Grandfather paradox solved?

Shizen Shigoku said:
I
Gamma 'particles' do not have mass. They are photons.


"Photons definitely are massless.

.
Mass of photon = [h^2/(8*(2r)2c^2)]1/2 = 2 x 10-69 kg . (10d)

Photons are definitely relatively massless-they do, indeed, have mass which can be measured in a variety of ways-and is every day.

I'll address the rest of this at length somewhat later, but I wasn't going to let this go......'cause it's wrong.
 
Well, they have effective mass, but photons are massless strictly speaking. Try plugging a velocity of c into the formula for mass as a function of velocity and see what happens to things with mass that travel at lightspeed...
 
Wow, this got awfully technical. I'm in a training class right now (boring), so I only have time to go back to the philosophical side of the paradox. Here's an idea...there can't be a paradox. Ever. No matter what. Because there are cause-and-effect realationships for things. Let's take the grandfather killing thing. If I go back to 1940 and kill my grandfather, then my dad wouldn't exist. Thing is, he existed for me to exist. I've heard that time is a dimension, so a person's placement on the timeline is a dimension of sorts. Right now, I know that I exist; therefore, I can go back and kill grandpa. But if I were to go back into the future from that point, then I would not be able to meet myself in 2004. But if I went back and truly did not influence anything, then I should be able to go along that timeline and meet my other self in 2004. I guess I believe that we all travel along our own individual timeline, just like we all have our own length, width, and height.
 
arnisador said:
Well, they have effective mass, but photons are massless strictly speaking. Try plugging a velocity of c into the formula for mass as a function of velocity and see what happens to things with mass that travel at lightspeed...
This is one of the problems that comes up when laymen try to discuss quantum physics.

The texts all read, and everyone seems to forget (excpet for physicists like myself) that the photon has zero rest mass.

Ever seen a photon at rest?
 
You seem to be the one guilty of having a layperson's opinion here.

Look at the formula for mass...it's got rest mass as a multiplicative factor. No rest mass, no mass. That's not what 'effective' mass means. (Afetr all, we're now mixing relativity and quantum, which is a dicey business.) It's not the mass 'gained' by motion (a cheesy description, but forgive me), it's the mass the photon acts as though it has for the purposes of, e.g., gravitational bending.

A photon has zero rest mass and hence has zero mass. If you're a physicist and you disagree, you're out of the mainstream. It can, howeveer, have (finite) momentum, which goes to the point about it being in motion.

The image is from here:
 

Attachments

A photon has zero rest mass and hence has zero mass. If you're a physicist and you disagree, you're out of the mainstream. It can, however, have (finite) momentum, which goes to the point about it being in motion.



Well, no. Not only does it depend on your definition of “mainstream”, i.e., “Does Special Relativity hold true, does one embrace the Copenhagen interpretation or the many-universes interpretation or the transactional interpreationl, etc., etc., etc.”, but a quick look

here
will show that there are a variety of papers-literally hundreds-detailing experiments and calculations directed at, or at least touching on determining the upper limit of photon “rest mass.” Here’s an abstract for just one of them:





Because classical Maxwellian electromagnetism has been one of the cornerstones of physics during the past century, experimental tests of its foundations are always of considerable interest. Within that context, one of the most important efforts of this type has historically been the search for a rest mass of the photon. The effects of a nonzero photon rest mass can be incorporated into electromagnetism straightforwardly through the Proca equations, which are the simplest relativistic generalization of Maxwell's equations. Using them, it is possible to consider some far-reaching implications of a massive photon, such as variation of the speed of light, deviations in the behaviour of static electromagnetic fields, longitudinal electromagnetic radiation and even questions of gravitational deflection. All of these have been studied carefully using a number of different approaches over the past several decades. This review attempts to assess the status of our current knowledge and understanding of the photon rest mass, with particular emphasis on a discussion of the various experimental methods that have been used to set upper limits on it. All such tests can be most easily categorized in terms of terrestrial and extra-terrestrial approaches, and the review classifies them as such. Up to now, there has been no conclusive evidence of a finite mass for the photon, with the results instead yielding ever more stringent upper bounds on the size of it, thus confirming the related aspects of Maxwellian electromagnetism with concomitant precision. Of course, failure to find a finite photon mass in any one experiment or class of experiments is not proof that it is identically zero and, even as the experimental limits move more closely towards the fundamental bounds of measurement uncertainty, new conceptual approaches to the task continue to appear. The intrinsic importance of the question and the lure of what might be revealed by attaining the next decimal place are as strong a draw on this question as they are in any other aspect of precise tests of physical laws.[/B]


That does a fair job of at least explaining the debate, and the reasons why the rest mass of the photon is not necessarily a hard and fast figure of zero.



The mass of the photon depends on the theory you apply. For example, in quantum field theory it is defined to be the massless particle which is due to gauge symmetry of the field equations, and it’s relatively seamless merger with electromagnetism , while in string theory it is a string with a certain normal mode vibration which makes the string having the properties of a photon. The only reason the photon is asserted to be massless is that it makes the wave/particle interactions work-in fact, for string theory, it can and does have one of several defined ‘rest masses” I won’t even get into supersymmetry or other assorted models, though I will distinguish the photons behavior in the three (some might say two) prevailing interpretations of the quantum universe.Suffice it to say that to assert that the figure is zero, and that photons must therefore be massless is to accept a sort of mathematical convenience-a conceit, if you will-that allows the majority of the math to work.


Of course, I can also find a bunch of papers asserting that the gamma ray is not photons, or ones like the original “bong-hitty” article posted for this thread.It’s also a fairly common mistake to think of the photon as a particle-rather than the quantification of light’s particle-like attributes.


Arguments about “effective mass” vs “rest mass” notwithstanding, the figure for the upper limit of “rest mass” is constantly moving away from zero-the problem being that it makes various parts of Special Relativity-which is inherently flawed, though sometimes correct-not work. This is somewhat important given the orginal intent of this thread, an exploration of time travel paradoxes.

What should really bend your nogginÂ’, given the data, is whether the photon takes up spaceÂ…..
 
The link didn't work for me. However, we seem to be in agreement. Mainstream physics, of the sort taught in colleges and universities, teaches that the photon has zero rest mass. Experiemental studies don't contradict it but also aren't as confirming as might be hoped, and unaccepted theories like string theory say any number of wild things. Sure, that could turn out to be right...but if you currently accept string theory but reject QCD then you're not in the mainstream.

I too am suspicious of the group-theoretic mathematical reasoning that leads to the Standard Model--it's just too pat--but it is the mainstream.

Your post lists numerous contradictory theories (relativity, quantum theory, string theory). Different things happen in different subversions of these theories. But there's a clear mainstream. If you take Modern Physics as an undergrad. in college, you'll study (special) relativity and basic quantum theory. You'll be taught that photons are massless in the former since otherwise they'd have infinite mass when traveling at light speed, and that they're massless in the latter for other mathematical reasons.

Anything else may be interesting, but isn't accepted physics.
 
arnisador said:
The link didn't work for me. However, we seem to be in agreement. Mainstream physics, of the sort taught in colleges and universities, teaches that the photon has zero rest mass. Experiemental studies don't contradict it but also aren't as confirming as might be hoped, and unaccepted theories like string theory say any number of wild things. Sure, that could turn out to be right...but if you currently accept string theory but reject QCD then you're not in the mainstream.

I too am suspicious of the group-theoretic mathematical reasoning that leads to the Standard Model--it's just too pat--but it is the mainstream.

Your post lists numerous contradictory theories (relativity, quantum theory, string theory). Different things happen in different subversions of these theories. But there's a clear mainstream. If you take Modern Physics as an undergrad. in college, you'll study (special) relativity and basic quantum theory. You'll be taught that photons are massless in the former since otherwise they'd have infinite mass when traveling at light speed, and that they're massless in the latter for other mathematical reasons.

Anything else may be interesting, but isn't accepted physics.

Jeff,

I agree that many of the theories disagree, which was my original comment, no matter how simple to these much more indepth explanations that followed.

The question I have, is only having an Undergrad Degree, and some (few) masters courses, but nothing in Physics directly, where did I come up with a non-mainstream understanding or approach? Is it because I was studying in the late 80's before it became Mainstream? or is it something that I just picked up from some instructor(s) that may have offered non-mainstream discussions?

So, what I am really asking is when did it become mainstream, that would help me out in trying to understand, what I have learned, and read.

Thanks
 
arnisador said:
You'll be taught that photons are massless in the former since otherwise they'd have infinite mass when traveling at light speed, and that they're massless in the latter for other mathematical reasons.

Anything else may be interesting, but isn't accepted physics.
You'll be taught that photons are massless because the math makes it agree with Maxzwellian electomagnetics-at work I regularly accelerate protons to about 84% of c, and we do see relativistic effectsAt othe accelerators, like CERN, and SNS when and if it ever goes on line, protons are accelerated to light speed, and we see true relativistic effects, where the particle continues to 'accelerate" and doesn't pick up speed, just increases in mass, and thus, energy . The only problem with the whole "infinite mass" thing, aside from just being wrong is that the math doesn't work.

Or are you going to tell me that the "rest mass" of a proton is zero as well?

Anyway, I want to get into the whole "time travel" thing in a bit.....
 
elder999 said:
You'll be taught that photons are massless because the math makes it agree
Yup, it's a model.

Newtonian mechanics was wrong too, but it was the standard, mainstream model for centuries. Being the current theory doesn't make one right--science marches forward, constantly improving its models. Maybe the next big model will have a photon that has a nonzero rest mass--who knows? It was a big surprise when DeBroglie said a photon was both a wave and a particle, after all.

You get a proton to c exactly? That's cool.
 
Rich Parsons said:
So, what I am really asking is when did it become mainstream, that would help me out in trying to understand, what I have learned, and read.
The massless photon? I think it goes back to at least the 30s or so. I don't know what earlier theories were. The Standard Model started firming up in the 50s but in its current formulation is from the early 70s, I think.
 
arnisador said:
Yup, it's a model.

Newtonian mechanics was wrong too, but it was the standard, mainstream model for centuries. Being the current theory doesn't make one right--science marches forward, constantly improving its models. Maybe the next big model will have a photon that has a nonzero rest mass--who knows? It was a big surprise when DeBroglie said a photon was both a wave and a particle, after all.

You get a proton to c exactly? That's cool.
Have a look here.

The proton synchotron (PS) is the switchyard of CERN. All the particles used in experiments at CERN go through the PS, are accelerated to the speed of light, and fed to other machines in the complex. The PS is the oldest of CERNÂ’s accelerators, and has been running continuously since 1959.
Of course <harrumph w/handwaving> it's probably more like 99.9999999% of c, but who's counting?:lol:
 
Anyway, back to time travel. Anyone familiar with the two-slit experiment? you should be,it illustrates a key principle of quantum mechanics: Light has a dual nature. Sometimes light behaves like a compact particle, a photon; sometimes it seems to behave like a wave spread out in space, just like the ripples in a pond. In the experiment, light— a stream of photons— shines through two parallel slits and hits a strip of photographic film behind the slits. The experiment can be run two ways: with photon detectors right beside each slit that allow physicists to observe the photons as they pass, or with detectors removed, which allows the photons to travel unobserved. When physicists use the photon detectors, the result is unsurprising: Every photon is observed to pass through one slit or the other. The photons, in other words, act like particles.

But when the photon detectors are removed, something weird occurs. One would expect to see two distinct clusters of dots on the film, corresponding to where individual photons hit after randomly passing through one slit or the other. Instead, a pattern of alternating light and dark stripes appears. Such a pattern could be produced only if the photons are behaving like waves, with each individual photon spreading out and surging against both slits at once, like a breaker hitting a jetty. Alternating bright stripes in the pattern on the film show where crests from those waves overlap; dark stripes indicate that a crest and a trough have canceled each other.

The outcome of the experiment depends on what the physicists try to measure: If they set up detectors beside the slits, the photons act like ordinary particles, always traversing one route or the other, not both at the same time. In that case the striped pattern doesn't appear on the film. But if the physicists remove the detectors, each photon seems to travel both routes simultaneously like a tiny wave, producing the striped pattern.

It also, oddly, demonstrates that photons-and electrons, when they're used for the experiment-can be in two places at the same time, and that particular effect, while of much interest to me in a portion of my work, is particularly germane to this conversationÂ… it doesn't exactly reconcile itself with the Copenhagen or the many-universes interpretation of quantum theory, although those are, as arnisador pointed out, also just models-one of my favorite phrases by the way, given my engineer's aesthetic. Why do you think the whole "massles photon" thing gets me so riled up?

Anyway, Sir Roger Penrose helped come up with a third model called the transactional model. I won't bother explaining it (another aesthetic: if I can't make it so simple that my mom the shrink will understand, I don't bother messing up the explanation) but I will say that it reconciles the "many universes" and Copenhagen" interpretations, and explains why photons and electrons can be two places at once, and more complex bundles of quanta-like matter, which includes us can't. This is important to the whole "grandfather paradox" because it pretty much shows that you not only can't go back in time and kill your grandfather, you pretty much can't go back in time, because in order to do so (to my engineer's aesthetic applied to the reconciliation of "many universes") you'd have to access an alternate universe with a "backwards running time stream, (as theorized by more thatn one person) to travel back-at which time your "matter" would be in two places at "the same time". Just can't be,m at least not simply. At best, you could "travel" back in time in some sort of stasis at a fixed point, at your desk, for example, and then travel forward again.
 
arnisador said:
The massless photon? I think it goes back to at least the 30s or so. I don't know what earlier theories were. The Standard Model started firming up in the 50s but in its current formulation is from the early 70s, I think.


Well I remember both theories and models, and know that many still use the Newtonian Model(s) for they work in many ways. I just wonder how I got it stuck in my head that the mainstream model was not it.

Oh Well.
 
Certainly, engineering couldn't be done without Newtonian mechanics. The objection to it is mostly philosophical.

If you were exposed to multiple theories, I'd say you got a better education than most! As elder999 makes clear, there are other theories out there, and while they aren't accepted, they aren't crackpot theories either. String theory gets a lot of respect--but no one but its proselytizers would currently say "Yes, this is the best known model of how the universe works at a fundamental level." If you were forced to design something right now that involved elementary particles (I have no idea what this would be--a quantum computer, maybe?), you'd base your calculations on the Standard Model and all that goes with it. Anything else wouldn't stand up in court if it failed--you'd have built a failed device using unproven theories. It's much more legally defensible, of course, to build a failed device using proven theories!
 
Meanwhile...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20050708/sc_space/teleportationexpresslanespacetravel

Think Star Trek: You are here. You want to go there. It's just a matter of teleportation.

Thanks to lab experiments, there is growth in the number of "beam me up" believers, but there is an equal amount of disbelief, too.

Over the last few years, however, researchers have successfully teleported beams of light across a laboratory bench. Also, the quantum state of a trapped calcium ion to another calcium ion has been teleported in a controlled way.
 
arnisador said:
Certainly, engineering couldn't be done without Newtonian mechanics. The objection to it is mostly philosophical.

If you were forced to design something right now that involved elementary particles (I have no idea what this would be--a quantum computer, maybe?), you'd base your calculations on the Standard Model and all that goes with it. Anything else wouldn't stand up in court if it failed--you'd have built a failed device using unproven theories. It's much more legally defensible, of course, to build a failed device using proven theories!
I can't provide a link, but:

(This is from a Lab Newsletter, and is for public dissemination.)

Los Alamos National Lab physicist Wojciech Zurek of the Theoretical (T) Division and
his team of students, recently proved a mathematical theorem supporting quantum Darwinism
— a quantum form of natural selection. Quantum Darwinism sheds new light on
the workings of environment-induced superselection or einselection — a process proposed
quarter century ago to explain the behavior of quantum systems that are
open (that is, that continue to interact, however, weakly, with their surroundings). In
quantum Darwinism “survival of the fittest” is key.



Zurek presented the theory three years ago in order to explain how objective, classical
properties — the essence of our familiar everyday reality — emerge from a
quantum substrate of our universe. Now, the results obtained by Zurek and his coworkers
support this initial hypothesis. Before diving into the significance of the
equations, however, one must comprehend the underpinnings of the theory.

Simply put, instead of the classical world most individuals thought they were
casually viewing, people are actually observing the multiple imprints of the “most
fit” quantum states called pointer states that are made by the system on the state of
the environment. These special stable quantum states emerge from the quantum
mush to become good candidates for classical states. They can persist for a long time
without being affected by the environment. Their stability is the reason for the success
in making multiple imprints on the environment — multiple “copies of
themselves” — that we then detect.



Because of the abundance of the information about these pointer states and the
indirect nature of our observations that involve only a small part of the environment,
these states do not get “messed up.” Rather, they continue to persist and
propagate surviving multiple observations.



Zurek says that quantum Darwinism is a natural extension of decoherence, a
theory that explains how open quantum systems interacting with their environments
differ from closed, completely isolated systems.



To understand the origins of decoherence, a short history lesson is in order. “The
old way of thinking of the forefathers of quantum mechanics assumed that all systems
are isolated, and that measurement involves a direct interaction — that one
must ‘bump into the system’ to observe it. Scientists at the time did not recognize
that the environment was bumping into the system as well,” said Zurek.

Decoherence describes what happens as a result of such “measurements” carried out
by fragments of the environment. In effect, it shows that an open quantum system
ceases to respect the quantum principle of superposition, which is the key to its
“quantumness.”



Theory of decoherence — developed by Zurek and others over the past quarter century
— is now especially relevant in quantum engineering. For instance, to build a quantum computer one must make sure to limit the impact of the environment to eliminate decoherence.



But quantum Darwinism shows that decoherence is not the whole story. Zurek explains, “Recently, we realized that there was an extra twist — we never directly bump into a system to measure its state. We actually use the environment that has already bumped into the system to find out about it.”



For instance, now, when you are looking at this post, you are not interacting with the screen directly. Rather, your eyes are intercepting photons that have already interacted with thescreen. According to Zurek, this is how you observe — how you get information.



“In quantum Darwinism the environment becomes the middle man, the communication
channel through which the information is propagated from the systems to the
observer,” he said.



Another piece of the puzzle that eventually led to the culmination of what is now known as quantum Darwinism is the fact that one never observes the entirety of the environment. Instead, individuals observe merely a fraction of the environment (e.g, the tiny fraction of all photons that have interacted with this screen fall into our eyes), but still can see the same systems in the same states — all the observers get the same big picture. This means that many copies of the same information must have proliferated throughout the environment.



How did this “advertising” happen? Why is the information about some states readily proliferatingwhile data about competing alternatives (their quantum superpositions, which according to thequantum superposition principle are “equally good” when a quantum system is closed) are in effect extinct?



Zurek and his team have demonstrated in a sequence of papers that the already familiar pointer states that are distinguished by their ability to survive decoherence are the same states that advertise best — states that are easiest to find by intercepting small fragments of the environment.



This makes sense: pointer states live on. Survival is the precondition to reproduction — be it proliferation of the species or of information. And only pointer states can continue to be measured by the environment without suffering any ill effects of such inquisition (in contrast to their fragile superpositions). So, as time passes, they tend to leave a redundant, prolific and, thus, noticeable imprint on the environment.



Zurek and his team of students were able to prove the identity of pointer states and states the are easiest to find from a small fraction of the environment through a complex, yet rigorous, sequence of equations. They show, for example, how much of the environment one needs to intercept to find out all one can find out about the system without intercepting all of the environment — e.g. every last photon.



For those who are intrigued by the unique wisdom behind quantum Darwinism but still unclear as to its real-world implications, the whole idea sounds a bit intangible. However, of late, such seemingly abstract results as illustrated in the photon example above are increasingly valuable for applications.



For instance, “smaller is better” is the mantra of nanotechnology, computer hardware and other high-tech areas. And, things begin to be more susceptible to “quantum weirdness” as they get smaller. For instance, if the size of the smallest fragments of computer chips continues its downward spiral in size at a present rate (halving the size every 16 months or so — the so called “Moore’s law”) then in adecade or two researchers will have to deal with individual atoms, and, hence, individual quanta. According to Zurek, that is where quantum Darwinism enters the picture.



“Understanding what happens on the quantum-classical interface helps us prepare the necessary documents for this inevitable border crossing.”
 
I main thing to remember is that if people could go back in time, then someone would have spotted it by now. It is all very well having a theory, but ultimately it is not possible, so any theories are really just the workings of bored/drunk astrophysics professors with little else to think about.

Wouldn't it be great though to have your own "ground hog day". Just imagine, you could learn a whole new system without aging or spending more than a day doing it! That would be cool.

This bit is just getting silly though:

"If we don't know your father is alive right now - if there is only a 90% chance that he is alive right now, then there is a chance that you can go back and kill him. But if you know he is alive, there is no chance you can kill him."


This is all nonsense. Basically, these scientists just talk a load of gibberish and then decorate their words with a few fancy scientific terms and mention that they have a PhD and we are all expected to say "wow, that's amazing".



I tried to do astrophysics and failed. I am not bitter though.
 
maybe one day, someone will invent a time machine that will go back into time for us and even be able to bring back objects like rocks or blank pieces of paper.
well, a time capsule sortof does this by sending' things off into the future. rather simply preparing the things, like pictures, videos, scientific data, etc to be discovered later.

of course i do believe that i could not find any timecapsule if i or someone had not prepared it.

but once we probe the nature of those 'gateways' into the past or present, then it is almost clear that the material aspect of our being is more like a catalyst than the main subject of the reaction known as being.

could not communication be seen as a type of motion. thing is that communication is not always easy to measure. rather, communication by itself as we define it, is not something that is measureable in any widely accepted way. other than the present maybe, or possibly by stretching and transcending the common notions of communication.
i think the whole problem lies in the 3rd principle. there is the observed as we are observing it' and there is the observer as we are also the observer. i know this sounds the same but i don't think it always is.

so if i were to propose that like stated earlier in the buddhist way that
there is no past or present and that it is illusion, or to say as above that: if we cannot at all travel to the past or the future in any way whatsover, then what is left?
i would even go further and ask then, what is the purpose of living?

as we are constantly remembering the past and some propose that a part of our perceptual apparatus is continuously scanning the future.
to me it seems that before one can have a strategy- a quantam strategy. this is a huge factor. like in any battle, one would need to be very clear as to what one is. i mean the self, the friends and foes. a sense of identity without which life would become unbearably cosmic and probably empty or futile. so the illusion of self, is greater still than the illusion of time or space. yet it may be called illusion or symbolic, but it can also be called real-this could be seen as a matter of preference.

if i were to say: learn from the past, love or accept the present, pray for the future.
this is doesn't sound very scientific. however, if we were to take it apart and ask...who or what are we learning from? what are we in the first place?, and who or what could we possibly be praying to or hoping for?- it slowly becomes clear what an active role one plays in determining ones part in everything if not the everything itself.

i can see it happening that one passes time quicker by going slower and slower by going quicker. however, these rules not being enough, one would have to figure out strategy i mentioned and then furthermore i believe it can't be that easy. there must be other factors (other worlds) as relatively speaking it would depend on the speed of the mind rather than the speed of the body. and the speed of the mind can with simple logic calculate many things that are probable or improbable. and that's just simple logic with material things mostly. the theory of relativity also stating according to my understanding that matter is a condensed form of energy.
this seems to be reflected in my understanding that we must constantly be jumping back and forth between that which real and that which is symbolic.
this becomes more evident when we study language and communication.
i think this most natural aspect of being within a timeframe is something so simple it's almost blasphemous.

time flies when your having fun.


j
 

Latest Discussions

Back
Top