Many people pay big money to hunt elephants in Africa every year. They're one of the so called "big five" game animals (lion, leopard, rhino, elephant and cape buffalo) that trophy hunters brag about.
Going to organize Bear hunt using tradittional Japanese Archery Equipment
- Thread starter Master Dan
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Many people pay big money to hunt elephants in Africa every year. They're one of the so called "big five" game animals (lion, leopard, rhino, elephant and cape buffalo) that trophy hunters brag about.
As long as you do so legally, there's nothing wrong with hunting, IMO. That's a separate issue.
Can you hunt bear with a Japanese bow? Maybe. I think what Chris Parker pointed out in his last post underlines the difficulties of it. It sounds like you'd have to adapt the equipment for the task and for that, you'd have to know how to make the equipment and shoot well with it. Then, you'd have to learn how to hunt with it. It's worth experimenting with...but do so on small game until you really figure out how to use this thing. Also, learn as much about the equipment that people currently use to take bears. Maybe actually take a bear with the equipment that people normally use. I imagine the quickest route from A to B is to adapt the traditional equipment to the Japanese archery system. That will take a lot of learning. You're putting your life on the line with this hunt. Be prepared.
Can you hunt bear with a Japanese bow? Maybe. I think what Chris Parker pointed out in his last post underlines the difficulties of it. It sounds like you'd have to adapt the equipment for the task and for that, you'd have to know how to make the equipment and shoot well with it. Then, you'd have to learn how to hunt with it. It's worth experimenting with...but do so on small game until you really figure out how to use this thing. Also, learn as much about the equipment that people currently use to take bears. Maybe actually take a bear with the equipment that people normally use. I imagine the quickest route from A to B is to adapt the traditional equipment to the Japanese archery system. That will take a lot of learning. You're putting your life on the line with this hunt. Be prepared.
'Hunting' driven game just so you can claim bragging rights to having shot an animal is just pathetic, only someone lacking in the touser department 'hunts' that way. There's no reason for rich white men to go around killing elephants, etc these days, As is glorying killing as being something a 'warrior' does, drinking blood... what a load of bollocks tbh. Hunters hunt for substistance, they don't go round shouting 'woo, look at me' I shot a beastie', they get on and butcher the meat, salvaging everything else they need, if lifes hard you don't make go round playing with toy s like a 'new' bow just so you can see if you can kill a bear with it so all this noble warrior stuff is pants.
Honestly, this is a difference in culture. To someone who was born and raised in Alaska, there is nothing wrong with hunting bears. I've had the pleasure of spending a significant amount of time in Alaska. I carried a gun everywhere because there are a lot of bears.
WC_lun
Senior Master
Something I've noticed from my own relatives living on the rez in Oklahoma that hunt for sustinance, they seem to be a lot more cognizent of the life the animal lost in order to feed thier family. The act of killing itself is not celebrated as much. This doesn't mean they aren't happy when they make a kill or appreciative when the animal is a rarer speciman, but the killing isn't so much the focus. Food for thought.
Let's not assume this hypothetical hunt is purely for sport. Plenty of people hunt because it's fun and because it puts good meat in your freezer. The bottom line is that whether or not you hunt for fun or food, it's thrilling to bag the animal. That feeling is part of being human.
Nothing wrong with hunting bears? Just so you can say you killed an animal? You don't go out and shoot a bear because you are in need of food, clothing, etc etc? You just shoot a bear because you can? did you ever think that there's a corollary between those who think it's fine to just kill animals thereby destroying life and those who kill humans because they can, either all life is sacred or none is. As WC_lun has pointed out those who kill for subsistance, appreciate the life of the animal and know what it means to kill it. Going out shooting animals just to end their lives so you can have a trophy is definitatly an activity of those who really don't appreciate life as they should.
rframe
Green Belt
It's always entertaining to listen to the moral judgments of people who have no clue what they are talking about. The hunters I know spend almost all of their free time enjoying nature, a great deal of money and effort working on environmental preservation and restoration, and have a deep appreciation for life. They are active participants in nature and the cyclic nature of predator and prey. To paint them as knuckle dragging rednecks who just want to stick another head on a wall is incredibly ignorant and disrespectful.
I lived with subsistence hunters in Canada. They use every bit of the animal and hunting is just as thrilling. The whole Avatar meme in regards to taking an animal isn't really accurate. Taking an animal is fun, practical, and fulfilling in ways that many activities aren't.
As far as moralizing goes, I grew up hunting and fishing and I would say I have a realistic view of suffering and death. I'm not kicking puppies or pulling the wings off of flies in my basement, nor am I bending my will to the state religion to kill a bunch of people who never did a thing to me. None of that is practical or fulfilling. From my perspective, as someone who has taken life in nature, most of the suffering and death that humans cause each other is the ultimate waste.
At least the Maori ate their war dead...
Anyway, this is a huge thread hijack. We should split this conversation off into a new thread...
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It's not for me, but I can understand the point of view of those who "trophy and sport" hunt.
It's totally unecessary for me to hunt for meat-I do it for pleasure and health reasons: elk and venison are just soooo much better than most store bought meat-it's the same reason I raise chickens and rabbits, really.
That, and it's a truly wonderful activity on a bunch of levels that I'm not going to detail here, just say that it's spiritually fulfilling, and part of my personal warrior ethos.
On the other hand, I'd never hunt a bear unless I were starving-again, for a variety of reasons that are my own. I don't begrudge anyone the pleasure of a bear hunt, or eating bear meat, and I'd eat it if it were served to me, but I hope to never have to harvest any myself-or to kill a bear under any circumstances.
Worked with a guy who went on safari in Africa every couple of years-he and his wife had taken kudu, Cape buffalo, leopard(?) and elephant. Don't care much for guided hunts, but I had to respect going into the field after an animal that could as easily kill you, and maybe wanted to. Not for me, but it was his money.
As for hunting a brown bear in Alaska with a yumi-, as someone who has done a great deal of hunting with a bow, and actually has some experience wqith jyudo, I can say this: there used to be (still are?) bears in Japan, and this was the bow they were hunted with-if you're familiar with the weapon, and can fashion appropriate arrows yourself (the draw length is longer because the Japanese draw pulls back beyond the ear, so the arrows are much longer as well) you can even use modern broadheads-at least, I don't see any reason why you couldn't. It really doesn't take much more than 35# draw weight to kill a smaller bear, so it's feasible...........I'd just have to ask, why? A modern compound bow, recurve or longbow is challenge enough with any animal, let alone one that might kill you, why add another level of complication?>
It's totally unecessary for me to hunt for meat-I do it for pleasure and health reasons: elk and venison are just soooo much better than most store bought meat-it's the same reason I raise chickens and rabbits, really.
That, and it's a truly wonderful activity on a bunch of levels that I'm not going to detail here, just say that it's spiritually fulfilling, and part of my personal warrior ethos.
On the other hand, I'd never hunt a bear unless I were starving-again, for a variety of reasons that are my own. I don't begrudge anyone the pleasure of a bear hunt, or eating bear meat, and I'd eat it if it were served to me, but I hope to never have to harvest any myself-or to kill a bear under any circumstances.
Worked with a guy who went on safari in Africa every couple of years-he and his wife had taken kudu, Cape buffalo, leopard(?) and elephant. Don't care much for guided hunts, but I had to respect going into the field after an animal that could as easily kill you, and maybe wanted to. Not for me, but it was his money.
As for hunting a brown bear in Alaska with a yumi-, as someone who has done a great deal of hunting with a bow, and actually has some experience wqith jyudo, I can say this: there used to be (still are?) bears in Japan, and this was the bow they were hunted with-if you're familiar with the weapon, and can fashion appropriate arrows yourself (the draw length is longer because the Japanese draw pulls back beyond the ear, so the arrows are much longer as well) you can even use modern broadheads-at least, I don't see any reason why you couldn't. It really doesn't take much more than 35# draw weight to kill a smaller bear, so it's feasible...........I'd just have to ask, why? A modern compound bow, recurve or longbow is challenge enough with any animal, let alone one that might kill you, why add another level of complication?>
I lived with subsistence hunters in Canada. They use every bit of the animal and hunting is just as thrilling. The whole Avatar meme in regards to taking an animal isn't really accurate. Taking an animal is fun, practical, and fulfilling in ways that many activities aren't.
As far as moralizing goes, I grew up hunting and fishing and I would say I have a realistic view of suffering and death. I'm not kicking puppies or pulling the wings off of flies in my basement, nor am I bending my will to the state religion to kill a bunch of people who never did a thing to me. None of that is practical or fulfilling. From my perspective, as someone who has taken life in nature, most of the suffering and death that humans cause each other is the ultimate waste.
At least the Maori ate their war dead...
Anyway, this is a huge thread hijack. We should split this conversation off into a new thread...
It's not, the OP said he wanted to shoot a bear with a Japanese bow, he siad there was the whole 'life and death' experience about it, presumably why he didn't shoot them with the usual weapons, he wants to make it an 'experience' so it's about more than just using a bow and arrow. So there is no thread drift.
Avatar meme? I haven't seen Avatar and don't get get sentimental about killing animals for food, I just find it pointless and wasteful when people who are on an ego trip kill animals for no other reason than to make the shooter feel like a bigger person and stick a stuffed head on their walls. if you want to kill bears for food, go ahead but don't turn it into a freak show for the ego by using a Japanese bow for 'amusement' and glory, that's just a load of bear dung.
It could also be viewed as a legitimate challenge for a hunter.
Humans used to take bears with atl atls and spears. That would take a lot of courage! I practice with a spear thrower periodically and the thought of getting close enough to kill a bear with a hard thrown spear is terrifying.
A man who could do that would earn huge bragging rights, IMO.
Had to petition the state to let me use an atlatl to take an elk-had to demonstrate that it was as accurate and effective as a bow and arrow.
It was really hard, and really worth it!
Could do it with a bear, but don't hunt bears.........
There are lots of other motivations for hunting besides simply providing what can be harvested from the animal. I use my turkey hunts to scout for my elk hunts-I also use a bow for turkey hunts because it's more challenging. Likewise, while I'll occasionally take a turkey because I can use the meat and provide feathers for people who have a use for them, I really prefer domestic turkey to wild turkey, so I raise a couple every year. On the other hand, turkeys are pretty wily, so most years I get humbled-outsmarted by something with a brain a little bit smaller than the tip of my pinkie.....:lfao:
I fashioned an atlatl long ago, and darts made of stainless steel tubing. I was younger, faster and had a little more -stamina, and wanted to try it out on elk-it required the use of altogether different skill sets from a bow or muzzleloader for a successful hunt, and presented different challenges.
I can see that if Dan's going to hunt bear, he's looking to make it more challenging-I get that-it's one of the reasons why I'll bowhunt or use a muzzleloader (though I prefer the muzzleloader for elk because of the heavy .50 caliber ball)-I don't see that a Japanese bow is any more challenging than a western recurve or longbow, except in the unfamiliarity of the weapon, which is pretty foolish with an animal like a brown bear.
Physics wise, this isn't true, and archery-Japanese or western-comes down to physics. Yumi-the modern versions of the "classical Japanese bow," anyway-come in a variety of draw weights, starting at about 30 lbs. It's because of the Japanese draw that arrows are personalized-the draw actually ends behind the ear, and arrows have to be quite long for some people0it's for this reason that "draw weight" is a little more flexible for yumi-the draw is typically quantified as "between x and y lbs. at z inches.. In any case, higher draw weight means greater exit velocity, and kinetic energy, and this is what ultimately equates with "power," nothing more-you can't "generate greater power with lower actual draw power required"-that's physically impossible. This is, of course, all affected by draw length-the longer Japanese bow, and longer arrow and draw, means that there is a bigger drop off in velocity at higher draw weights-they're actually less efficient in generating speed and power than a recurve, but, because of all those things-the shape, length and draw length, they are actually conducive to more efficiency in releasing the arrow and hitting the target.
In kyudo,though, there are a variety of draw weights used, and the heavier draw weights launch the arrows faster, it's as simple as that.
In any case, the lightest of Japanese bows has around a 22-25 lbs. draw weight, which might not be legal for bear hunting-I think Alaska requires a peak draw weight of 50lbs. for brown bear, and, while I think it would actually be easier to draw a yumi with such a draw weight than a standard western recurve or longbow, it wouldn't be a simple matter-nor, I might add, would traipsing around in the field with a bow seven feet long and arrows that would be a little over three feet long -if you're anywhere near my size.....
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hmm, honestly Tez, I'm not a fan of hunting myself either, but some people are. That's their thing, really. You might as well be asking why would anyone want to put themselves in a cage where there's another person trying to hit them in the head as hard as they can. In this instance, it's probably best to just accept that some people like hunting, and prefer to make it a form of personal challenge, or sport. You don't have to like it, but you also don't have the authority to sit in judgement over it, especially when it's a legal aspect of life in some parts of the world. This is why I haven't spoken against the idea of hunting itself, just the very bad idea of using a yumi with no understanding or experience in it, or any real comprehension of the differences to Western bows.
And if I were simply looking to "harvest" an animal, that's what I'd do, regardless of season or tool. It's open season on feral hogs in this part of the world, and I simply went out and shot one, and could do so as much as I like, really. Taking an elk or deer is at best a once a year event, though, and such hunts are typically regulated and portioned out by the state, unless one is hunting on tribal lands.
There really isn't a lot to going out with a high powered rifle and just shooting an animal, though, once one has some practice at it. You have to get closer with a bow, and that's a challenge-in addition to the already present challenges of knowing what the animals habits are, reading sign, and not giving one's own presence away-it adds another level of skill development.
Why not have it be more challenging? Would you prefer that I just stop on the side of the road in my truck, shoot the animal and be home in time for dinner? :lol:
I'm not against hunting, what I find objectionable is the shooting of animals and leaving them lying around to rot. Hunt and eat by all means but who can honestly say shooting a flock of pigeons and leaving them to rot is a 'challenge? Where the' sport in shooting thousands of birds you can never eat and nor does anyone else? where the sport in shooting an elephant when it is driven towards you and there's professional hunters waiting to shoot it when you miss just so you can go back to your country and say you shot an elephant? that's a challenge? Are people willing to say hunting squirrels is sport or a challenge?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/15/spain-king-juan-carlos-hunting
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