goju karate

[Haze]

Although I am working on introducing the art of Koroho to the U.S., I now primarily teach 3 arts: Yoshinkan Aikido, Ba Men Taichi Chuan and Motobuha Shito Ryu Karatedo. Shito Ryu has much in common with Goju Ryu and most of the bunkai that I teach was learned in Goju Ryu.

You say that most of the bunkai you teach was learned in Goju Ryu but I don't see you ranked in Goju Ryu. Did you study Goju?

(from your site)
Current Styles, Ranks of Jim Mc Coy:
Koroho Goshinjutsu, U.S. Director, Shihan
Goshin Budo Jujutsu (aka Kuniba Ryu Goshindo) 4th Dan
2nd Level Instructor, Ba Men Taichi Chuan
Motobuha Shito Ryu Karatedo, 2nd Dan
Judo, 1st Dan
Mugai Ryu Iaihyodo 3rd Dan
Keisatsu Aikido 2nd Dan

And if all this was taught to you or learned by you in Goju Ryu, why did you spend time in jujutsu training and Aikido training to learn what you claim is taught in Goju Ryu?

(no hostility intended, just curious)

I have some training in jujutsu and it has helped me look at some goju bunkai from a new prospective.

 

[KOROHO]

Fair questions.

I started in Tae Kwon Do. My teacher left due to the politics as they made the move toward Olympic sport. We joined the National Karate and Jujutsu Union, which exposed us to a lot of other things. We adopted Motobuha Shito Ryu as the main style of the school.
Later,after finishing school, I moved out of state and could not find a suitable teacher so I looked at other styles.

I studied Goju Ryu with Bill Knoblock of the NKJU and also under Jong Lee of IOGKF. But I never tested for any rank.

The other styles I took up partly due to the lack of qualified teachers in the areas where I lived as I travelled with my work. Also, over a period of time I grew more and more interested in exploring the similarites of the arts.

I got into Taichi when I moved here to Indiana. I discovered an old senior black belt of Shogo Kuniba's and wanted to train with him. He was also teaching Taichi now and I went to a seminar. I was always fascinated by Taichi and it's similarity to Aikido. With no other Aikido in the area, Taichi was a good choice for me.

For the most part, the different styles are just different approaches to teaching the same things. There are differences of course. But they are all closely intertwined.

Jujutsu also gave me a new perspective on the karate kata. It had the same influence on Kuniba which sparked the creation of Kuniba Ryu. It was only after training with Knoblock, Lee and my Aikido teacher Lyn Gray of the Goju Ryu Karatedo Kyokai, that I came to understand that there was no need to learn Jujutsu - it was all there in the kata.

But some people just prefer the training methods of one style over the other, or perhaps the philosophy behind the system. Everything in Aikido is in Goju Ryu. But in Goju Ryu you will also learn striking - maybe some people don't like striking. Others will be attracted to Aikido by the non-violent philosophy. Others to Goju to learn some other aspect of that.

But in the end, they ultimately end up teaching the same things.

 

[Haze]

Mr. McCoy,

Thank you for the reply. I do agree with you as far as most arts use the
same/variations on techniques. There are only so many basic kicks, punches, locks, throws, chokes, etc. I guess it is as you say. The way its taught, what is given preference. Karate (goju) was my first choice. I liked striking. But I find as I get older I tend to think more along the lines of locks and submissions.

Again, thanks for your reply.

 

[Robert Lee]

From what I am reading now Is that you are saying you putting your ground and grappling in with your Go Ju training. I still see Goju as A more upright art That trains joint destruction, Breaks and throws then standing ground strikes Little to no On the ground manuvers Then The strikes and kicks. Sure you can go to the ground and defend but less focus is trained in Traditional Go ju On this. And In the 1960s Most MA schools were still doing plenty of Kata, bunki and Kisokumite training. Tournaments were even much different. Groin kicks were allowed Take downs Head punching Ect. rules changed really alot around 1980 to 82. Contact started around 1975. I remember the Old point tournaments They had ambulances there Some people got broken legs arms Ect. You see very little of that now days at all in this type. But I still see Go ju Very differnt then Aikido.

 

[KOROHO]

Goju and Aikido are much more the same than different. That does not mean no different - just very very similar. Again, every technqiue in Aikido will be found in Goju Ryu.
The difference between Aikido's execution and Goju's execution is in the Aiki.
This is the same difference between Aikido and Jujutsu.

Contrary to popular belief, ground fighting is not something new. It has been iin Jujutsu for centuries, Judo from the beginning and Karate from the beginning - including Goju Ryu. Just because some teachers either never taught it, or never figured it out for themselves, or chose not to teach it, does not mean it never existed before. If you fully explore that kata and understand what you are doing you will see an awful lot of grappling, throws, sweeps, joint locks, chokes, and a host of things that can be easily applied on the ground.

Not just in Goju Ryu, but in relation to all Okinawan karate, I had always been told that "a kick is a sweep and a throw", "a block is strike is a throw" "blocks" always become joint locks, chokes or a throw of some sort.
And these techniques are just as easily applied on the ground as standing.
I seriously doubt that Miyagi did not teach technqiues on the ground, as I am certain that he was taught. I also think it odd that 3 different teachers from 3 different lines of Goju in 3 different parts of the country just happen to make up the same ground applications from the kata. I'm sure they learned it from some where. And the only common link is Miyagi himself.

Yes, the rules of Karate tournaments changed since the 60's, but we also started seeing new American "kata" being created and the even experiemntation with musical kata. Even in Japan karate changed drastically in the 60's as tournaments became more popular.

Before there were tournaments there were no rules at all to fighting. The addition of any rules was a drastic change. As soon as the focus turned to the entertainment value of the kata performance, that was the beginning of the end for bunkai. It was never completely lost, but it was seriously endangered. By the time Shogo Kuniba started teaching Kata here in the late 60's-70's there were a lot of people that never heard the word bunkai.
His ideas seemed all new to people then, but he was teaching pre-WW2 Karate. Then it seemed to die down some and now again people are "rediscovering" the ancient kata. Perhaps the common notion that ground fighting is new is yet another sign that the older arts just are not fully understood.

One more thing:

Goju Ryu can be seen as primarily a standup art. That would be because the objective is put your attacker on the ground while you stay standing.
Going to the ground yourself when you don't have to is foolish and dangerous. But even karateka of old had to have some defense in the event that they did get knocked down.

At it's most basic levels Goju Ryu is a standup striking art. As students get more advanced they learn the grappling applications. Then the more advanced students learned the ground fighting. Those that I learned the ground applications from decided to start teaching it sooner because of the growing popularity of BJJ. But as I said, it has always been there.

 

[drummingman]

what is bunkai?
what is the difference between american goju ryu karate and the other types? what other types are there?
what are some good books/websites by patrick mccarthy and others that covers ground fighting in karate? is this from the goju rye karate perspective?
are there other books by other authors that deal with the ground fighting in goju ryu specifically and books that deal with ground fighting in all forms of okinawan karate?

 

[KOROHO]

The word BUNKAI essentially means "to dissect" or "pick apart". It is used to mean "the applications of the techniques in the kata"
I never really studied Mr. Urban's American Goju. But from those I have come across on these boards - the main difference seems to be the lack of focus on grappling. They take a more simplistic view of the kata as teaching "block. punch, kick" fighting technqiues. What I learned in Okinawan Goju Ryu is to look beyond the strikes and look at "blocks" as receiving the attack and applying ajoint lock, looking at the kicks as sweeps and throws. I learned to look at all strikes from different angles in combination with the stances to see if it is feasible for it to be more than just a strike.

I am only passingly familiar with Pat McCarty's work. I did buy his translation of Choki Motobu's book. I assume that in his other works he discusses the ground fighting. But I don't think he wrote specifically about Goju Ryu - more Okinawan Karate in general. I would reccomend anything that he wrote.

For another view on Bunkai, you may want to check out "ShihaniTe: The Bunkai Of Karate Kata" by Darrell Craig and Paul Anderson. It takes a generic look at Okinawan Kata withoug being style specific and teaches how to identify grappling technqiues "hidden" in the kata of your own style.
I would advise though, that the book may not apply to American versions of the kata, as many Americans changed the kata without having an understanding of bunkai

As for branches of Goju Ryu, there are the original Okinawan as passed on by the founder Miyagi Chojun, then there is Japanese Goju Ryu started by Yamaguchi and then Urban's USA Goju Ryu. Of course there are now different factions of each group.

If you want to learn Goju Ryu you may want to look into the IOGKF. It is a large organization with dojo all over the country. There may be one near you.

In Virginia there is also a rather large number of Motobuha Shito Ryu schools spread around the state due mainly to Shogo Kuniba settling there in the Portsmouth area. If there is no Goju Ryu this will be an option for you as the 2 have much in common.

 

[Journeyman]

There's also Chinese Goju which was created by Ron van Clief who I think was a student of Urban. Don't know how it differs from the other gojus. van Clief fought in one of the early UFC events and was choked out by Royce Gracie. I think van Clief still holds the record for being the oldest competitor in the UFC at over 50 years of age when he competed.

 

[KOROHO]

Goju is essentially a Chinese art. Higaoona had a background in Okinawan martial arts then travelled to China where he is reputed to have lived and trained for 14 years. What he taught to Miyagi was relatively unchanged form what he learned in China. Even today you will find people in China still practicing what appear to be "Goju Ryu" forms.

I assume what Mr. Van Clief did was learn the Ameircanized version of Goju Ryu, then rather than go to Okinawan version, he went on to explore the Chinese roots of the system. I don't know if he teaches the grappling aspects that are also part of the Chinese systems.

I did hear about him entering the UFC, which does take a lot of guts to begin with. At over 50 years old, it's really a gutsy move. Some people take his loss to Gracie as a sign of the inferiority of his style. But the rules of these matches are always written to favor the host's style of fighting.

I'm not at a point where I would reccomend someone train in this style, but I also would not say to stay away from it either. If anyone has information on this menthod I would like to read it.

 

[Robert Lee]

Yes Go Ju ryu Kata has chokes take downs sweeps Joint locks Flips Ect. Kata bunki demonstrates this in both offence and defence moves of the Kata. The old Koru Kata. Is the Key to Go ju ryu. The giekisi kata Kiekaha and Kakuha kata. Was Miyagi More or less The tandaku Was Toguchi He felt it could be the unified Kata for All karate. But It stayed Just with His Go Ju. We were taught Break falls. And defence on the ground aginst a standing attacker. And Very little Ground defence. At all In Okinawin Go Ju ryu. And yes you could put your own ground defence game into it If need. But As yet I Was Not taught It or Others that I new Or visited Were not Taught It. I even have 2 good friends That after Shodan In Go Ju went on to Aikido And they seen a big difference between Go Ju and aikido. They are now 5th And 4th degree blackbelts in Aikido. Sure you can see some closeness in every art out there. But what you practice for rank In both of these arts. Is as different as night and day. Just the softness trained aikido wise Then a person coming from A karate art. There is much difference. The Karate person has to make a big change . Jujitsu Is more direct then aikido. More aggressive in its action. Aikijutsu is even different But they are related But you train different And apply your training A little different. After a person trains a M/A for sometime. They can relate more to other arts and apply the simlarty If An aikido person went to train Karate they would have to change there method to learn. Today Karate is taught much different then the past. Why because It was changed for all people. Befor you was chosen to learn if an instructor chose to teach you. And far less kata was taught as You see since the 1920s Proir to that Karate was karate jutsu trained to a higher degree of self defence. But it changed and became more a watered down art to meet the spread to the public.