's apparently fine, no worse for the wear and the cops will just have to bear another flogging at the hands of the media.

 

[geezer]

As with most stories, I'm sure there is more to it than what we've been privy to...

Bottom line to this particular story is granny's apparently fine, no worse for the wear and the cops will just have to bear another flogging at the hands of the media.

The quote above pretty much encapsulates my response.

Other than that, I might note that we've had a few tragic encounters between psychologically disturbed individuals and local police in my area in the last few years. One well publicized case involved a situation in which parents called the police because they were unable to control their disturbed teenage-son who was brandishing a knife. They thought that they were calling professionals who could safely restrain their son so he could get psychiatric treatment. When the police arrived, they responded to a perceived deadly threat and shot the young man dead.

Now considering the possibility of something like that happening, I'D RATHER SEE THEM USE A TASER and then have the luxury of being able to debate the issue later.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hooked up to O2?

I hope they understand oxygen and an electric spark are not a wise combination.

Plus, the Taser IS NOT A NON-LETHAL WEAPON. It's a 'less lethal' one. So to use the Taser they need to justify that. And at her age, it's mighty hard to justify that.

Where I work I'm part of a team that, uh, is called 'Dr. Strong'. We go in to where patients that are unrully and calm them down, with muscle if need be. BUT TO USE A TASER? Heck no! We use our hands to hold them, no joint locks, no bear hugs, no throwing them, no nothing like that.

So, what they did was not right and way out of line.

Deaf

What the police do is not comparable to "Dr. Strong". There are too many variables on the street to treat every call with kid gloves.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

As with most stories, I'm sure there is more to it than what we've been privy to, but lets just take it on face value. First, the police were called, secondly they were physically challenged by someone brandishing a knife. Regardless if she was an 86 yr old grandma, if the officer attempted to physically remove the knife, there's a high probability that he would have been cut (how sever ?), in her presented state of mind. In a situation like this, no matter what the police do/attempt, they will be vilified. That's just the nature of the general public when offered these types of stories.

Now lets presume for a moment that the sweet old granny actual does lash out at the officer and connects with neck and the artery is severed. Now we have a really nasty byline for some reported, but what happens to granny.......nothing. She would have been deemed mentally incompetent and would be in a hospital, as for the officer, well most likely he doesn't go home to the wife and kids. It's very easy for folks to sit back and reflect on an incident, lawyers and judges also, but the officer has to make a split second decision that follows him for his whole life. He doesn't have the luxury to mull over possible options, if any in a situation, but he's expected/tasked by the public to make these decisions, if he doesn't then he's under investigation by his department and that can/could lead to being demoted/fired or even indicted, depending upon the situation.

Bottom line to this particular story is granny's apparently fine, no worse for the wear and the cops will just have to bear another flogging at the hands of the media.

I can see the headline now...Bungling Cop Killed By Elderly Woman.
Sean

 

[Tez3]

I'm really sorry but I've a forces sense of humour...sick... and I howled with laughter at the thought of this old lady threatening the police officer and then being tasered! I told everyone and work and yep we all thought it was really funny. Sickos that we are.
(You don't want to know the comments made!)

Oh well at least I'm honest!

 

[sgtmac_46]

Hooked up to O2?

I hope they understand oxygen and an electric spark are not a wise combination.

Plus, the Taser IS NOT A NON-LETHAL WEAPON. It's a 'less lethal' one. So to use the Taser they need to justify that. And at her age, it's mighty hard to justify that.

Where I work I'm part of a team that, uh, is called 'Dr. Strong'. We go in to where patients that are unrully and calm them down, with muscle if need be. BUT TO USE A TASER? Heck no! We use our hands to hold them, no joint locks, no bear hugs, no throwing them, no nothing like that.

So, what they did was not right and way out of line.

Deaf

'Non-lethal versus Less-Lethal' is merely a semantical difference.

As to the oxygen issue, oxygen is not flammable, it is an oxidizer that merely promotes combustion in a more rapid fashion, meaning that a Taser won't set oxygen on fire.

As for the 'Dr. Strong' bit do your patients usually have knives?

Not saying I agree with the use of the Taser, there's not enough information, but the reality is that, having been subjected to many different uses of force in my career, the response to Taser use is completely overblown, as of all the levels of force i've been exposed to it, it is unpleasant, but has had the LOWEST level of long term risk of injury of all of them, including empty hand techniques.



I do part time security at a hospital, in addition to my full time employment as a police officer, so i've actually experienced both ends of this. One of our most common calls is to assist staff on the Psych ward. The difference is that those folks have all been relieved of their weapons BEFORE entering the ward, and there are 6 to 8 large men to help put one person in restraints in a controlled environment, and they also have the benefit of large doses of HALDOL. The two issues are not comparable, and again I can say that having done BOTH!

 

[sgtmac_46]

What the police do is not comparable to "Dr. Strong". There are too many variables on the street to treat every call with kid gloves.
Sean

Going to bet if one of their patients had a knife, they'd barricade the door and call the police.

 

[sgtmac_46]

From my perspective, I train my officers, solely because of the bad publicity, to be careful the situations they apply the Taser in, NOT because of any inherent risks, because having been exposed to the Taser and other types of force, numerous times, I know that Taser is among the SAFEST uses of force.......but merely because of the bad publicity the public has received about Tasers, and the knee jerk irrational reaction to it's use.

So, the result is that officers are more likely to use other, higher risk uses of force, in lieu of Tasers, in situations where Taser would be controversial, resulting in greater injuries to suspects........but that's just the price of doing business, and suspects paying the price for the Taser having such bad PR..........with me I use OC Spray far more than Taser.........I save the Taser for suspects who meet a certain higher end criteria.

 

[Empty Hands]

As to the oxygen issue, oxygen is not flammable, it is an oxidizer that merely promotes combustion in a more rapid fashion, meaning that a Taser won't set oxygen on fire.

"Police, fire report: Static spark near oxygen tank ignites fire"

 

[Deaf Smith]

As to the oxygen issue, oxygen is not flammable, it is an oxidizer that merely promotes combustion in a more rapid fashion, meaning that a Taser won't set oxygen on fire.

But sgt, the spark can set the cotton cloths or hair affire and the O2 will then excellerate any burning. Remember Apallo 1? The capsule was full of O2 and a spark ingited the wiring. Flash fire.

As for the 'Dr. Strong' bit do your patients usually have knives?

They can and we do have a policy on self defense as well as calling the hospital PD (we have our own PD, fully state certified.)

I'm assuming you work in a hospital or mental institution? So basically, all you and the rest of the team are doing it holding the person down? I'm assuming until they physically exhaust themselves and then restrain, etc., as necessary?

MJS,

I program computers in a very big hospital. Over 3000 employees.

Yes our policy is for our 'killer bees' (we have a little bee sticker on our ID to denote we are on the 'Dr. Strong' team) to hold the patient and not use any joint locks. BUT, part of the policy deals with force and lethal force if the patient gets a weapon and we have no choice but to defend ourselves.

The doctors and nurses can use restrains or drugs if need be, but us non-clinical staff are there just to restrain the patient if ABSOLUTLY NECESSARY. The Dr. will tell us to restrain the patient, we don't just walk in and unilaterally grab the patient!

That is what shocks (no pun intended) me so much. I mean they were cops. I presume stronger than the old lady on oxygen!

Totally unnecessary in my opinion.

Deaf

 

[MJS]

But sgt, the spark can set the cotton cloths or hair affire and the O2 will then excellerate any burning. Remember Apallo 1? The capsule was full of O2 and a spark ingited the wiring. Flash fire.

I'm not an expert on the Taser, so hopefully Sgt or someone else with knowledge of them will chime in, but I've never heard of anyone catching on fire after being hit with a taser. Are there cases of this?

They can and we do have a policy on self defense as well as calling the hospital PD (we have our own PD, fully state certified.)




MJS,

I program computers in a very big hospital. Over 3000 employees.

Yes our policy is for our 'killer bees' (we have a little bee sticker on our ID to denote we are on the 'Dr. Strong' team) to hold the patient and not use any joint locks. BUT, part of the policy deals with force and lethal force if the patient gets a weapon and we have no choice but to defend ourselves.

The doctors and nurses can use restrains or drugs if need be, but us non-clinical staff are there just to restrain the patient if ABSOLUTLY NECESSARY. The Dr. will tell us to restrain the patient, we don't just walk in and unilaterally grab the patient!

That is what shocks (no pun intended) me so much. I mean they were cops. I presume stronger than the old lady on oxygen!

Totally unnecessary in my opinion.

Deaf

Many of my training partners, both past and present, either have been or currently are working in some sort of LE field. A long time friend currently works in a mental institution, 2 worked in a youth facility, one of my Arnis insts. is a Capt in the Dept of Corrections, I worked for the DOC for a period of time. Each place has their own policies/procedures on how to handle a situation. IMO, I dont think its fair to judge this PD, due to the fact that AFAIK, nobody here knows the use of force policy. Therefore, while it seems that it was excessive, dangerous, whatever, it may not be. Even in the DOC, depending on the level of force the inmate is using, the CO has a protocol to follow.

Not long ago, in the dept that I dispatch for, there was a very large, out of control man, that the officers had to deal with. Of course, this article goes into the paper, and people were posting comments, asking why the officers dont carry tranqualizer guns, so they could shoot the suspect, much like they'd do to an animal. Ummm...yeah, lets just say I was speechless when I read that.

So, in a nutshell, there is a difference between dealing with a patient in the hospital, vs. someone that the PD will have to deal with.