Gathering Clouds

[Shodan]

A few quick questions here......but first some explanation. Over the years, I have been thru 5 different Kenpo instructors......the current one is the most settled and has been in his studio for a long time, so I feel pretty secure in that I won't have to change again. That said, it wasn't my choice to change, rather: studios failed, one of my instructors passed away, one moved and one skipped town and left us all hanging. Anyway, so I have seen a lot of different tech. variations, explanations, etc.....and not all the instructors always said the same thing or agreed.

One instructor in my past taught me Gathering Clouds with an eye rake at the end- simultaneous with the scoop kick. Did anyone else learn this? My current instructor does not teach the eye rake. Also.......the same previous instructor told me that in Kenpo 'clouds' refer to the eyes......anyone else heard this? My current instructor says the gathering clouds refers to the first move in the tech. where your arms wrap around your body. I see that the tech. definitions as posted by Kaith says that 'Clouds' refers to the overlapping of arms........so was my previous instructor just way off base or has anyone else heard of those things.........clouds as eyes and hence, an eye rake at the end of Gathering Clouds?!!

Thanks for any help you guys can offer........

:asian: :karate:

 

[Kenpo Mama]

One instructor in my past taught me Gathering Clouds with an eye rake at the end- simultaneous with the scoop kick. Did anyone else learn this? My current instructor does not teach the eye rake. Also.......the same previous instructor told me that in Kenpo 'clouds' refer to the eyes......anyone else heard this? My current instructor says the gathering clouds refers to the first move in the tech. where your arms wrap around your body. I see that the tech. definitions as posted by Kaith says that 'Clouds' refers to the overlapping of arms........so was my previous instructor just way off base or has anyone else heard of those things.........clouds as eyes and hence, an eye rake at the end of Gathering Clouds?!!

Thanks for any help you guys can offer........

:asian: :karate:

Hey Shodan, I also learned it with the eye rake and scoop kick, however i learned that the clouds meant the overlapping circles in the first move of the tech. I'm attaching the link to the reference chart for kenpo terms - i refer to this often (thanks Rob). http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3295

Donna :ultracool

 

[Doc]

A few quick questions here......but first some explanation. Over the years, I have been thru 5 different Kenpo instructors......the current one is the most settled and has been in his studio for a long time, so I feel pretty secure in that I won't have to change again. That said, it wasn't my choice to change, rather: studios failed, one of my instructors passed away, one moved and one skipped town and left us all hanging. Anyway, so I have seen a lot of different tech. variations, explanations, etc.....and not all the instructors always said the same thing or agreed.

One instructor in my past taught me Gathering Clouds with an eye rake at the end- simultaneous with the scoop kick. Did anyone else learn this? My current instructor does not teach the eye rake. Also.......the same previous instructor told me that in Kenpo 'clouds' refer to the eyes......anyone else heard this? My current instructor says the gathering clouds refers to the first move in the tech. where your arms wrap around your body. I see that the tech. definitions as posted by Kaith says that 'Clouds' refers to the overlapping of arms........so was my previous instructor just way off base or has anyone else heard of those things.........clouds as eyes and hence, an eye rake at the end of Gathering Clouds?!!

Thanks for any help you guys can offer........

:asian: :karate:

Well Ma'am, when this technique was originally put together it was an interpretation of a Chinese movement out of an old 5 Animal Qung fu Form where the arms extend forward and the hands come together and cross each other creating "crossed arms" in front of you. It does indeed resemble the movement of "gathering" something with the hands and arms and pulling it to the body. Thus this initial movement spawned its descriptive name, "Gathering Clouds." This same movement is also in some form in other techniques as well.

This however does not mean your previous instructor ws necessarily incorrect. The interpretive nature of some versions of kenpo have allowed for changes in interpretations and applications according to the senior in the lineage.

With regard to the "eye hook" (technically you do not "Rake" with the fingers), I agree with your instructor who chooses not to teach such a maiming action for what, (I assume) is a right punch attack. However nothing about it NOT being taught suggests that you could or should not utilize it if you felt your life was in danger. Simply be prepared to articulate it that way should law enforcement become involved.

 

[dubljay]

here is the "book" version as it appears in the manual (atleast the pages copied I was given).

21. GATHERING CLOUDS (front straight right punch)
1. With feet together, step to 10 o clock with your left food (into a horse) as yur left hand parries your opponents right punch. Simultaneously deliver a right inward horizontal knuckle rake (palm up) to opponents right rib cage.
2. Follow through with the motion of your right hand and immediately deliver a right horizontal outward chop to opponents right floating ribcage.
3. Without hsitation move forward and inside of opponents right knee (between 11 and 12 oclock) with your right leg as to buckle your opponent. Simultaneously strike to opponents right ribcage with a right inward horizontal elbow strike without cocking. Keep your left and up as a guard.
4. With your right leg between opponents legs, do a right front scoop kick and plant your right foot back (into a left neutral bow) to 7 oclock.
5. Left front cross over and cover out to 7 o clock.


I learned gathering clouds with two variations of the ending. The variation used depends on your position to your opponent. Depending on timing and how hard your opponent comes in you may be in front of or behind your opponent. Varation "A" is with your legs behind your oppenent, so it ends with a right heel scoop to the groin with a cover out. Variation "B" is the "book" version with some inserts for when your legs are infron of the opponent, calling for an eye hook, front scoop followed by a chop to the throat then covering out.


-Josh-

 

[Shodan]

Thanks everyone!!

KenpoMama- indeed!! It was Rob.......I said Kaith.......sorry.

Doc- again.....indeed!! I did mean to say eye "hook" and not "rake".....silly pregnancy brain (or at least that's what I can blame it on right now safely!!) Thank you for the history info.....very interesting. Yes......I figure with all the confusion sometimes.....it's best to just go with what works best for me.......as long as I can be sure I am not breaking any rules or principles.

Dubljay- Thank you for the tech. write-up. Yes- I have learned both ways too- only I learned the eye hook with both the front or the rear scoop kick.......not just the front.

Again- thanks all!! I appreciate it!!

:asian: :karate:

 

[Michael Billings]

Gathering Clouds - the eye hook is the last move before the extension (along with the scoop kick):

According to Mr. Parker's "Notes" - the "Gathering" was the inward or "gathering" motion of the arms in the 1st move.

Of interest is that in Tracy or my old Chinese Kenpo, it was Parting the Waves, and named for the scoop kick that ended the base technique.

[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]21. Gathering Clouds (Front- Right Reverse Punch)[/size][/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]1. An opponent at 12:00 in a left fighting stance throws a right reverse punch.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]2. Step your left foot to 10:30 into a left neutral bow facing 12:00 as you simultaneously execute a left inward parry to the outside of your opponent's right arm and a right inward vertical middle knuckle rake to your opponent's right ribs.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]3. Immediately execute a right outward hand sword to your opponent's lower right ribs.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]4. Step your right foot to 1:30 into a right neutral bow to buckle your opponent's right knee with your right knee as you execute a right inward elbow to your opponent's right ribs. (Your left hand is now bracing against your opponent's right elbow.)[/size][/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]5. Execute a right front scoop kick to your opponent's groin as you execute a right two-finger eye hook to your opponent's left eye.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]6. Plant your right scoop kick back to 7:30 into a left neutral bow facing 1:30.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]7. Execute a left front kick to your opponent's groin. Plant your left foot, gauging, as you execute a right front kick to your opponent's chin. (This should cause your opponent to fall back to 1:30.)[/size][/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]8. Land forward towards your opponent, gauging the distance, as you execute a left knife-edge kick to the inside of your opponent's right knee.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]9. Set your left foot near your right and execute a right knife-edge kick to the inside of your opponent's left knee.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]10. Plant your right foot forward to 1:30 into a right neutral bow as your left hand checks low and your right hand cocked at your left shoulder. Step your left foot to 1:30 into a left front crossover as you execute a right back fist through your opponent's temple.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]11. Pivot clockwise into a left neutral bow as you execute a left inward downward hammer fist to the back of your opponent's neck. (Your right hand cocks at your right hip.)[/size][/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]12. Rotate counterclockwise into a left front twist stance as you execute a right lifting back knuckle to the underside of your opponent's chin. Follow this with a right round kick to the side of your opponent's head.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]13. From the kick, land in a right front crossover and hop into a left one-legged stance.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]14. Survey. Step into a right front crossover and cross out to 7:30.[/size][/font]

-Michael