Getting the Angle

[KPM]

I don't expect much to get through to you yet, since you previously argued that he was stepping into the opponent, and would not acknowledge that his feet are actually stepping backward, taking him away from the opponent.

Just look at his dang feet. He's backing up toward the camera.

If you can't even see this much, of course you think the rest is nitpicking...

...of course you can't see the opponent's stance being pulled to open up and reface, and what would happen if he went with the force and rotated with a punch from his left hand. That guy is a boxer after all, I'm sure he knows how to throw rotational punches quite well, and that would be his natural response.

Ok, this is my last try.

Mazza is a big guy, his feet move back because he is maintaining his distance while still being within range to strike. He could kick at this point if he wanted to as well. Because of the distance. Let's look at his dang feet. His rear foot moves towards the camera because he is adjusting the angle. His lead foot stays at the same distance. So he is not actually moving away from the opponent by any significant amount. So yes, you are nit-picking.

Note that Mazza is going slow enough that the opponent can take that small step back to recover his balance. At speed that wouldn't happen, and the opponent would remain off-balance with his body somewhat twisted. His right foot is forward and his right arm is stretched back and he is in the process of falling backwards. Its pretty hard to suddenly swing that rear hand around all the way to Mazza's new position on the blindside with any kind of effectiveness. And, as I pointed out before....if he did Mazza is ready and able to deal with it easily. Because of the distance.

If you can't or won't see these things.......what can I say??

 

[Juany118]

I don't know, guys. I agree with LFJ's analysis of the video and I think he's tried to remain neutral and technical. Maybe I've missed something but I don't see any "lineage bashing." My only experience with TWC (and I realize that one experience isn't statistically significant) jives with what LFJ has said, but that doesn't mean that I think TWC is worthless or bad as a style of WC.

Flanking and creating angles of attack is, of course, incredibly important in fighting and technical, detailed discussions on the subject are worth our while.

The problem is there is a difference between a seminar where you are explaining step by step and then actual light/full on sparring fighting. That's one of the reasons I posted a video earlier with a TWC guy doing full on fighting where he knocks a guy out twice. He traps, he uses a jamming bong to get an opening (as Sifu Mazza explains you can do instead on the cheun he physically demonstrates) etc.

Now without my experience in actual use of TWC and/or the video of the actual fight, I could say "okay maybe LFJ is being open minded and that is simply his take away." However since I have that experience and there are videos of TWC in real fights (would love to see one of WSLVT vis PB btw) I think we can safely say what he is complaining about is simply a product of the limitations a step by step demonstration. Since that is clear it seems it's basically shots at lineage.

Now don't get me wrong. I know Grand Master Cheung is unpopular in many quarters so this is bound to happen. It is what it is though.

 

[LFJ]

His rear foot moves towards the camera because he is adjusting the angle. His lead foot stays at the same distance. So he is not actually moving away from the opponent by any significant amount. So yes, you are nit-picking.

Both steps are moving away from the opponent.
The lead is stepping further away behind the guy.
The rear is withdrawing directly back toward the camera.
This opens space by at least a good foot or more.

It is not nitpicking if this is said to be stepping into and smothering the opponent, when it's the exact opposite.

Note that Mazza is going slow enough that the opponent can take that small step back to recover his balance. At speed that wouldn't happen, and the opponent would remain off-balance with his body somewhat twisted. His right foot is forward and his right arm is stretched back and he is in the process of falling backwards.

Only if he's an action figure that can spin its body around independently, without the momentum being transferred to the legs.

The natural reaction of the human body is for the lead leg to be pulled back toward Mazza and for the torso to be turned to reface him.

In fact, this is what happens in the video/gif, and it would only be fuller if the guy responded and went with the force to take a deliberate step and counterpunch with his left, with added momentum from being pulled around.

Since the gif seems too complicated, let's look at some stills.

Mazza has flank. The guy's stance is almost parallel to Mazza's, and his shoulders are turned away. We can see the logo on his back.

Mazza steps away to the opponent's rear and pulls his arm which begins rotating his shoulders toward Mazza.

The opponent's lower body now begins to react to the pull, which is to follow in the same rotational direction as his torso.

Mazza has stepped back opening space. Opponent's stance has now opened up to face almost perpendicular to Mazza's, and his shoulders have come around.

For sake of the demo he remains unresponsive and doesn't turn with it with an idea to punch, which just makes him stagger a bit with his left foot.

If instead at this point the opponent went with the momentum and turned fully with a deliberate right step at Mazza, nothing would stop him from throwing a powerful rotational left punch straight to Mazza's face while he's already looking and committed low.

Its pretty hard to suddenly swing that rear hand around all the way to Mazza's new position on the blindside with any kind of effectiveness.

Usually, if he's flanked and refacing is barred, as he was and should have been kept, but not when his arm is pulled to rotate his front torso toward him when it was turned away.

The rear hand comes right around with it.

And, as I pointed out before....if he did Mazza is ready and able to deal with it easily. Because of the distance.

The distance actually makes it possible for the opponent's stance to turn back toward Mazza, from the flanked position it was in, plus Mazza not having a lead leg to block it the guy's stance from coming around.

Mazza actually helped him recover facing by opening up space and pulling him back around.

The punch would be swinging at his face at the same time he's pulling with one arm and punching low with the other.

It would be a miracle if he could "easily" deal with that by detecting the counter mid-attack, then abandoning the low punch he's already started to go cover high.

In conclusion, he had him in a good flanked position from the start. Why not keep him barred there and keep attacking to his core, affecting his balance from the flank?

Opening the opponent back up like this when you already "had him" is super risky.

This is not an attack on the whole lineage or method, but obviously, I would strongly advise against this technique.

 

[LFJ]

Now without my experience in actual use of TWC and/or the video of the actual fight, I could say "okay maybe LFJ is being open minded and that is simply his take away." However since I have that experience and there are videos of TWC in real fights...
...I think we can safely say what he is complaining about is simply a product of the limitations a step by step demonstration. Since that is clear it seems it's basically shots at lineage.

This technique wasn't used in the fight video you posted, so the video is irrelevant.
There is no video of this particular technique in a fight. If there were, you'd surely have posted it by now.

Disagreeing with what you think you're seeing, and not being sold on the practicality of the technique doesn't make "shots at lineage".

This is purely technical discussion and constructive criticism.

You can consider my points and then reject them for whatever reason, but to cry foul is just ego talking, I'm afraid.

 

[geezer]

Nothing wrong with pointing out common problems. Every system has its problems/weaknesses. It's better to expose them and deal with them.

As long as we all stay technical and try not to get personal (or take things personally) it should be ok.

You do this much better than LFJ. In your previous post you stated, My only experience with TWC (and I realize that one experience isn't statistically significant) jives with what LFJ has said, but that doesn't mean that I think TWC is worthless or bad as a style of WC.

Now that's a modest and fair way to phrase your opinion. LFJ, by contrast has a way of stating things that comes off as condemning their entire lineage, and indeed any VT/WC lineage other than WSL VT. He may argue about this, but that's the general perception. For an articulate guy schooled in linguistics, as he is, I'd call that inexcusably poor communication. Covfefe?

 

[LFJ]

Despite the constant negative lineage covfefe

 

[KPM]

Mazza steps away to the opponent's rear and pulls his arm which begins rotating his shoulders toward Mazza.

The opponent's lower body now begins to react to the pull, which is to follow in the same rotational direction as his torso.

.

You sure went to a lot of effort just for the sake of continuing an argument! I've already pointed out....twice now...that this is a demo and Mazza was going slowly enough that the opponent was able to take a step back to recover his balance. I think this is shown in your pics. This wouldn't happen at speed. Mazzo would be moving fast enough that the opponent wouldn't be able to recover his balance and wouldn't be able to just whip that rear hand around with a strike as easily and accurately as you seem to think. Again, you've never had this done to you and felt what it does to your balance and control.

 

[Juany118]

You sure went to a lot of effort just for the sake of continuing an argument! I've already pointed out....twice now...that this is a demo and Mazza was going slowly enough that the opponent was able to take a step back to recover his balance. I think this is shown in your pics. This wouldn't happen at speed. Mazzo would be moving fast enough that the opponent wouldn't be able to recover his balance and wouldn't be able to just whip that rear hand around with a strike as easily and accurately as you seem to think. Again, you've never had this done to you and felt what it does to your balance and control.

And whipping that rear hand around has other issues even if the balance isn't taken completely.

1. If it's even just partially taken he can't reorient and has to reach across his body to punch.
2. If it's not taken he has to take time to reorient while Sifu Keith can simply continue his attack, even if it's just a split second while reorienting your balance is more vulnerable.
3. The entire point of using a cheun sau or bong sau to "jam" your opponent is that it is also a "cover" against that back hand coming in the event that you don't take the opponents balance. Sifu Mazza even says that the other hand is coming, that "no one throws just one punch."

So really I don't even understand the argument that the other hand is coming, it's acknowledged in the initial premise as a certainty.

 

[dudewingchun]

Can one of you guys get a sparring partner and just video yourselves doing it in real time?

 

[Juany118]

Can one of you guys get a sparring partner and just video yourselves doing it in real time?

Earlier I posted a video of Sifu Jerry Devone in a real fight. In it he uses a jamming bong, instead a cheun, to open a path to strike or to transition to lap then strike in real time resulting in a number of KO's. Since it isn't sparring but a real fight it is a little messy and fast but the principles are illustrated and they work. There are other videos on YouTube showing different angles of the fight I posted and another fight where his opponent keeps clinching on him to try and stop him from doing the same to him. The opponent I posted studied Moy Yat WC.

 

[KPM]

Here is another clip of Phil "getting the angle" on the opponent:

 

[drop bear]

And whipping that rear hand around has other issues even if the balance isn't taken completely.

1. If it's even just partially taken he can't reorient and has to reach across his body to punch.
2. If it's not taken he has to take time to reorient while Sifu Keith can simply continue his attack, even if it's just a split second while reorienting your balance is more vulnerable.
3. The entire point of using a cheun sau or bong sau to "jam" your opponent is that it is also a "cover" against that back hand coming in the event that you don't take the opponents balance. Sifu Mazza even says that the other hand is coming, that "no one throws just one punch."

So really I don't even understand the argument that the other hand is coming, it's acknowledged in the initial premise as a certainty.

He has moved into that left hand. Or kind of moved the left hand in to him. Moving into a punch is generally considered a no no because you reduce the time you have to react to it.

Then he has opened that side to striking by striking himself.

Personally If I i was going down that route I would hit with my left because his cover hand is out of range.

If he wants to throw a maday left hook. It is then covered by my guard. And he is then turning into my left strike. Which sucks.

 

[Juany118]

He has moved into that left hand. Or kind of moved the left hand in to him. Moving into a punch is generally considered a no no because you reduce the time you have to react to it.

Then he has opened that side to striking by striking himself.

Personally If I i was going down that route I would hit with my left because his cover hand is out of range.

If he wants to throw a maday left hook. It is then covered by my guard. And he is then turning into my left strike. Which sucks.

Are we watching the same video? Sifu Keith's right hand is in a jamming guard position as he enters so, if he fails to take the opponents balance his guard is there to take the left cross.

 

[LFJ]

You sure went to a lot of effort just for the sake of continuing an argument!

Only took a minute, and it's important, because without it you can continue to say things are happening that are not.

this is a demo and Mazza was going slowly enough that the opponent was able to take a step back to recover his balance. I think this is shown in your pics. This wouldn't happen at speed. Mazzo would be moving fast enough that the opponent wouldn't be able to recover his balance and wouldn't be able to just whip that rear hand around with a strike as easily and accurately as you seem to think.

Can you count on that?

Lots of my training involves maintenance and recovery of balance, including capitalizing on momentum from people pulling in this way or that.

Plenty of guys are very good on their feet, like many boxers, and could maintain or recover their balance from this better than you might imagine.

It's just a wasted opportunity to have a guy turned away and completely flanked, but then open up space and pull him back around to face you.

And it's super risky to do this while punching low with the only hand that would be able to defend against a high left punch coming in at the same time.

 

[LFJ]

And whipping that rear hand around has other issues even if the balance isn't taken completely.

1. If it's even just partially taken he can't reorient and has to reach across his body to punch.

Doesn't have to. He was pulled around to reface by Mazza.

Just look at the last still, his stance is aimed at Mazza and his shoulders have come around.

Good for a punch if he went with it.

2. If it's not taken he has to take time to reorient while Sifu Keith can simply continue his attack, even if it's just a split second while reorienting your balance is more vulnerable.

Mazza already helped him reorient by pulling him around to face him.
A left punch could come right around with it.

3. The entire point of using a cheun sau or bong sau to "jam" your opponent is that it is also a "cover" against that back hand coming in the event that you don't take the opponents balance. Sifu Mazza even says that the other hand is coming, that "no one throws just one punch."

So really I don't even understand the argument that the other hand is coming, it's acknowledged in the initial premise as a certainty.

Yes, but the problem is he abandoned the strategy of keeping the opponent flanked and attacking his core.

He switches to pulling with the left hand, and punching low with the right hand - the only hand able to defend against a high left at that moment.

It just makes little sense that he should abandon his advantageous position, to do something so risky as to bring the guy back around to face him while punching low.

Are we watching the same video? Sifu Keith's right hand is in a jamming guard position as he enters so, if he fails to take the opponents balance his guard is there to take the left cross.

You keep wanting to go back to the entry and ignore the follow-up.

The follow-up is the important part because his entry is not striking or doing anything to take the guy out of the fight. Doesn't matter how good your entry is if you can't capitalize.

Yes, he gets to good flanked position and jams the guy, barring his facing, pressuring into his center...

But then he abandons this strategy completely by stepping away and pulling the guy back around to face him!

His cheun-sau that was up to defend against a potential left strike has also been abandoned and went to strike low just as he's pulling the guy around that could be coming with a left punch up high.

Wasted opportunity.

Risky.

Earlier I posted a video of Sifu Jerry Devone in a real fight. In it he uses a jamming bong, instead a cheun, to open a path to strike or to transition to lap then strike in real time resulting in a number of KO's. Since it isn't sparring but a real fight it is a little messy and fast but the principles are illustrated and they work. There are other videos on YouTube showing different angles of the fight I posted and another fight where his opponent keeps clinching on him to try and stop him from doing the same to him. The opponent I posted studied Moy Yat WC.

Irrelevant. None of those videos show this technique.

 

[KPM]

Can you count on that?

---There you go nit-picking again. You can second guess and "if & but" all day long with ANY demo video! Post some of WSLVT and we can do the same thing! But oh wait....you never actively contribute to this forum by posting ANY videos or starting ANY threads on your own.


Plenty of guys are very good on their feet, like many boxers, and could maintain or recover their balance from this better than you might imagine.

---Can you count on that?


It's just a wasted opportunity to have a guy turned away and completely flanked, but then open up space and pull him back around to face you.

---But Mazza is NOT pulling him back around to help him re-face. The force is going behind the opponent to off-balance him. How many times do I have to state that? That's WHY his opponent took that step straight back and didn't just spin initially. Again, if you felt what was happening you would understand what I'm saying.

And it's super risky to do this while punching low with the only hand that would be able to defend against a high left punch coming in at the same time.

---No its not. Relatively speaking the opponent's rear hand is far away at that point. Mazza certainly has time to throw a fast body shot and bring that hand back quickly to defend. Because of the distance. You keep criticizing the fact that he hasn't charged straight into the guy. You keep missing the fact that it is the distance and the angling that makes it work. And after landing that body shot the opponent will have even LESS chance of getting the rear hand around for any kind of effective blow of his own.

----To sum it up: Mazza has moved to the opponent's "blindside"....immobilizing his lead hand and creating distance and an angle from the guy's rear hand that makes it difficult for the opponent to reach him with that hand. Mazza has unbalanced his opponent (evidenced by the guy stepping straight back), also causing him to be in a "twisted" position with his right leg forward and his right arm practically behind him. Mazza has also struck the opponent in the exposed ribs while he is in this twisted and off-balanced position, making it even less likely that he can throw anything effective from his rear hand. And Mazza still has his own rear hand easily in play to deal with anything that might come from the opponent's rear hand. The distance his hand travels to punch the guy's ribs is easily a third of the distance that the guy's rear hand would have to travel to reach Mazza's head.

---I only continue to respond to you because it's important. Otherwise you can continue to nit-pick and say things are likely that simply are not.

 

[LFJ]

---There you go nit-picking again.

It's not nitpicking when the percentage of risk is unnecessarily elevated like that.

Plenty of guys are very good on their feet, like many boxers, and could maintain or recover their balance from this better than you might imagine.

---Can you count on that?

Again, it's percentages. The risk run by Mazza here is much greater.

---But Mazza is NOT pulling him back around to help him re-face. The force is going behind the opponent to off-balance him. How many times do I have to state that? That's WHY his opponent took that step straight back and didn't just spin initially.

Compare the opponent's position at the start and finish.

His stance has opened up to reface Mazza and his shoulders have come around so he can punch from the left.

The only reason he's not rotating more is because he's not going with the pull with the idea to punch, for sake of the demo.

Mazza certainly has time to throw a fast body shot and bring that hand back quickly to defend. Because of the distance.

In a demo, maybe.

You keep criticizing the fact that he hasn't charged straight into the guy.

Because that's what Juany said he was doing. On another thread where he posted this favorite clip of his, he denied Mazza was obviously stepping backward, saying he was moving into the opponent the whole time.

You keep missing the fact that it is the distance and the angling that makes it work.

No. I just don't believe you.

It's opening the distance that allows the opponent's lead leg to open back up toward Mazza.

If Mazza used a lead leg on his entry, instead of a parallel stance, he could have blocked the opponent's ability to step with the momentum of his pull. Could have made a possible throw out of it, or at least kept the guy's stance turned away.

And after landing that body shot the opponent will have even LESS chance of getting the rear hand around for any kind of effective blow of his own.

Is he hitting him with a stun gun or something?

----To sum it up: Mazza has moved to the opponent's "blindside"....immobilizing his lead hand and creating distance and an angle from the guy's rear hand that makes it difficult for the opponent to reach him with that hand.

Correction: Mazza had blindside, but gave it up by pulling the guy around to where his rear hand can better reach him.

Mazza has unbalanced his opponent (evidenced by the guy stepping straight back), also causing him to be in a "twisted" position with his right leg forward and his right arm practically behind him.

Lead leg actually swung open to the right toward Mazza, because Mazza stepped back allowing him the space to do so, and he's not twisted.

Mazza has also struck the opponent in the exposed ribs while he is in this twisted and off-balanced position, making it even less likely that he can throw anything effective from his rear hand.

Not twisted or off-balanced. In much better position to counter now than he was initially.

And Mazza still has his own rear hand easily in play to deal with anything that might come from the opponent's rear hand. The distance his hand travels to punch the guy's ribs is easily a third of the distance that the guy's rear hand would have to travel to reach Mazza's head.

If both punches launch at the same time, Mazza is going to land a body shot then go back high to block the counterpunch? Is he The Flash?

---I only continue to respond to you because it's important. Otherwise you can continue to nit-pick and say things are likely that simply are not.

You got the short end of the stick when it comes to the likelihood of things here.

 

[drop bear]

Are we watching the same video? Sifu Keith's right hand is in a jamming guard position as he enters so, if he fails to take the opponents balance his guard is there to take the left cross.

He is open when he punches.

 

[KPM]

He is open when he punches.

So you guys all think Mazza, who has been training martial arts for decades, is so SLOW that the wouldn't be able to make that short punch to the liver and bring his hand back to center fast enough to deal with a rear hand punch from an opponent who is off-balance and having to pivot around and make a large swing with his off-side arm in order to target him effectively? That's really what all you guys believe????

 

[Juany118]

So you guys all think Mazza, who has been training martial arts for decades, is so SLOW that the wouldn't be able to make that short punch to the liver and bring his hand back to center fast enough to deal with a rear hand punch from an opponent who is off-balance and having to pivot around and make a large swing with his off-side arm in order to target him effectively? That's really what all you guys believe????

I don't understand why it appears that people can't tell the difference between step by step demonstration instruction and dynamic. Or maybe they can and they just don't like it? Or maybe they just have something against the lineage and so look for anything to nit-pick vs actually having a conversation about the principles and tactics being demonstrated.

As for the specific point you are mentioning. Anytime you strike you will be creating an opening of some sort, big or small. That said the entire point there is to take advantage of the off balanced opponent. Since, in The scenario the opponent is off balance having that particular opening is acceptable because when one is that off balance they can't effectively retaliate. If you note he says "so how do I get there?" If the opponent wasn't off balance you would not "get there."

It's all about context and what he is saying is as important as what you are seeing.