Forever Training
Yellow Belt
Well, actually you don't have to believe in Jesus to believe in Heaven.
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From a Christian Perspective and From a Biblical Perspective
- Thread starter PhotonGuy
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Well, actually you don't have to believe in Jesus to believe in Heaven.
Forever Training
Yellow Belt
Photonguy,
This is how I understand it:
As a baptized Christian who believes that Christ died for our sins, you are already saved. What I believe you are missing is that, without the pressure of feeling you have to do go works to get into Heaven, you should want to do good works as a way of thanking Him for his ultimate sacrifice. It is how Christians honor Him, to follow in his footsteps and help those in need. How can you call yourself a true Christian and not want to spread His word by doing good works?
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Because you said if you don't believe in Jesus you can't go to heaven. Well if you believe in heaven you believe in Jesus. You can't have one without the other. So the pointof lliving a good life and not going to heaven isn't valid since if you believe in the bible and you believe in heaven then you believe in Jesus. If you don't believe in Jesus then you don't believe in heaven.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Well since this topic was from a Christian andBiblical Perspective then yes you do
Yes you're right, however, the good works are a result of salvation, not a requirement for salvation. However, Christians grow at different speeds and some Christians never really grow up and spend the rest of their lives as baby Christians. For instance, one of the best good works that a Christian can do is to tell other people about Jesus and about how He provides salvation. As it is, though, lots of Christians don't do that even though they should. At the very least, you should tell your friends, family, and loved ones about Jesus and salvation although I think a Christian should go way beyond that. Furthermore, when you mention a baptized Christian, no, you don't have to be physically baptized to be saved and to claim that would be adding works to salvation. A Christian should be physically baptized but its purpose is to serve as a public display of your faith, not to fulfill your salvation. Jesus already fulfilled our salvation on the cross, so no, physical baptism is not a requirement for salvation.
Yes the Bible does say you need to believe in Jesus to get to Heaven, however, by belief, it isn't so much an intellectual belief in God and Jesus but belief as a reliance on Jesus to get to Heaven. You got to believe that Jesus is your savior, that He died for your sins and thus provides the means to get to Heaven. Just intellectually believing in Jesus won't get you to Heaven.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Again of you believe in heaven then you believe in Jesus. Not just that he was a person that lived but you really BELIEVE in him. If you don't really believe in him then you don't really believe in Heaven.
Not necessarily. The Pharisees believed in Heaven but they didn't believe in Jesus. At least they didn't believe that He was their savior. They did believe that Jesus was a real person obviously since they met Him face to face, but they didn't believe that He was the Messiah. The Pharisees thought they could get into Heaven with good works, and they were wrong.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Your post was from a Christian perspective. There are lots of religions that believe in heaven but thats not the topic you posted youasked in a Christain view. In a Christian view only a true belief in Jesus is the way to heaven.
Yes that's right, however, a person can believe that Heaven is real and not believe in salvation through Jesus Christ alone. Believing that Heaven is real is one thing, getting there is something else.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
You cant believe in the Christian version of Heaven and not believen in Jesus.
Right, well the fact of the matter is that we become all too obsessed with being "worldly" successful. We want to be "successful" in life, what the world sees as successful. Working a good prestigious job that's productive and pays well, having a good family, ect. The fact of the matter is such stuff will not get you an inch closer to Heaven. There is certainly nothing wrong with doing those things, but in the long run it probably doesn't matter.
Okay, I don't have time to reply in depth now....but I'll be back soon with a mickle or so of my opinion!
Forever Training
Yellow Belt
YondanChris,
I was wondering when you were going to chime in. You have shown great restraint!
oftheherd1
Senior Master
I was also hoping to wait for Yondanchris, having a lot of respect for his views. But he is apparently still tied up, which is understandable.
First, for those who may not have seen my posts previously on the subject, I accept the King James Bible as God's inspired word. I believe it is to be used in all matters of faith and doctrine. That is my belief, but no one else is required to hold that belief.
With that said, my first disagreement is with the title of this thread. To me, Christianity and the Bible must have the same perspective. At best, the title is redundant. At worst, which may be how it is accepted by some who read it, is that there is room for divergence between the Christian and Biblical perspectives. I do not accept that.
To the OP, when you say this life isn't important, I don't know what you are trying to say. I wonder if you left something unsaid that you wish to discuss at a later point in your thread. I believe life is God given. I don't think I am qualified to say this life isn't important, given that I believe God gave it; he must have had a reason.
Several of the posts in this thread talk about whether or not there is a heaven, and how to get there. These are matters of faith. My belief is that there is indeed a heaven and I will go there when I die. So then the question becomes why do I believe that and how do I know I will get there.
I believe the Bible tells us there is a heaven. Jesus told the disciples His Father's house (heaven) had many mansions and that he was going there to prepare a place for them. Jesus also told the thief on the cross that the thief would be with Jesus in paradise (heaven) that day. Paul and John both write about having been given visions of heaven. I believe in heaven.
How does one get there? In the Bible, we are told that Jesus is the Son of God, and very God. Jesus said he is the way, the truth, and the life, and that no man can come to the Father except through Him. In Romans 3:10, Paul tells us "As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one;" we are not right with God.
In Romans 3:23, Paul tells us "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." You may sometimes hear people say they don't believe they could be saved because of all the bad things (sins) they have done. But we all start out in the same boat, condemned by one man's (Adam) sin. We cannot enter heaven as unsaved sinners. We are no longer under the law to be able to sacrifice animals for our sins. What can save us?
In Romans 5:8, Paul says "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Then in Romans 6:23, Paul says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
So we have learned that we are all sinners, but now we see that God loved us no matter, and that Christ died and shed his blood for us. And that unsaved, we will suffer death, which is the eternal death from which there is no reprieve, but that God has given us the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ. The latter is important to me in that I believe I cannot earn salvation; it is a gift, and one does not pay for a gift.
The following verses, also from Romans, tell us that we only have to call on the name of the Lord (obviously that implies that we do so sincerely, with faith and belief) to be able to claim that salvation and go to heaven when we die.
Romans 10:9 – That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the LORD Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10 - For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:11 - For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:12 - For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
If anyone believes those Bible verses, and wishes to be saved, I would suggest you sincerely pray to God something like this: "God, I know I am a sinner and deserve to go to hell when I die. I believe that Jesus died and shed his blood for my sins. I ask forgiveness for my sins, and that Jesus come into my heart. Please take me to heaven when I die."
That is what I believe. I understand some choose not to believe there is a God, or choose to have another belief system than Christianity. Each person has choices to make. I believe in the choices I have made. Others may not.
But because I believe we are born in sin, unsaved, and must make a conscious decision to be saved, this life cannot be unimportant or without meaning.
YMMV
Yondanchris - I hope you will still find time to come in and comment. I always find your comments worth reading and thinking on. I am particularly curious as to how much of what I have written above you agree or disagree with.
I believe you're right about how to get saved. I also agree about using the King James Bible. If my title is redundant its because I want to make the point that Christianity is based on the Bible and it comes from the Bible. I agree with you that we are born into sin and to be saved we have to make the conscious decision to trust Jesus Christ alone to save us. Jesus already paid for all our sins by dying on the cross and when He rose all our sins had been paid for. When I say this life isn't important what I mean is that most people are obsessed with living a good life, working a dream job, making lots of money, having a nice family, ect. We get wrapped up in all the hopes, dreams, and ambitions of this life. That stuff might be all fine and good but I don't think its all that important in the long run because it doesn't get us to Heaven. The only thing that's really important is for a person's soul to be saved, its much more important than living a good life, and the only way for a person's soul to be saved is for then to accept Jesus Christ as their savior. Salvation is permanent so once a person does accept Jesus Christ as their savior they are going to Heaven no matter what, so after that I don't see how this life is important.
Hyoho
2nd Black Belt
You are sounding almost Buddhist. What happened to the repent or end up burning for eternity in the all encompassing hell Christianity created to justify itself? Also the, "If your not one of us your going there anyway".
I think perhaps you should try and explain your theory to the people living around me and down at the bottom of the island in Tacloban and Ormoc, Leyte.
I think perhaps you should try and explain your theory to the people living around me and down at the bottom of the island in Tacloban and Ormoc, Leyte.
It's not my theory its what the Bible says.
yakuzanobi
White Belt
This life is important for the fact that salvation happens here while we are living. It can't happen once you've died. This life is not so important because we don't want to become of this world, meaning not letting the things of this world become more important that the One who made it all because it's a temporary stay anyway.
I apologize for the delay, this thread has been on my mind and I now finally have enough free time to truly focus my attention to this!
oftheheard1 I think you did a great job trying to analyze the OP and asking crucial questions of intent and the ponderings of the OP.
Some observations about the discussion at hand:
Pre-amble: This explanation is intended for those who are Christians or who believe that the Bible is a letter/message from God and useful for teaching
(2 Timothy 3:16-17) If you are not a Christian and reading this...it may be confusing because of many presuppositions taken on my part in writing this reply.
1) I think that the OP is feeling much like the author of Ecclesiastes when he wrote
“Meaningless! Meaningless! ...Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless” (Ecclesiastes 1:2). The author was expressing the aggravation of life and the seemingly monotony of life. The same author later said “He has also set eternity in the hearts of men...” (Ecclesiastes 3:11)
so we as humans are conflicted within ourselves not being able to understand the "meaning of life" and yet have a "yearning for eternity".
Can we say that man is an oxy-moron? I think so...
but only if we look at life from the shallow end of the pool..sort to speak!
We see humanity at its worst: war, greed, slothfulness, lust, idolatry...ect
no wonder the author of Ecclesiastes was aggrivated (TBH I am too)
2) The real meaning of life is EASY!
The meaning of life is not a mystery, it's not "hidden", it's not mystical
The meaning of life has been apparent from the "Beginning" (Genesis)
Genesis tells us:
"Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness"
(Gen 1:26)
The intrinsic value of man and our meaning comes from our image....
the very image, nature (eternality, characteristics), value...is from GOD.
God made man a special creature ABOVE all of the rest of creation
(Gen 2:18-25)
God had a relationship with man from the Beginning (Gen 3:8)
But as we know Man broke that relationship, position, authority when he/she sinned in the garden separating (physically and spiritually) them from God. (Genesis 3)
Jesus came to restore that relationship and to bring us a new value/purpose/goal.
Before Jesus (the Christ/Messiah) we lost our way because of sin and religion (man's attempt to reach to God through "good" works...Eph 2:8-9, Romans 10:1-3)
Jesus restored our relationship with God and with that restoration we became Children/heirs/servants of God (John 1:12, John 10:10, John 14:6)
Jesus before he left us gave many parables and illustrations to live our lives by, but he reduced our goal/mission/meaning of life into (I believe) 3 specific teachings:
A) Love God - Love Others (Matthew 22:36-40)
Jesus demonstrated his love towards us...we should then love others
(Rom 5:8, Luke 7:47)
B) Show others this love through the Gospel (Matthew 28:18-20)
Death, Burrial, Ressurection, Return (1 Corinthians 15:1-8)
The Gospel in a nut-shell
C) Adopt the mission of Jesus: To seek and to save the lost (Luke 19:10)
It is really that easy.... the rest of "religion" the rest of "Christianity"
(doctrine, sacraments...ect) Is what messes Christians up.
I believe that once we realize that we have been given a singular mission, we have one of 3 choices:
1) Adopt the Mission
Make our lives around the sharing, teaching, and preaching of the Gospel.
2) Dismiss the Mission
Rationalizing Jesus' commands and example through deflection or apathy
"that's the pastor's job", "God doesn't expect that from me",
3) Reject the Mission
"God doesn't need me", "Good works will get anyone there",
"that's not really what God said"
So what will it be boys and girls?
We have come to the cross-roads of your Christian walk?
You have a three pronged fork in the road...will it be road 1,2, or 3?
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7:13-14 NIV)
Sorry for the long post...if you got through all of it (I would be suprised).
I will also post a bit from a book I am working on about martial arts and faith.
The section will be on adopting the Mission of Jesus (Luke 19:10)
