Got my butt whopped by a Kickboxing champion until I started jabbing him

[Tony Dismukes]

Leggings are cool.

Lots of BJJ guys are wearing them now for no-gi. I'm just not willing to spend the money unless prices come down.

 

[drop bear]

Lots of BJJ guys are wearing them now for no-gi. I'm just not willing to spend the money unless prices come down.

You can get them cheap on eBay. Skins you of course have to take out a mortgage for.

 

[Tez3]

He's confident in his masculinity. He doesn't feel the need to conform to artificial societal dictates regarding gender specific clothing.

Well it might be more upset about the fit, tailoring made for the female form doesn't suit the male form. still I'm sure he'll make a good soprano ( or castrato)

 

[punisher73]

The majority of mma fighters take boxing classes. That's just a fact.

Depends on the gym, the trainer and the fighter. You have certain guys like Diaz brothers who got their start in BJJ and then trained in boxing to add to their game and were very successful about it. There are certain gyms like Straight Blast Gym under Matt Thorton who do BJJ/Boxing as well.

If you look at the main MMA gyms in the US, then you will usually find the main mix to be BJJ/Wrestling/Muay Thai. Again, depending on the gym that mix will vary and the base art will vary depending on the head coaches emphasis. For example, is it a striking emphasis gym that supplements with grappling or vice versa.

 

[punisher73]

Well, you guys want to let him off the hook (punt intended) due to his mma backgrund. Although it was probably less common back in Ruttens time, today most if not all MMA-guys take boxing classes and some are quite decent, like Nate Diaz and Conor Mcgregor.

You do realize that even in "boxing" different trainers teach the basic punches a little bit different right? For example, some teach the jab as a vertical punch meant to slide through the opponent's guard, others will teach it with the twist to try and tear skin with your gloves. Others don't care. You realize that there are also different VERSIONS of the basic jab, like the "left jolt" that Dempsey taught or using the arm only for a "speed jab"?

When it comes to hook punches, some teach a vertical fist configuration when landing and others a horizontal landing with the palm down. Then you get into different distances for the hook punch. Purists will say that the only true "hook punch" has the elbow bent at 90 degrees or tighter and is only used close in (elbow range). Others will open up the elbow and use it from a distance, what the purists would call a roundhouse "swing". Some boxing trainers say that there is no rear hand hook punch and that it is a swing and the only true hook punch is done with the lead hand. Then we get into traditional martial arts and a hook punch and you have various methods of throwing it properly as well, look at how Isshin-Ryu throws it in comparision to a kung fu style.

So, to say that Bas Rutten throws it "wrong" is ignorant of the many CORRECT ways of throwing a proper hook punch based on the style and the environment it is being used for.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

You do realize that even in "boxing" different trainers teach the basic punches a little bit different right? For example, some teach the jab as a vertical punch meant to slide through the opponent's guard, others will teach it with the twist to try and tear skin with your gloves. Others don't care. You realize that there are also different VERSIONS of the basic jab, like the "left jolt" that Dempsey taught or using the arm only for a "speed jab"?

When it comes to hook punches, some teach a vertical fist configuration when landing and others a horizontal landing with the palm down. Then you get into different distances for the hook punch. Purists will say that the only true "hook punch" has the elbow bent at 90 degrees or tighter and is only used close in (elbow range). Others will open up the elbow and use it from a distance, what the purists would call a roundhouse "swing". Some boxing trainers say that there is no rear hand hook punch and that it is a swing and the only true hook punch is done with the lead hand. Then we get into traditional martial arts and a hook punch and you have various methods of throwing it properly as well, look at how Isshin-Ryu throws it in comparision to a kung fu style.

So, to say that Bas Rutten throws it "wrong" is ignorant of the many CORRECT ways of throwing a proper hook punch based on the style and the environment it is being used for.

Exactly. There are some differences between optimal application of boxing in a boxing match vs a MMA match however the stylistic variation within the ranks of pro boxers is just about as great as the variation between a "typical" boxing style and a "typical" boxing for MMA style. Some approaches to boxing need very little tweaking to work for MMA, others need more.

 

[JR 137]

If you look at the main MMA gyms in the US, then you will usually find the main mix to be BJJ/Wrestling/Muay Thai. Again, depending on the gym that mix will vary and the base art will vary depending on the head coaches emphasis. For example, is it a striking emphasis gym that supplements with grappling or vice versa.

Curiosity question...

Why train both BJJ and wrestling? I understand a wrestler training BJJ (or judo) to add submission and chokes, but why would a BJJer (or judoka) train wrestling?

For the throws?

I've got a lot of wrestling experience. I'd dabble in BJJ or judo for chokes and submission for more effective (imo) "street defense." But if I had significant experience in BJJ or judo, I wouldn't be looking for wrestling to gain a street defense edge.

I don't have any experience with BJJ or judo, aside from a few friends who I haven't talked to in a while, so I'm probably missing something.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Curiosity question...

Why train both BJJ and wrestling? I understand a wrestler training BJJ (or judo) to add submission and chokes, but why would a BJJer (or judoka) train wrestling?

For the throws?

I've got a lot of wrestling experience. I'd dabble in BJJ or judo for chokes and submission for more effective (imo) "street defense." But if I had significant experience in BJJ or judo, I wouldn't be looking for wrestling to gain a street defense edge.

I don't have any experience with BJJ or judo, aside from a few friends who I haven't talked to in a while, so I'm probably missing something.

Wrestlers typically have better no-gi takedowns, takedown defense, stand ups, scrambles, and mat returns than an equivalently experienced BJJ practitioner. (They're also usually better conditioned, but that's more of a training culture thing.)

To my mind, Judo, BJJ, Sombo, and wrestling are all just different facets of the same gem. They overlap a lot, but each has areas of specialization that they excel in.

 

[drop bear]

Curiosity question...

Why train both BJJ and wrestling? I understand a wrestler training BJJ (or judo) to add submission and chokes, but why would a BJJer (or judoka) train wrestling?

For the throws?

I've got a lot of wrestling experience. I'd dabble in BJJ or judo for chokes and submission for more effective (imo) "street defense." But if I had significant experience in BJJ or judo, I wouldn't be looking for wrestling to gain a street defense edge.

I don't have any experience with BJJ or judo, aside from a few friends who I haven't talked to in a while, so I'm probably missing something.

For better situational immersion.

 

[JR 137]

Wrestlers typically have better no-gi takedowns, takedown defense, stand ups, scrambles, and mat returns than an equivalently experienced BJJ practitioner. (They're also usually better conditioned, but that's more of a training culture thing.)

To my mind, Judo, BJJ, Sombo, and wrestling are all just different facets of the same gem. They overlap a lot, but each has areas of specialization that they excel in.

Thanks, Tony. That makes sense.

I agree that they're "all just different facets of the same gem" with strengths in different areas. I feel pretty confident in the stuff you mentioned about wrestling. Avoiding single and double leg takedowns was by far my strongest area, followed by throws. I haven't been on the mat in about 3 years now and miss it a bit. Funny thing I always found is it's like riding a bike - once I get back on the mat after a long hiatus, it's like I never left. Well, except for the conditioning. That feels like it'll never come back no matter what I do.

I'd love to learn some basic submissions and chokes, but there's only so much time in the day, and once I started I wouldn't be able to say "that's good enough" and walk away. I tend to go too deep before I realize it.

 

[punisher73]

Curiosity question...

Why train both BJJ and wrestling? I understand a wrestler training BJJ (or judo) to add submission and chokes, but why would a BJJer (or judoka) train wrestling?

For the throws?

I've got a lot of wrestling experience. I'd dabble in BJJ or judo for chokes and submission for more effective (imo) "street defense." But if I had significant experience in BJJ or judo, I wouldn't be looking for wrestling to gain a street defense edge.

I don't have any experience with BJJ or judo, aside from a few friends who I haven't talked to in a while, so I'm probably missing something.

Tony pretty much covered it, but in the US most kids are exposed to wrestling through the school system so you have an excellent base already. It is much easier to add in the submissions of BJJ from this base. The other factor was wrestlers started to dominate in the UFC with their base and adding the "ground and pound" strategy to it. They knew how to get position and scramble and then pound out their opponent.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Lots of BJJ guys are wearing them now for no-gi. I'm just not willing to spend the money unless prices come down.

I picked some up as part of a no-gi set at BJJ HQ this past week. The entire set (rash guard, shorts, leggings) was $45. If I add a cape, I'll look like a very low-budget superhero.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I picked some up as part of a no-gi set at BJJ HQ this past week. The entire set (rash guard, shorts, leggings) was $45. If I add a cape, I'll look like a very low-budget superhero.

Great deal! Usually $45 would cover just one item in that set.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Great deal! Usually $45 would cover just one item in that set.

Yeah, that's why I had to have it. You know, for all that no-gi BJJ training I do.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, that's why I had to have it. You know, for all that no-gi BJJ training I do.

Yeah. Right. For the no gi huh?

 

[Tez3]

Did you know you can buy tattoo 'sleeves' now that you can put on to make it look like you have had your arms tattooed? So now you can look hard! All you need to intimidate people in the gym, tattoo sleeve, a UFC rash guard and lycra tights to show your assets off ( with groin guard in of course).

 

[Axiom]

Had another gym war with the kickboxer. Started well this time and threw a roundhouse kick clean on his stomach as hard as I could. But things went downhill from here. His dominance was mostly an initiave thing, but I'm trying to get used to his level of sparring intensity.

The jab out didn't work this time, for some reason. It only made it more difficult to transition and actually lost time rather than won, with my jab out. Also exposed the other side of my jaw which he banged with a full swing roundhouse kick. He claimed that he was going sem contanct, simply because full contact leads to warnings, and he took that hypotethical warning (.....):

 

[Tez3]

Had another gym war with the kickboxer. Started well this time and threw a roundhouse kick clean on his stomach as hard as I could. But things went downhill from here. His dominance was mostly an initiave thing, but I'm trying to get used to his level of sparring intensity.

The jab out didn't work this time, for some reason. It only made it more difficult to transition and actually lost time rather than won, with my jab out. Also exposed the other side of my jaw which he banged with a full swing roundhouse kick. He claimed that he was going sem contanct, simply because full contact leads to warnings, and he took that hypotethical warning (.....):

And? what do you want us to say? You need to train more and say less.

 

[punisher73]

And? what do you want us to say? You need to train more and say less.

Or maybe understand that when people spar they have different goals than to "always win" and that other guy may have been trying some new things due to his experience and the other persons lack of skill.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Had another gym war with the kickboxer. Started well this time and threw a roundhouse kick clean on his stomach as hard as I could. But things went downhill from here. His dominance was mostly an initiave thing, but I'm trying to get used to his level of sparring intensity.

The jab out didn't work this time, for some reason. It only made it more difficult to transition and actually lost time rather than won, with my jab out. Also exposed the other side of my jaw which he banged with a full swing roundhouse kick. He claimed that he was going sem contanct, simply because full contact leads to warnings, and he took that hypotethical warning (.....):

Here we see an illustration of my earlier point about over generalizing from limited information. Last time he had trouble with your jab, this time he didn't. This could be for a variety of reasons. Maybe he was holding back last time or working on something specific that didn't function well against your jab or he was having a bad day or maybe you genuinely did a good job and took him out of his game. This time he adapted to what you were doing and showed you that the jab isn't some sort of a magic weakness for kickboxers any more than the roundhouse kicks you were having trouble defending against are any sort of special weakness for TKD practitioners.