Good Tae Kwon Do History Books?

[puunui]

YOON, Kwe-Byung studied Shito Ryu Karate under Mabun Kenwa Sensei while he was he Chief Master of the Han Mu Kwan in Toyko in the late 40's. I've seen him listed from 4th to 7th in Shudokan depending upon the source. How accurate that is depends again upon whom one wishes to believe. Regardless of what rank he may have held, it is apparent that he was held in very high esteem by many Japanese seniors and contemporaries.

How is it apparent that Dr. Yon was held "in very high esteem by many Japanese seniors and contemporaries"? Where does that come from?

As a side note, the YMK/JDK/HMK thing isn't that big of a deal, at least not to me. It merely serves as one example that came to mind as I posted.

I would say it is a big deal for you, since you mention it so often.

I first heard of the schism from GM Lee Chong Woo in an interview from World Taekwondo in 1997 which was reprinted by Al Cole on one of the JDK sites.

You mean this page in this history section? http://taekwondojidokwan.com/ If so, then you learned about it recently. And it doesn't mention any "schism" in the article. However, the Chosun Yun Moo Kwan/Jidokwan section from the Modern History book immediately follows the GM LEE Chong Woo interview. Perhaps you were reading that and misunderstood that to be GM Lee's interview. But funny how you once again cite to a Korean source for information, instead of a non-Korean one, which you claim is less apt to be "biased".

 

[puunui]

I also had never heard of any TKD ties to Shito Ryu, but after Kong Soo Do claimed YOON, Kwe-Byung's ties to Shito Ryu, I did a quick search on the net (I know, I know, such a reliable source.. .). Lacancha did have some information about YOON, Kwe-Byung's ties to Shito Ryu.

http://www.lacancha.com/gwebyungyoon.html

The source is credited to Kim Soo, of whom I know little about, so I cannot speak to his credibility. However, it is interesting to see a source claiming the tie.

Well, at least we now know where Kong Soo Do got his information from, spelling errors and all:

GM Kim Soo: He was known as YOON, Kwe-byung or by his original name "Yoon, Ui-byung". He was the Chief Master at Han Mu Kwan in Tokyo in 1947 which had ties to Grandmaster Kanken Toyama's Shuto-Kan. In addition to studying under Grandmaster Kanken Toyama, he also studied under Mabun Kenwa the founder of Shito-Ryu.

Kong Soo Do: YOON, Kwe-Byung studied Shito Ryu Karate under Mabun Kenwa Sensei while he was he Chief Master of the Han Mu Kwan in Toyko in the late 40's.

Here's my input: When Dr. Yon Kwai Byeong was a high school student in Osaka, he studied Karate under MABUNI Kenwa Sensei. I do not know if he was calling his art Shito Ryu or something else at the time. This was in the late 30's or so. Dr. Yon went on to college at Nihon Daigaku in Tokyo, he began studying under TOYAMA Kanken Sensei. In 1940, Dr. Yon along with other Korean expats started the Kanbukan (Han Moo Kwan in Korean) which was a place where Koreans living in Japan could train in the martial arts. Many styles were represented, including Shotokan, and others. Dr. Yon moved back to Korea in 1949 I believe, where he was briefly a member of the Chosun Yun Moo Kwan under GM CHUN Sang Sup before the outbreak of the Korean War in 1950. When GM Chun was lost or missing in the war, Dr. Yon was approached by the seniors, including GM LEE Chong Woo, to take over as the Chief Instructor. Also, because they were no longer training out of the Yun Moo Kwan (which was a judo school), they decided to change the name to Jidokwan. Dr. Yon remained the Jidokwanjang until the mid 1960's. Dr.. Yon, like his teacher MABUNI Kenwa Sensei, was very much into sparring and competition oriented martial arts. In fact, it was on one of his exchange trips (with GM HWANG Kee) to Japan where the first hogu were brought back to Korea. Dr. Yon also gave many scholarships to primarily Jidokwan member to Korea University, where he was teaching. Many famous champions were part of this scholarship program, names many would instantly recognize today.

 

[puunui]

The only source I could find that listed him as a 7th dan is from your instructor's site. There is a list of 5th-8th dans that he handed out that you can find in Toyama, Kanken's book Karate-Do Tai Hokan. Yoon, Kwe-byung is not listed there. Kim, Ki-whang and In, Byun-yoon are.

There is a list of titles but not dan ranking contained in Toyama Sensei's book which you can find on his wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanken_Tōyama

It does list GM KIM Ki Whang on there; however in the original book, GM Kim's name is not listed. Both GM YOON Byung In and GM Yon Kwai Byeong are listed as shihan. However, the title shihan (sabum in korean) was not regarded as a "high" title. The Butokukai, for example, recognized Renshi, Kyoshi and Hanshi as titles, but not shihan. So I question how "high" or in how much esteem the Shihan were held.

[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TD]In Hei Jin (Yun Byon In)[/TD]
[TD]Shihan[/TD]
[TD]Seoul, Korea Dojo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]In ? Hei (Yun Uoi Byon)[/TD]
[TD]Shihan[/TD]
[TD]Tokyo Kanbukan (Korean Martial Hall) Director
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[oftheherd1]

No there was no misunderstanding. Even if I use your wording the line of logic still makes no sense. How can a Non-Korean sources inevitably get their information from Korean sources. The only difference is which tier they received it. Did they get it directly from the source vs. somone who is 2nd - 8th generation under the source? So how is it they can be less biased? ...

I have not followed this discussion much, inasmuch as it seemed there was a lot of attempts to split hairs and engage in less than convivial discussion. But I was just too curious about the above paragraph and the original one by you; not to ask about and comment about some things. First, I guess I am just dense, but your 3rd sentance above just doesn't compute with me, considering your apparent defense of Korean sources as less biased, or at least no more biased than non-Korean sources. Why would it be important that non-Korean sources could not get the information from Korean sources?

As to your comment on following logic, I am baffled, but then I make no claim to being a philosopher. However, imperically, I can tell you that I have often seen literature from Korean schools attempting to show Korean martial arts history back to Hwa Rang Do, or beyond, in Korea. Although there were certainly martial arts, I am not sure how much survived Japanese occupation. Dr. Kimm, in his first book on Hapkido, makes the same claims for Hapkido. Yet I think it is pretty well accepted that Hapkido was founded by GM Choi, based on training he received in Japan. I have read some who state that is understandable considering the resurgence of nationalism after the end of WWII, and then the end of the Korean War. That is believable, but I was not there to know, nor can I quote any sources that I can prove are reliable.

Yes, not all the Kwans dove right into the unification process. There was never a dispute saying that it was sunshine and roses. Both the Moodukkwan and the Jidokwan at one time or another dove in, got out, dove in got out and then finally dove in.

Your choice of words makes it seem the different Korean martial arts schools willingly came together to become TKD only. I had heard differently, but can't recall at this time where I heard it. It may have been in the 79-81 timeframe when I was searching for a Mu Duk Kwan school in Seoul, Korea. I couldn't find one and began asking around why. As I recall hearing, the Korean Government was attempting to unify all Korean martial arts under the TKD umbrella and governance. Most found themselves unable to resist the pressure. The then Korean president's brother was affiliated with the Korean Hapkido Federation, and helped them resist. Tang Soo Do also resisted for a long time, but apparently came under TKD influence, but retained some autonomy. If I have made any errors, I hope you or someone will correct me so I will know better.

...

Just some thoughts sir, and hoping you can clear up my confusion.

Just for the record, assuming as I must, without any reason to think otherwise, that the four main principles in the discussion on Korean Martial Arts history have researched from sources they have then evaluated for, and are having some honest disagreements, I have enjoyed reading the information provided.

 

[miguksaram]

Just some thoughts sir, and hoping you can clear up my confusion.

How can a Non-Korean sources inevitably get their information from Korean sources.

This is from me not proof reading my statements prior to posting. What it should have read is How can Non-Koreans sources NOT inevitably get their information from Korean sources. My point was that all non-Korean sources' information has roots in Korean sources, so to say that a Non-Korean source is more reliable or less biased makes no sense because their information comes from a Korean source.

However, imperically, I can tell you that I have often seen literature from Korean schools attempting to show Korean martial arts history back to Hwa Rang Do, or beyond, in Korea. Although there were certainly martial arts, I am not sure how much survived Japanese occupation. Dr. Kimm, in his first book on Hapkido, makes the same claims for Hapkido. Yet I think it is pretty well accepted that Hapkido was founded by GM Choi, based on training he received in Japan. I have read some who state that is understandable considering the resurgence of nationalism after the end of WWII, and then the end of the Korean War. That is believable, but I was not there to know, nor can I quote any sources that I can prove are reliable.

Yes. The whole notion of TKD coming from the Hwarangdo and Taekkyon, was started, I believe, by Gen Choi. This was due to President Rhee's comment "That is Taekkyon" which he made at the first demonstration of Taekwondo. From there the fabrication began. Many schools jumped on the bandwagon with this from both sides of the fense. Why? I can only speculate. I would guess mostly that it was due to pride more than anything else. However, from my experience, many of the Korean masters were very open to their training and history if you were sincere enough to ask. They would never talk about the mystical Hwarangdo connection and instead tell you about the actual source. I have never read Dr. Kimm's book so I cannot comment about what history he put in there. Glenn would be a much better source on that.

Your choice of words makes it seem the different Korean martial arts schools willingly came together to become TKD only. I had heard differently, but can't recall at this time where I heard it. It may have been in the 79-81 timeframe when I was searching for a Mu Duk Kwan school in Seoul, Korea. I couldn't find one and began asking around why. As I recall hearing, the Korean Government was attempting to unify all Korean martial arts under the TKD umbrella and governance. Most found themselves unable to resist the pressure. The then Korean president's brother was affiliated with the Korean Hapkido Federation, and helped them resist. Tang Soo Do also resisted for a long time, but apparently came under TKD influence, but retained some autonomy. If I have made any errors, I hope you or someone will correct me so I will know better.

I cannot speak about what happened with HKD group as I have not really done in depth history research on that. However, for TKD, we can establish that at one point all of the kwans were in. However there were a couple of times when both the Jidokwan and the Moodukkwan jumped out of the unification process. The overall Jidokwan group did finally join, though there were some members that did break away to do their own thing. As for the Moodukkwan, Hwang-ki decided that unifying under TKD did not seem like the best idea for him and his school. However, many of his seniors disagreed with that notion. As a result, there was a split in his group. Many of his seniors joined the TKD movement, while Hwang-ki and the others remained a separate entity. I hope this helps.

 

[oftheherd1]

First, thanks for your reply.

This is from me not proof reading my statements prior to posting. What it should have read is How can Non-Koreans sources NOT inevitably get their information from Korean sources. My point was that all non-Korean sources' information has roots in Korean sources, so to say that a Non-Korean source is more reliable or less biased makes no sense because their information comes from a Korean source.

I thought that might have been what you meant, but didn't want to put words in your mouth. I understand your point, but I think some Japanese sources have been quoted here on MT for different Koreans being students in Japan prior, during, or just after WWII. Granted, one has to be just a cautious about believing Japanese history about Korea. School rosters seem less political, but I would hope to independently verify those too if possible. I have never seen it mentioned, but there might be some records from China on the subject as well.

Yes. The whole notion of TKD coming from the Hwarangdo and Taekkyon, was started, I believe, by Gen Choi. This was due to President Rhee's comment "That is Taekkyon" which he made at the first demonstration of Taekwondo. From there the fabrication began. Many schools jumped on the bandwagon with this from both sides of the fense. Why? I can only speculate. I would guess mostly that it was due to pride more than anything else. However, from my experience, many of the Korean masters were very open to their training and history if you were sincere enough to ask. They would never talk about the mystical Hwarangdo connection and instead tell you about the actual source. I have never read Dr. Kimm's book so I cannot comment about what history he put in there. Glenn would be a much better source on that.

Basically, he promotes the history of Korean martial arts, specifically Hapkido, going back to Hwarang-Do in the Silla Dynasty.

I cannot speak about what happened with HKD group as I have not really done in depth history research on that. However, for TKD, we can establish that at one point all of the kwans were in. However there were a couple of times when both the Jidokwan and the Moodukkwan jumped out of the unification process. The overall Jidokwan group did finally join, though there were some members that did break away to do their own thing. As for the Moodukkwan, Hwang-ki decided that unifying under TKD did not seem like the best idea for him and his school. However, many of his seniors disagreed with that notion. As a result, there was a split in his group. Many of his seniors joined the TKD movement, while Hwang-ki and the others remained a separate entity. I hope this helps.

Well, I cannot, as I said, show or quote sources on that. I cannot even recall who I heard it from. I don't recall ever asking my GM about it. He was explicit on the history of Hapkido going back to GM Choi, based on GM Choi's study in Japan. The history of TKD and HKD didn't seem important. We were separate and that was just it.

Again, thanks for your reply. As I said, I have enjoyed everyone's postings on TKD history. It is interesting, just not from the point of a TKD student, since I am not.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

First, thanks for your reply.

Again, thanks for your reply. As I said, I have enjoyed everyone's postings on TKD history. It is interesting, just not from the point of a TKD student, since I am not.

Your very welcome. I'm glad that I could contribute in some small way. At the very least, a seeking individual will have plenty of resources in which to research this subject and come to their own informed decisions. I've enjoyed it as well.

 

[kbarrett]

Actually none of the Korean martial arts of today can trace their history before 1944, that was when GM Won Kuk Lee first brought "Okinwan Karate" to Korean calling his art "Tang Soo Do" Chung Do Kwan. Then came GM Hwang Kee teaching Hwa Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan (it failed) he started teaching Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan in 1947 (now it's Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan). Then ther was GM Choi Yong -Sool teaching Hapkido, and a few others teaching "Kong Soo Do", these where the martial arts in Korean at that time, and none can really trace their history before this time, no matter how badly they want to. Teak Kyeon and Yul Sul where both part of the old "Subak" before they split into different styles, all martial arts are deadly, no one martial art is more lethal than another, the history of today martial arts should be separate then the martial arts of yesterday because they have very different beginning they just aren't one in the same at all.

Ken

 

[mastercole]

Actually none of the Korean martial arts of today can trace their history before 1944, that was when GM Won Kuk Lee first brought "Okinwan Karate" to Korean calling his art "Tang Soo Do" Chung Do Kwan. Then came GM Hwang Kee teaching Hwa Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan (it failed) he started teaching Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan in 1947 (now it's Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan). Then ther was GM Choi Yong -Sool teaching Hapkido, and a few others teaching "Kong Soo Do", these where the martial arts in Korean at that time, and none can really trace their history before this time, no matter how badly they want to. Teak Kyeon and Yul Sul where both part of the old "Subak" before they split into different styles, all martial arts are deadly, no one martial art is more lethal than another, the history of today martial arts should be separate then the martial arts of yesterday because they have very different beginning they just aren't one in the same at all.

Ken

Ssirum and Taekkyon can both trace their histories back before 1944. Also, Taekkyon is not part of subak, where did you learn that at?

 

[rmclain]

Well the contact email for the the site is no longer valid, so I sent and email the GM Kim, Soo. I hope he will be able to assist. I will let you know if I hear anything.

Did you get in contact with Grandmaster Kim Soo?

I've personally been in his office in Houston, Texas and held the bong-sul book written by Yoon Kwe-byoung in Japan. He lists the dedication in the book to Mabuni Kenwa and Toyama Kanken. I don't remember if he called them his teachers in the dedication. But, Grandmaster Kim can tell you. Let me know if you have any trouble contacting him. He's traveling tomorrow from Busan to Houston.

R. McLain

 

[miguksaram]

Did you get in contact with Grandmaster Kim Soo?

I've personally been in his office in Houston, Texas and held the bong-sul book written by Yoon Kwe-byoung in Japan. He lists the dedication in the book to Mabuni Kenwa and Toyama Kanken. I don't remember if he called them his teachers in the dedication. But, Grandmaster Kim can tell you. Let me know if you have any trouble contacting him. He's traveling tomorrow from Busan to Houston.

R. McLain

Hello sir. No I have not heard from GM Kim Soo. However, I know he is an extremely busy man so I don't take it personally. If you can find out that would be great. Thank you.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Did you get in contact with Grandmaster Kim Soo?

I've personally been in his office in Houston, Texas and held the bong-sul book written by Yoon Kwe-byoung in Japan. He lists the dedication in the book to Mabuni Kenwa and Toyama Kanken. I don't remember if he called them his teachers in the dedication. But, Grandmaster Kim can tell you. Let me know if you have any trouble contacting him. He's traveling tomorrow from Busan to Houston.

R. McLain

This is very interesting, thank you. It would be very interesting to know the extent of the relationship between those three individuals.

 

[kbarrett]

Hi Master Cole,

Actually Ssirum was and still is Korean's original Wrestling martial arts, how ever Tae Kyon and Yu Sool where both part of the origianl Subak fighting art of Korea, subak dates back to 1170, tae Kyon and Yu Sool both came after they split apart from the original subak, I'd have do to research to remmber the exact date this separation took place. Tae Kyon remained a kicking and striking fighting art, while Yu Sool became more of a joint locking /grappling fighting art, when the Japanese occupation ended in 1945 there weren't any Korean fighting arts being taught at that time, Won Kuk Lee brought okinawan Karate to Korea calling it Tang Soo Do his Assoicaiton was the Chung Do Kwan which he established in 1945, at that time hwe call his martial art Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do, and other who had returned to Korea call their's either Kong Soo Do, Hapkido, Tang Soo Do, just to name a few. At that time Tae kyun wasn't being taught, I do believe however Yu Sool was starting to be taught once again in the late 1940's early 1950', it really wasn't until recently that (1990's) that Tae kyon starting taking a foot hold in Korean Martial Arts once again, and I learned all of this by studing and researching, I didn't just want ot practice Tang Soo Do I wanted to know everything about my MA and it's history, and the more I rearched the more I uncover about the origianl origins of Tang Soo Do and many other Korean MA.

 

[mastercole]

Hi Master Cole,
Actually Ssirum was and still is Korean's original Wrestling martial arts, how ever Tae Kyon and Yu Sool where both part of the origianl Subak fighting art of Korea, subak dates back to 1170, tae Kyon and Yu Sool both came after they split apart from the original subak, I'd have do to research to remmber the exact date this separation took place. Tae Kyon remained a kicking and striking fighting art, while Yu Sool became more of a joint locking /grappling fighting art,

Hello,

We (Taekkyon practitioners) learned that there is no clear relation between Taekkyon and Subyok, other than they are names from Korea's past. This is according to the foremost researcher and leader of Taekkyon in Korea, GM Yong Bok Lee.

Taekkyon and Ssirum are listed at the top of Korea's Ministry of Culture's traditional martial arts pyramid and have clearly defined roots and links to the ancient past. This was just recognized by UNESCO listing Taekkyon as a World Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity, the first martial art in history to earn this designation.

As for Subyok? No one really knows exactly what it was. The only thing we do know is that it was "clapping/striking of the hands." There is an attempt in Korea to revive Subyok and today it has several hundred practitioners, but again, there is no evidence of the techniques, so we don't know exactly what Subyok was, at this time.

When you write yusul, it makes me think of "hapkiyusul", which I believe was brought to Korea from Japan by GM Yong Sul Choi.

 

[puunui]

Actually Ssirum was and still is Korean's original Wrestling martial arts, how ever Tae Kyon and Yu Sool where both part of the origianl Subak fighting art of Korea, subak dates back to 1170, tae Kyon and Yu Sool both came after they split apart from the original subak, I'd have do to research to remmber the exact date this separation took place. Tae Kyon remained a kicking and striking fighting art, while Yu Sool became more of a joint locking /grappling fighting art,

yusool is pronounced jiujitsu in japanese. I think that says more about yusool than these histories written on the internet or in the introduction section of korean martial arts books.

when the Japanese occupation ended in 1945 there weren't any Korean fighting arts being taught at that time, Won Kuk Lee brought okinawan Karate to Korea calling it Tang Soo Do his Assoicaiton was the Chung Do Kwan which he established in 1945, at that time hwe call his martial art Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do,

GM LEE Won Kuk came back to Korea from Japan in January 1944. He said he moved back to Korea because of american bombing raids on tokyo at the time. He said that when he was on the ship back to korea, an american fighter plane swooped down to look at the ship he was on, but didn't fire upon them. He first opened the Chung Do Kwan in September 1944, not 1945. The date 1944 is on the official Chung Do Kwan patch as well as on the certificates that the Chung Do Kwan still issues. As for Taekkyon, many people state that GM LEE Won Kuk studied Taekkyon in his youth, but that is not true. GM Lee actually says is that when he was young he had heard of taekkyon, but never saw it performed and never learned it. When he opened the Tang Soo Do Chung Do Kwan in September 1944, Taekkyon played no part in what he originally taught. However, he did state that his students were fascinated by and focused on kick training, due to the korean culture's emphasis on using feet to attack and defend. If you watch american kids fighting with no training, they will either put up their hands like a boxer and throw punches, or they will wrestle. In Korea, you see kicks instead of punching or wrestling.

I learned all of this by studing and researching, I didn't just want ot practice Tang Soo Do I wanted to know everything about my MA and it's history, and the more I rearched the more I uncover about the origianl origins of Tang Soo Do and many other Korean MA.

What did your research consist of? Have you spoken to any of the pioneers in an effort to understand the origins of your art?

 

[kbarrett]

I never go a chance to speak to any of the founders of the Chung Do Kwan or the Moo Duk Kwan, I wish I had, but my research comes from my instructors who have personally trained with the founders of the Moo Duk Kwan or Chung Do Kwan and others who where associated with both these groups. I also read articles by MG Won Kuk Lee, and ones done by GM Hwang Kee or his son GM H.C. Hwang, along with others that where part of both these groups, as for yu Sool being pronounced jujutsu in Japan I have herd that before, one thing of note regardless of which history you read about, what I've found interesting is that in the Muye dobo tonji martial arts manual of Korea, it's "kwan bup" that's pictured, with only a mention of the wrestling style of Ssirum of all the style that mite have been in Korea at that time that the one which was chosen to go in the muye gobo tonji manual.

Ken

 

[mastercole]

I never go a chance to speak to any of the founders of the Chung Do Kwan or the Moo Duk Kwan, I wish I had, but my research comes from my instructors who have personally trained with the founders of the Moo Duk Kwan or Chung Do Kwan and others who where associated with both these groups. I also read articles by MG Won Kuk Lee, and ones done by GM Hwang Kee or his son GM H.C. Hwang, along with others that where part of both these groups, as for yu Sool being pronounced jujutsu in Japan I have herd that before, one thing of note regardless of which history you read about, what I've found interesting is that in the Muye dobo tonji martial arts manual of Korea, it's "kwan bup" that's pictured, with only a mention of the wrestling style of Ssirum of all the style that mite have been in Korea at that time that the one which was chosen to go in the muye gobo tonji manual.

Ken

The mooyetobtongji is about Chinese martial arts. Kwonbop is how Korean people say Chuanfa. They are written with the same Chinese characters.

 

[puunui]

I also read articles by MG Won Kuk Lee

Are you talking about the one in Taekwondo Times? If so, there were numerous mistranslations in it. I personally asked GM Lee some of the same questions, and he sometimes he gave me completely different answers. For example, that tkdt article mentions Gojuryu, and GM Lee had nothing to do with Gojuryu. I think a lot of interviews suffer from mistranslation and also from the limitations of the interviewer in being able to ask the right questions at the right time and under the right circumstances.

 

[puunui]

The mooyetobtongji is about Chinese martial arts. Kwonbop is how Korean people say Chuanfa. They are written with the same Chinese characters.

There is someone here in Hawaii who has studied and translated the original chinese texts from which the mooyedobotongji was based. Kwon Bup is pronounced Chuan Fa in one dialect Chinese and is also Kenpo (pronounced "Kempo") in Japanese. When the n sound is next to the p sound in Japanese, the general rule is that the n sound gets converted into the m sound, thus kempo instead of kenpo. Pronouncing it Kenpo instead of Kempo is of sort like pronouncing it Gunbo instead of Gumbo.