George Zimmerman is back in the news

He should not have gotten out of his truck. He should have observed and called 911 and not gotten involved. I wonder if the national sheriff association approved his rescue technique.

Honestly, I'd be more sympathetic to Zimmerman's judgement calls if he hadn't called 911 first; then there'd be no question of whether he should have pursued after being told he didnt' need to.

The two events are not comparable.

In the case of the traffic accident, you have an immediately apparent need (person trapped in car) with a possible element of time sensitivity depending on the nature of the crash. Zimmerman saw the need and offered a solution. The story had a happy ending.

In the case of a person seen in the neighborhood that Zimmerman determined was suspicious looking, you have an ambiguous situation involving a person who may or may not be up to no good and may or may not be armed (in the end, he wasn't, but Zimmerman did not know that). It concerned him enough to call 911 but was ambiguous enough that he didn't immediately take direct action. Zimmerman at some point after the call judged it necessary to pursue, which ended in a physical confrontation and young man dead as a result. The story had a sad ending.

When stories have a happy ending, the good samaritan is praised, God is thanked, and if the rescuer is of a different race from that of the victim, interracial cooperation and harmony are heralded.

When the story has a sad ending, people want to place blame. Who is responsible? Justice must be done! Lines are drawn, sides are taken, and people demand restitution. Since the sad ending brings out negative emotions, this often happens in a way in which accuracy takes a back seat to a need to win and in which the sense of loss at the death of another human being is diminished in favor of one side gaining victory over the other.

Demonstrators who are angry about the verdict are not honoring Martin. Honestly, I don't think they care one whit about him. They're simply mad that a trial in which they had no part didn't go the way that they wanted it to.

People who are supportive of the verdict and of Zimmerman's actions aren't bothered by the loss of life; they are more concerned with how the trial's verdict might impact some part of their own life, be it self defense, the right to carry a gun, or the idea that a man may be convicted in order to pacify the crowd that threatens to riot if things don't go their way.

In the end, after the confrontation with Martin, a seventeen year old boy was dead and his family was grieved. Every flaw he had and bad decision he ever made is now laid bare for the world to see, and regardless of what verdict the jury had reached, that young man is dead.

The death of another human being diminishes us all in some way.

Also, whenever a person is killed by another, there are consequences. They aren't always the same; a police officer killing a man who draws a gun on him will have different consequences from that of a man pulling a gun on and killing a police officer. Which are different from those of a young child who kills a sibling or themselves while playing with the gun they found in their parent's bedroom. But when life is taken, there are always consequences.
 
I've been to quite a few homicides and of them all only one was a legal gun owner and that was me. See murders already illegal so is buying or owning a gun when you know your not allowed so I'm not sure what else we can make illegal.
Agreed.

The problem with gun control is that people often conflate it with crime control. Even if you could effectively rid the world of guns, you wouldn't rid the world of violent crime. I doubt the statistics would change, as people intent on killing others would simply resort to a lower tech mechanism, as they did for thousands of years prior to the advent of firearms.
 
Honestly, I'd be more sympathetic to Zimmerman's judgement calls if he hadn't called 911 first; then there'd be no question of whether he should have pursued after being told he didnt' need to.

The two events are not comparable.

In the case of the traffic accident, you have an immediately apparent need (person trapped in car) with a possible element of time sensitivity depending on the nature of the crash. Zimmerman saw the need and offered a solution. The story had a happy ending.

In the case of a person seen in the neighborhood that Zimmerman determined was suspicious looking, you have an ambiguous situation involving a person who may or may not be up to no good and may or may not be armed (in the end, he wasn't, but Zimmerman did not know that). It concerned him enough to call 911 but was ambiguous enough that he didn't immediately take direct action. Zimmerman at some point after the call judged it necessary to pursue, which ended in a physical confrontation and young man dead as a result. The story had a sad ending.

When stories have a happy ending, the good samaritan is praised, God is thanked, and if the rescuer is of a different race from that of the victim, interracial cooperation and harmony are heralded.

When the story has a sad ending, people want to place blame. Who is responsible? Justice must be done! Lines are drawn, sides are taken, and people demand restitution. Since the sad ending brings out negative emotions, this often happens in a way in which accuracy takes a back seat to a need to win and in which the sense of loss at the death of another human being is diminished in favor of one side gaining victory over the other.

Demonstrators who are angry about the verdict are not honoring Martin. Honestly, I don't think they care one whit about him. They're simply mad that a trial in which they had no part didn't go the way that they wanted it to.

People who are supportive of the verdict and of Zimmerman's actions aren't bothered by the loss of life; they are more concerned with how the trial's verdict might impact some part of their own life, be it self defense, the right to carry a gun, or the idea that a man may be convicted in order to pacify the crowd that threatens to riot if things don't go their way.

In the end, after the confrontation with Martin, a seventeen year old boy was dead and his family was grieved. Every flaw he had and bad decision he ever made is now laid bare for the world to see, and regardless of what verdict the jury had reached, that young man is dead.

The death of another human being diminishes us all in some way.

Also, whenever a person is killed by another, there are consequences. They aren't always the same; a police officer killing a man who draws a gun on him will have different consequences from that of a man pulling a gun on and killing a police officer. Which are different from those of a young child who kills a sibling or themselves while playing with the gun they found in their parent's bedroom. But when life is taken, there are always consequences.
I wasn't comparing the two events. Its sarcasm.
 
I've been to quite a few homicides and of them all only one was a legal gun owner and that was me. See murders already illegal so is buying or owning a gun when you know your not allowed so I'm not sure what else we can make illegal.
We see homicides all the time where the gun was legally owned. I can't believe that you've never encountered one in your professional career. We have people who are mentally ill who have legally purchased weapons and used them. And that doesn't even count the people who are found criminally negligent because someone else (ie, their toddler or child) uses the legally owned gun in the death of another.

For example, the guy that shot Jared Loughner bought the gun he used to kill six people legally. It happens. A lot.
 
Agreed.

The problem with gun control is that people often conflate it with crime control. Even if you could effectively rid the world of guns, you wouldn't rid the world of violent crime. I doubt the statistics would change, as people intent on killing others would simply resort to a lower tech mechanism, as they did for thousands of years prior to the advent of firearms.
Guns are very efficient. While there will always be violent crime, I don't see how anyone could fail to acknowledge that a guy with a firearm will be able to kill/injure more people in less time than without a firearm.
 
Guns are very efficient. While there will always be violent crime, I don't see how anyone could fail to acknowledge that a guy with a firearm will be able to kill/injure more people in less time than without a firearm.
Yes and no. A gun needs skill. I mentioned a running gun battle we had the other day. Over 30 shots were fired spanning a block and half. Other then a parked Honda and Chevy nothing was hit.
I know for a fact I could take a kitchen knife into an elementary school and do more damage then I could with a gun.
Now with a little skill and training or luck then guns would give you more bang for your buck.
 
We see homicides all the time where the gun was legally owned. I can't believe that you've never encountered one in your professional career. We have people who are mentally ill who have legally purchased weapons and used them. And that doesn't even count the people who are found criminally negligent because someone else (ie, their toddler or child) uses the legally owned gun in the death of another.

For example, the guy that shot Jared Loughner bought the gun he used to kill six people legally. It happens. A lot.

I can't recall any I've been to that involved a legally owned gun. To be fair every homicide incoming a gun I've been to hasn't been solved so I guess its possible but all the ones where I know the outcome have been illegally possessed by the shooter. The closest I can recall was a husband that shot his wife but I never went to it. I was working but avoided it. It was legally purchased but he had a protective order against him so legally he wasn't allowed to have it.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I disagree with your suggestion it happens a lot
 
I doubt the statistics would change, as people intent on killing others would simply resort to a lower tech mechanism, as they did for thousands of years prior to the advent of firearms.

This has been proven false--and the effect on suicides is esp. dramatic.
 
Come on, ballen. I am not any kind of strong gun control advocate, but this is just BS and you know it. Seriously.

A guy with a gun, plenty of ammo and a place packed with unsuspecting, innocent people is a recipe for disaster. A determined person armed with a knife, sword, machete, or club could certainly do some damage and may be able to kill some people. But nothing like what the guy, even the relatively untrained guy, with a firearm and plenty of ammo could do.

And this also presupposes that the bad guys are untrained and unskilled. As I've already pointed out, the idea that bad guys MUST have obtained weapons illegally is bogus. And also, the idea that a bad guy can't go to the range like anyone else is also bogus.
 
I can't recall any I've been to that involved a legally owned gun. To be fair every homicide incoming a gun I've been to hasn't been solved so I guess its possible but all the ones where I know the outcome have been illegally possessed by the shooter. The closest I can recall was a husband that shot his wife but I never went to it. I was working but avoided it. It was legally purchased but he had a protective order against him so legally he wasn't allowed to have it.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I disagree with your suggestion it happens a lot
I'm speechless. What about this guy? http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162...rchased-guns-legally-from-3-different-stores/

I'm not saying you're lying. I believe that you may not have been involved in these cases. But that doesn't mean they aren't common.
 
I'm speechless. What about this guy? http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162...rchased-guns-legally-from-3-different-stores/

I'm not saying you're lying. I believe that you may not have been involved in these cases. But that doesn't mean they aren't common.
Compare the homicide rates of legal vs illegal guns. I'm sure the data is out there. I could be way off but I'd bet 3 to 1 illegal vs legal. I'm driving to work so I can't search it but I'd bet FBI or DOJ have stats on it. If I'm wrong if be shocked.
 
I'll ask a guy I know at work he's retired Baltimore city homicide det. He's worked over 350 homicides in his timeim interested in his take. He will probprobably cuss at me and say leave me alone kid but I like messing with him so I'll see what he says.
 
Some of my liberal friends are now doubting the truck rescue story--suggesting it's made-up or a planned incident. Sheesh! Too suspicious.
 
Compare the homicide rates of legal vs illegal guns. I'm sure the data is out there. I could be way off but I'd bet 3 to 1 illegal vs legal. I'm driving to work so I can't search it but I'd bet FBI or DOJ have stats on it. If I'm wrong if be shocked.

It looks like the answer is murky, in part because federal law prohibits the govt. from tracking things like this, and also because the answer depends heavily on exactly how the question is phrased. However, your experience of seeing no crimes with legal guns does seem extreme given the number of events you cite.

http://extranosalley.com/?p=30635

If the question is actually “What percentage of criminals legally buy a gun and commit a crime with it,” the percentage is extremely small. The last data suggests that a fraction of one percent of those who commit a gun related crime will legally purchase a gun and then commit a crime with it. Most of those crimes are “crimes of domestic violence,” essentially crimes of passion, and the gun happened to be in the house. If no gun were present, some other weapon, knives, clubs, fists or something else, would have been used instead. While the overwhelming majority of professional criminals will use stolen “street guns” that are cheap but very definitely illegal.
However, if the question is “What percentage of crimes are committed with legally purchased guns” the answer is about six percent of murders – and very few other crimes. Amateurs buy guns at a dealers; which involves extensive paperwork, identification, FBI background checks, and so on. Pros buy guns on the street, where the only requirement is money – or other valuta.


The overwhelming majority of gun related crimes are committed with guns that have been stolen, and traded for drugs.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF

Recent studies ofadult and juvenile offenders show that
many have either stolen a firearm or
kept, sold, or traded a stolen firearm:
According to the 1991 Survey of
State Prison Inmates, among those
inmates who possessed a handgun,
9% had acquired it through theft, and
28% had acquired it through an illegal
market such as a drug dealer or fence.
Of all inmates, 10% had stolen at least
one gun, and 11% had sold or traded
stolen guns.


Studies of adult and juvenile offend-
ers that the Virginia Department of
Criminal Justice Services conducted
in 1992 and 1993 found that 15% of
the adult offenders and 19% of the ju-
venile offenders had stolen guns; 16%
of the adults and 24% of the juveniles
had kept a stolen gun; and 20% of the
adults and 30% of the juveniles had
sold or traded a stolen gun.
From a sample of juvenile inmates
in four States, Sheley and Wright
found that more than 50% had stolen
a gun at least once in their lives and
24% had stolen their most recently ob-
tained handgun. They concluded that
theft and burglary were the original, not
always the proximate, source of many
guns acquired by the juveniles.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

Ask a cop on the beat how criminals get guns and you're likely to hear this hard boiled response: "They steal them." But this street wisdom is wrong, according to one frustrated Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) agent who is tired of battling this popular misconception. An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal.

In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.



The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers.
 
Compare the homicide rates of legal vs illegal guns. I'm sure the data is out there. I could be way off but I'd bet 3 to 1 illegal vs legal. I'm driving to work so I can't search it but I'd bet FBI or DOJ have stats on it. If I'm wrong if be shocked.

"3 to 1" is not the same as "all to none", which is what you said.

Sent from my iPad
 
arnisadmy92 said:
It looks like the answer is murky, in part because federal law prohibits the govt. from tracking things like this, and also because the answer depends heavily on exactly how the question is phrased. However, your experience of seeing no crimes with legal guns does seem extreme given the number of events you cite.
Like I said I can't think of a single homicide I've been too that involved a legally owned gun. You don't need to believe me or agree or not it is what it is.

So you proved my point. I didnt say most illegal guns were stolen I said shooters were not legally allowed to posses guns. A straw purchase is illegal. A gun dealer illegally selling guns to a criminal is illegal. Stealing a gun is illegal. If you ask me the #1 way I see criminals getting guns is a addict trades a gun for drugs or buys a gun to trade for drugs. Both of which are illegal.
 
and we are moving from a guy pulling an accident victim from a car (or several) to how many people are killed by illegal guns....

I swear, you guys could not stay on topic if your life depended on it!

:lfao:
 

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