Free Elections in Iraq

[Fight with attitude]

Sure it is. If you can say, you can claim it. Why all these posts that try to have it both ways? Either he's a murdering thug and our country has done the right thing, or he's just mis-understood and we should put the old boy back in charge.

This isn't a black and white issue, it's shades of grey like anything else in this world.

 

[heretic888]

Four years ago, the vast majority of Iraqis had running water, working electricity, a stable supply of employment and food, healthcare of some sort, and did not have to worry about constant terrorist insurgencies causing them and their families harm. Their standard of living is exponentially poorer than it was those few years ago.

Now, don't get me wrong, this isn't some kinda wacko vidication of Hussein. posted by Heretic888

Sure it is. If you can say, you can claim it. Why all these posts that try to have it both ways? Either he's a murdering thug and our country has done the right thing, or he's just mis-understood and we should put the old boy back in charge.
BTW, you're all wrong in saying (as you minimze a mass murderer ) Iraqis "did not have to worry about constant terrorist insurgencies(sic) causing them and their families harm..." What a load of nonsense.
Mass graves, rape rooms, thousands gassed and more shot down or made to disappear and you gloss over it? Those same insurgents still killing their own people used to run the whole country...Hell, they were the country.
Geeez, if you're rooting for the guy, just say so. But don't pretend there's some kind of balance here. It ain't even close.

You clearly have a fundamental divorcement from reality here. At no point, was I "supporting" Saddam Hussein.

Of course, this kind of irrational "logic" is typical of the Extreme Right --- either you think in completely White and Black terms, or you're confused. Its incredible the level of naivette and arrogance we see here.

Yes, a dictator can provide much in the way of stability and order for a country. And, yes, he can still be a murdering sociopath.

And, to note, more people died in two months' time during the American invasion than they did under the past ten years' rule of Saddam Hussein. Might wanna get your facts straight before lobbing accusations.

Ta ta.

 

[ghostdog2]

You clearly have a fundamental divorcement from reality here. At no point, was I "supporting" Saddam Hussein. Heretic888

Coulda fooled me, but I'll take your word for it. The rest of the post is name calling..the kind of quibbling that kept SH in power for years and that would have him there still if it were up to clear thinkers on the Left.

pip pip

 

[heretic888]

You clearly have a fundamental divorcement from reality here. At no point, was I "supporting" Saddam Hussein. Heretic888

Coulda fooled me, but I'll take your word for it. The rest of the post is name calling..the kind of quibbling that kept SH in power for years and that would have him there still if it were up to clear thinkers on the Left.

pip pip

Actually, the part you quoted was name-calling (and well-warranted, I might add). The rest of the post was actual meat.

You're not exactly disproving my "fundamental divorcement from reality" thesis here. Big surprise.

 

[Flatlander]

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Mod Note:
Please, keep this discussion polite, and on topic.

Thank you.

-Dan Bowman-
-Martial Talk Moderator-
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[lvwhitebir]

2) The claim that the Iraqis are "better off" now than they were, say, four years ago isn't particularly accurate...

They may have problems right now with water, electricity, etc, but their overall future is brighter. It's probably been said before, but the insurgents are the ones fighting the rebuilding of the infrastructure. We're trying to get it working. Most of the civilians that are in the country are risking their lives doing just that. Unfortunately, the insurgents are blowing up pipelines, etc. in order to create the problems.

All budding democracies have had "short-term" problems (Russia, Germany, Japan, etc). Should we conclude that democracies are bad because of it? By the way, we helped these countries rebuild in a lot of the same ways as Iraq. We pumped gobs of money into Germany and Japan after WWII in order to get their countries back together again. We helped to create their constitutions and help them learn self-rule. Let's go back to those countries and ask which form of government they prefer and if the pain was worth it.

I'm truly saddened by those who look at the Iraqi elections and say it doesn't matter because of some political viewpoint against the Republican leadership. Just about every political leader in the last 15 years has said that the middle east would be safer without the brutal, totalitarian governments. We're in the process of helping one make the adjustment and just because you don't like how we got here you think it's stupid to do or that they won't be better off.

I don't care what you think about the reasons for us being there. I don't care if you think the votes are "valid" because the Sunni's didn't vote. Seeing millions of people walking miles, carrying their infirmed family members, with the threat of being killed constantly hanging over their heads is inspiring! It puts our population to shame.

This is going to be one of the defining moments in history, similar to the tearing down of the Berlin wall and all you can say is they don't have enough running water so it's not worth it.

WhiteBirch

 

[heretic888]

They may have problems right now with water, electricity, etc, but their overall future is brighter.

Please note that I did not say "overall future". I said right now.

And, the truth is that right now their present lives aren't particularly cheery. This does not negate what we are doing over there, but people need to stop pretending the Iraqis are magically, instantaneously "better off" because their dicatatorship is gone. They need some kind of intrastructure and order to replace it.

It's probably been said before, but the insurgents are the ones fighting the rebuilding of the infrastructure. We're trying to get it working. Most of the civilians that are in the country are risking their lives doing just that. Unfortunately, the insurgents are blowing up pipelines, etc. in order to create the problems.

Yeah, but just think of how much better rebuilding the infrastructure would be going if our presidential administration actually had a working plan for doing so.

The sad, sad truth is that the initial 'plan' of the administration is that the Iraqis would see us as liberators (not occupiers), and that they would self-create a working democracy in a matter of weeks. Of course, all the experts and strategists told them otherwise, but what do they know?? After all, you don't need things like "facts" when "evidence" when you've got a pre-formed ideology in your corner.

This is reflected in the actual success of the infrastructure building thus far.

All budding democracies have had "short-term" problems (Russia, Germany, Japan, etc). Should we conclude that democracies are bad because of it?

No one, as far as I know, is concluding that democracries are "bad".

Rather, what is more alarming is the American public's willingess to attribute strategic incompetence to "short term problems". We have occupied this country for nearly two years. The majority of the populace still do not have electricity, running water, medical supplies, or an income/job of any kind.

Yet, despite that, we still seem capable enough of making sure their oil lines are well-protected. Surprise, surprise.

 

[MisterMike]

We have not occupied Iraq for 2 years. We are still trying to secure areas of it. Try getting a job or traveling while armed militants are out there.

If we go in full force, we look like the bad guys.
If we don't secure it fast enough, we look like the bad guys.

Which way do you see it?

 

[michaeledward]

Just wondering how long our occupation will require to secure the 12 mile road between Bagdhad and the Bagdhad Airport. Currently, it is not possible to safely drive this road.


150,000 US troops & 120,000 trained Iraqi's can't seem to secure this little strip of pavement.

<shrugg>

 

[lvwhitebir]

Please note that I did not say "overall future". I said right now.

And, the truth is that right now their present lives aren't particularly cheery. This does not negate what we are doing over there, but people need to stop pretending the Iraqis are magically, instantaneously "better off" because their dicatatorship is gone. They need some kind of intrastructure and order to replace it.

Unfortunatly this negativity is seen, at least by me, as being down on the election as a whole. This thread is specifically about the election and yet you pull in the current-day problems.

Yeah, but just think of how much better rebuilding the infrastructure would be going if our presidential administration actually had a working plan for doing so.

And who says there's no plan for doing so? There are a ton of people working on just that. It's the basis for our civilian population over there.

The sad, sad truth is that the initial 'plan' of the administration is that the Iraqis would see us as liberators (not occupiers),

I believe the majority do see us a liberators. It's the minority insurgents that see us a occupiers.

Rather, what is more alarming is the American public's willingess to attribute strategic incompetence to "short term problems". We have occupied this country for nearly two years. The majority of the populace still do not have electricity, running water, medical supplies, or an income/job of any kind.

You'll have to spin off another thread to talk about the "incompetence." I'd would be interested in hearing specific evidence of incompetence. I've heard it put out there by politicians, but with no specific items (other than we shouldn't be there in the first place).

As far as the infrastructure problems, we're not causing it, we're trying to repair it. It's the Saddamists and the minority fundamentalists that are causing the problems. What I don't think they understand is that the longer the infrastructure remains broken, the longer we're going to be there.

Yet, despite that, we still seem capable enough of making sure their oil lines are well-protected. Surprise, surprise.

We do? The insurgents still bomb those too. One of the reasons I see us protecting the oil is because that's Iraqs main income. Without it the country will have nothing to base its economy on later.

Bottom line is: the election was great! It shows that the people of Iraq are tired of tyrannical rule. No one forced them to vote and they had a lot of reasons for staying away.

WhiteBirch