Getting back into Martial Arts and thinking about Jeet Kune Do

[Old Happy Tiger]

Someone else was recently trolling on here, and he tends to call people bro or bruh. He's made multiple different accounts, so some people have alarm bells go off when a new person says those words.

I understand.. I don't know why people act like that on web forums.

 

[Thunder Foot]

So I actually no longer train in any form of ken/mpo. I believe it's been about 4 years since I did, give or take a year. But my main style at the moment has been kali, as a result I ended up training with a couple JKD/WC people (there's a lot of overlap there) and also tried a month at a JKD/silat place.

From what I've observed, there tends to be two types of JKD, with their own attitudes that go with it. The first seems to be people that seem to think they discovered some amazing secret by fighting southpaw, but their sparring at the very least looks like kickboxing just...southpaw. No idea if there training is different, but that's how it ends up looking. The second looks kind of like Wing Chun MMA, focused mostly on speed and handstrikes, but with more focus on sparring then WC, and quicker footwork (from what I've seen, I am no expert on WC). The sparring tends to show this as well, and these are the ones who seem more interested in kali.

I'm a fan of the second type I listed, and the first type I wouldn't call myself a fan of, but I also don't dislike it. I do dislike the attitude some have towards kickboxing or sport arts, but that's a whole nother argument.

Keep in mind that the above is extreme generalizations, based on my experiences with about 10 people tops. The best advice I could give is, once this is all finished, go check out the club near you, but also feel free to check out the karate dojos you mentioned and see which atmosphere you like the best. You could find the best club/art in the world on paper, go to a class and discover you either hate the art, or the atmosphere, and all that research was wasted.

Hi MonkeyWolf, I train JKD and have done so for a little while. I also train Wing Chun. Maybe my $0.02 can be of help.

I agree on there being 2 main schools of thought, but not on your descriptions. In my experience most don't really attribute the lineage that's other than Inosanto, to Jerry Poteet. Ted Wong usually gets that credit because he was instrumental in reviving material that Bruce taught, also taught Bruce's daughter Shannon, was a key figure in the decisions of the JKD nucleus that formed and later disbanded... and also assisted in relabeling Bruce's art "Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do" to identify it away from everyone else's hodge podge of styles that they ID'd as JKD.

I'm laughing at your comments about magical southpaw, but I'll leave that alone. If you've done Kali before then you might enjoy Inosanto's methodolgy as Kali is a big part of his process. Also, having taken the time to learn Wing Chun myself... I'm not sure if you're calling it Wing Chun MMA because of the trapping drills you may have been exposed to, but I'll say that WC is very different.

Give it a shot! You might love it.

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

I will contribute.

There are the three main schools. Seattle, Oakland, and LA that Bruce had. Oakland lasted for a very short time. And LA was the only school that students started to really do full contact sparring.

Many people will divide it into 2 main categories...La(Jerry Poteet) and Dan Inosanto aka JKD Concepts.
The third many people sometimes refer to as JKD is Jun Fan that was done in Seattle.

There happen to be many variations of JKD. And it really depends on who you are working with and training and their personal experiences.

Taky Kimura from Seattle teaches a very Jun Fan style. Foot work in his class and the drills resemble that of which Bruce was doing when he first came to america. Taky, Jesse Glover, Ed Hart to name the main bunch are from this era.

Then if you look at Oakland you find James Lee. I understand that Bruce was there for less than a year.
Again.. Bruce was evolving... and changing things. A lot of these changes he reported back to Taky.

When Bruce hit LA... he was seeking full contact sparing gear. Hence the Kendo gloves and chest protectors and baseball or hockey shin guards came into play.

Around this time many Ed Parker students also started to train with Bruce. Jerry Poteet, Dan Inosanto, Steve Golden, Pete Jacobs, Daniel Lee... etc. Bruce was also loving this cause he had Black Belts to Spar against.

What was also taught in the LA china town school was different from what he was teaching the above 5 in his backyard. Known a lot of times as the backyard group.

You also have full contact people like Chuck Norris and Jerry Lewis who trained with Bruce. Again.. if you follow people like Jerry Lewis and his students... you will find that he applied pieces of Bruces art to their style.

Dan Inosanto teaches Concepts. He applies a lot of the JKD concepts to different arts. For what it's worth... some people will argue this is JKD still.. others will say it's not.

Again.. I think each individual contributes their own piece of what Bruce worked with them on.

The JKD nucleus as Thunder Foot mentioned had best intentions on preserving Bruce's Art... yet it fell apart cause of politics with the students. Many went off to develop their own camps of preserving the art.

Ted Wong was amazing at footwork. Plus he was great at some other things. I got to train with him on several occasions.

Leo Fong is huge into boxing. From my experience

Larry Hartsell is grappling... and kali.

Jerry Poteet... stuck to what was taught in the back yard and the LA... Plus also huge into philosphy part of the art. From my ecperience

Steve Golden. Love this guy. Lots of great stuff from him. He puts it together.

Lamar Davis... 2nd generation... yet fully certified by 5 of the original students.

Joe Lewis... Amazing while he was alive. died of a brain tumor. He applied JKD to his full Contact Karate.

I can go on and on.
Karem... for example... Bruce did not do Chi Sao with him. Cause of his long arms...

So depending on you work study under and what they added in... or removed... you will get a different experience.

Like you stated that you were heavy and had certain physical limitations. Well if you studied the art with me.. And through time became an instructor... You probably would adapt certain things to yourself... and hence have an influence on your own students.

 

[Old Happy Tiger]

I will contribute.

So depending on you work study under and what they added in... or removed... you will get a different experience.

Like you stated that you were heavy and had certain physical limitations. Well if you studied the art with me.. And through time became an instructor... You probably would adapt certain things to yourself... and hence have an influence on your own students.

Hello,

I really appreciate your time listing those names out and there specialties and other information. Some of those names I am familiar with in seeing around from books and classes back in the day. Whenever there is a solid solution from this pandemic, I will be going forward join a school. What I have been doing in the mean time, is I have set up a "speed punching ball" in my closet doorway and have some open fingered gloves and I've been practicing increasing my endurance and speed. I also have been working out on a stationary bike.

My question to you as you seem to been teaching this, do you practice a lot of trapping and upper grappling in the Jeet Kune Do that you currently teach ?

 

[ShortBridge]

I hate to be the practical one in this conversation, but what is available to you in your area? It's good to do research, but in the end, it's going to come down to finding a teacher and a club to spend years learning from and training with.

Very few people have unlimited options geographically.

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

Hello
What I teach and don't teach will not dictate what you find out there. You are going to find variations.
There might be a school that teaches BJJ and JKD... but they are different times when the class is held. And they are not blended together.

I teach the following. I teach the western boxing/kickboxing aspect of JKD... and also the trapping that comes out of Wing Chun. Additionally I teach stand up grappling and on the ground. I have a lot of training in grappling on the ground and stand up. But I do not delve deep into a lot on the ground. I train my students to be able to get out of a lot of the common ground positions and back to their feet. This day in age there are a lot of people training grappling. You never want to fight the other persons fight. Ie... don't grapple a grappler, don't box a boxer etc. So just enough of awareness and technique that you are familiar with the ground game and can use the little you know to get out of common spots and back to where you thrive.

My personal thoughts.... Always go for the hit. don't think trapping... Or you will get hit. The trap will present itself. On that same note... the upper grappling techniques will present themselves if the right energy is there.
Others may teach or think differently.

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

I hate to be the practical one in this conversation, but what is available to you in your area? It's good to do research, but in the end, it's going to come down to finding a teacher and a club to spend years learning from and training with.

Very few people have unlimited options geographically.

Great direction....
List your area.... And maybe someone can steer you to a decent school to check out once schools reopen.

 

[Old Happy Tiger]

I hate to be the practical one in this conversation, but what is available to you in your area? It's good to do research, but in the end, it's going to come down to finding a teacher and a club to spend years learning from and training with.

Very few people have unlimited options geographically.

It's a good question. I've already did my research and there is "a lot" to choose from in regards to schools, even Jeet Kune Do. I've already researched each school that I am interested in, and the main instructor and the instructors.. instructors. I'm still leaning towards Jeet Kune Do.

 

[Old Happy Tiger]

Great direction....
List your area.... And maybe someone can steer you to a decent school to check out once schools reopen.

Thanks again.. I read your reply and posts and again.. I appreciate you doing that. I've already research the locations around me that is offering Jeet Kune Do and some other martial arts schools. I know a bit more in regards to martial arts that I have posted here, including modern combatives. The main issues are getting back into shape and my partial disability. And things are a bit different then they used to be, especially with BJJ and other MMA out there...So I've gained a lot of insight here and elsewhere and I'm still leaning towards Jeet Kune Do. One reason is because although learning a new martial art will push me MORE in regards to continuing to get back into shape I feel that Jeet Kune Do is more suited for the individual. I also think the style is "not" a traditional martial art, but more of a mixed martial art.... some people may argue with that, but I feel that to be case.

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

A motto is that the individual is more important than the style.

How I teach.... I blend it to the individual.... we all have different strengths and weaknesses.

I adjust for people for heights....size etc... I don't tell someone 5ft punch someone in the head that is 6'4.
That is an example..

 

[ShortBridge]

Hello
What I teach and don't teach will not dictate what you find out there. You are going to find variations.
There might be a school that teaches BJJ and JKD... but they are different times when the class is held. And they are not blended together.

I teach the following. I teach the western boxing/kickboxing aspect of JKD... and also the trapping that comes out of Wing Chun. Additionally I teach stand up grappling and on the ground. I have a lot of training in grappling on the ground and stand up. But I do not delve deep into a lot on the ground. I train my students to be able to get out of a lot of the common ground positions and back to their feet. This day in age there are a lot of people training grappling. You never want to fight the other persons fight. Ie... don't grapple a grappler, don't box a boxer etc. So just enough of awareness and technique that you are familiar with the ground game and can use the little you know to get out of common spots and back to where you thrive.

My personal thoughts.... Always go for the hit. don't think trapping... Or you will get hit. The trap will present itself. On that same note... the upper grappling techniques will present themselves if the right energy is there.
Others may teach or think differently.

As a Wing Chun guy, I totally agree with you. This is the #1 thing that I struggle with when I hear from JKD or Wing Chun-adjacent people. This idea of "trapping" really didn't come from Wing Chun as best as I can tell, even though we do it and I think we're very good at it. It's not really a thing that we talk about that way or have some explicit teaching and development around. It's a natural occurrence if you stand the way we stand and move and express the way that we do. I never go into a situation thinking "I'm going to trap his left hand and then...". People contact me all the time about trapping or people post here about "taking the trapping from Wing Chun and combining it with..."

It's a head scratcher. I think the idea and the labeling as such came from JKD, though. It would be a really hard thing to pull off as a first line of defense, but it falls into your lap all of the time if you position yourself correctly.

 

[drop bear]

Whoa there...well now.... You presume in regards to myself referring to my "physical limitations", that it encapsulates everything about me including some sort of over all negativity before I even start? Let me clarify something to you..

Martial Arts has always been around me since I was 7yrs old, from neighbors of mine to even family members. In regards to the Kempo/Kenpo that I learned, after getting to purple belt, at that time I left that Dojo because of a combination of people that I didn't like and I studied for years after that privately in regards to Mitose Kenpo, I learned the pluses and minuses of that Martial Art really well, and even to learn the "full" history of how it came to be.

After that, I studied Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan (TaiJiChuan) from three instructors from direct lineage of the Yang Family, including the real martial applications of each movement from that form. I then learned Aikikai Aikido, and my Sensei at that time also taught real modern applications from that style, not just traditional. At that time, I still was not in the best in shape.. but I could hold my own against black belts of other styles no problem with the training that I had (and still have).

I also have training in regards to traditional to modern weapons, including firearms.

I did not post all of that detail initially anywhere on site here, because I'm humble..I wanted to see what people said about the styles that I am interested in and see what they would say after my post. I maintain honesty and integrity in everything I do and sorry admitting that I do have physical limitations is nothing that I am ashamed of and it's not any sort of "negative mindset that you are implying".. I know for a 100% fact I'll end up in one school or the other. The main reason why I am going back into it is to get back into better shape, keep motivated and focused on going forward. And hopefully have some great times with some great people. I really don't care about making ranks (belts) nor impressing anyone. That's the real deal.

In which case you just do the best training you can find. Sort of. There is a lot of underlying factors for everyone and it is always good to be honest to ourselves when addressing these.

Most martial arts should start you at a level where having physical limits doesn't matter all that much because if you haven't done martial arts you are probably not very good at it.

Now the issue lies with the perception of good and the difference between happiness and fulfilment. (And I will try not to ramble too much)

So the better fit may be a bit of a red herring. It could mean you want an easy class where you progress at the same pace as younger fitter guys. Where you don't really do the things you don't want to do.

Happiness

Or you could mean you do the harder class with the better guys but loose more often and get over taken by younger fitter guys and do things you don't want to do. But ultimately you should become a better martial artist.

Fulfilment.

And there are all sorts of rambling that can spring of that idea.

Then it is just a case of being able to see if they can do what they say they can do. And if you can stand to be in a room with them.

 

[ShortBridge]

It's a good question. I've already did my research and there is "a lot" to choose from in regards to schools, even Jeet Kune Do. I've already researched each school that I am interested in, and the main instructor and the instructors.. instructors. I'm still leaning towards Jeet Kune Do.

So, make some calls, when social distancing is over (for you) then make a few visits, be respectful, but make an honest assessment about the club, the instructor, the other students and find the best place for you.

I could open a JKD school. There's no diploma or license required. I could also open a "Southern Shaolin" school or make up a recently rediscovered Chinese sounding style or pretty much whatever I wanted. I could even give myself an awesome rank like "grandmaster", it doesn't always mean anything. Conversely, there could be someone there with great, legit experience and credentials who you're not going to respond well to. To really develop anything in martial arts it takes a lot of time and have to find your spot and your people or it won't be sustainable. The system matters, but it's just a factor. Don't underestimate the other ones.

...and report back, we'll be cheering you on. You age and condition are not dis-qualifiers. Find the right fit and dedicate yourself and you'll be alright.

 

[drop bear]

Respectfully, that is certainly the case especially as implied from what you initially wrote.

And I'm not "name dropping" nor "puffing my chest" I'm just correcting your original statement to who I actually am, not what you encapsulating me to be judged off of one my posts on the physical limitations that I have. If anyone is being a bit judgemental, is you.

Headhunter has socialization issues.

So do I but mine are intentional.

 

[geezer]

As a Wing Chun guy, I totally agree with you. This is the #1 thing that I struggle with when I hear from JKD or Wing Chun-adjacent people. This idea of "trapping" really didn't come from Wing Chun as best as I can tell, even though we do it and I think we're very good at it. .

^^^^ This thought was running through my head too. Some JKD people talk about trapping like it's a goal in itself ...like it's something you set up and try to execute, like a boxer setting you up for a favorite combination, or a wrestler setting you up for a takedown.

No! Yip Man said something like, "Your opponent will show you how to hit him" ...so in WC, we go in without preconceptions, our goal is to bridge and hit. If our position and structure is right, often "trapping" ...just happens, and if it does we exploit it. That is such a simple ...and hard idea to get across!

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

^^^^ This thought was running through my head too. Some JKD people talk about trapping like it's a goal in itself ...like it's something you set up and try to execute, like a boxer setting you up for a favorite combination, or a wrestler setting you up for a takedown.

No! Yip Man said something like, "Your opponent will show you how to hit him" ...so in WC, we go in without preconceptions, our goal is to bridge and hit. If our position and structure is right, often "trapping" ...just happens, and if it does we exploit it. That is such a simple ...and hard idea to get across!

Perfect examples. Yes... if you try to set something up it may not happen the way you intended. Your examples on a wrestler or the boxer is great examples.
One of the 5 ways of attack in Jeet Kune Do(attack by draw)... is also a great example of this problem. Even though I teach JKD... I am going to pick on this one way of attack. It relies on how many people in JKD teach it. They teach it that they try to draw the attack by doing something. Well what if what you planned does not happen.
There are much better ways to do attack by draw.

Back to the idea of Trapping.
I don't know why.. but in various arts there is trapping. And something about it makes people seek that goal. Is it the fact that you feel empowered by having someone so trapped up that they can't do anything to you. Just like small circle Juitsu when someone gets a finger or wrist lock on you.... They have you at their mercy so to speak.
Then what happens is there is a goal to trap with so many people. People will force it while in a sparring match. They will try over and over again. And well they get hit for trying it. So then they throw it out.... "Trapping doesn't work"....

If you put the time in.... Like anything... it works. And it really works well. I never seek to trap. Sometimes it's there... sometimes it's...

BTW.... Love the Yip Man saying... Soo true. And glad you also Said Yip Man vs. Ip Man.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Give Keet Kune Do a try and see if it works for you!

 

[geezer]

If you put the time in.... Like anything... it works. And it really works well. I never seek to trap. Sometimes it's there... sometimes it's...

Same is true of "disarms" in FMA. Never look for one, just 'cause it it's sooo coool! Just ask Brian (above) He knows that *****. And yeah, life is short, so if you want to try JKD... just do it!

 

[geezer]

Man the censoring program is getting touchy these days. I was careful to change the spelling and everything ...and it still nailed me!

 

[drop bear]

Perfect examples. Yes... if you try to set something up it may not happen the way you intended. Your examples on a wrestler or the boxer is great examples.
One of the 5 ways of attack in Jeet Kune Do(attack by draw)... is also a great example of this problem. Even though I teach JKD... I am going to pick on this one way of attack. It relies on how many people in JKD teach it. They teach it that they try to draw the attack by doing something. Well what if what you planned does not happen.
There are much better ways to do attack by draw.

Back to the idea of Trapping.
I don't know why.. but in various arts there is trapping. And something about it makes people seek that goal. Is it the fact that you feel empowered by having someone so trapped up that they can't do anything to you. Just like small circle Juitsu when someone gets a finger or wrist lock on you.... They have you at their mercy so to speak.
Then what happens is there is a goal to trap with so many people. People will force it while in a sparring match. They will try over and over again. And well they get hit for trying it. So then they throw it out.... "Trapping doesn't work"....

If you put the time in.... Like anything... it works. And it really works well. I never seek to trap. Sometimes it's there... sometimes it's...

BTW.... Love the Yip Man saying... Soo true. And glad you also Said Yip Man vs. Ip Man.

It is the nature of a lot of drills. The point of a drill is to place you in a position that you have to do the thing. But there is no rule that says you have to force that position.

Same thing happens to us with guard passing. You can just stand up and walk away.