Frank Shamrock Vs. Renzo Gracie on EXC...

[zDom]

I won't comment on the whole right/wrong or foul/fair argument as it seems to be well covered.

But I would like to say that from a self-defense POV (the usual mindset of a hapkido-in), it was nice to see something I have "armchaired" seen put into practice: using the knees to the ribs and head when side-mounted.

It looked like it was effective even before the knockout head strike.

Brings up a question, too, regarding options while using the sidemount: do the rules allow dropping the point of the elbow into ribs while in the sidemount position? Howabout the head?

 

[007tycoon]

Rules are rules. Frank intentionally violated the rules and was DQ'd. Totally justified. He was getting his *** handed to him anyway, so I guess he took the easy way out.

 

[Gufbal1982]

I personally would like to see a rematch. They are great fighters. I don't think Shamrock did the knees with malicous intent, but they were done. Herb Dean followed the rules set by Elite XC. What can you do? No point in crying over spilled milk. Let's just wait for the rematch and see how it turns out. Who knows...if Shamrock wins then there can be a rubber match! Would be pretty cool in my eyes...

 

[James Kovacich]

I personally would like to see a rematch. They are great fighters. I don't think Shamrock did the knees with malicous intent, but they were done. Herb Dean followed the rules set by Elite XC. What can you do? No point in crying over spilled milk. Let's just wait for the rematch and see how it turns out. Who knows...if Shamrock wins then there can be a rubber match! Would be pretty cool in my eyes...

Well said!

 

[James Kovacich]

I don't go out to San Jose until Friday, so I can't say anything definitvely. However, though you are correct that being side mounted is not the best position, I really believe that Frank honestly didn't care. (If I am corrected on it this weekend, I will report back). IMO, Frank feels he is dominate enough in ANY position that he will just let it go there and he will win.

If you remember Frank's first win in the UFC against Kevin Jackson, Frank didn't resist at all the takedown attempt by an Olympic gold medal wrestler. He then went on to submit him with an armbar within seconds. Frank's general game plan (and the way we train) is to be extremely good in all areas, then wait for the other guy to make a mistake (or we keep up a dynamic enough presure to force one) and then take advantage of it.

I could be wrong (and will report back honestly if I was), but I really believe that Frank was as happy as a pig in mud to be where he was. If he could have KO'ed Renzo Gracie with strikes from a standing position (like he did Cesar), it would have been less work and a quicker victory. OTOH, I know that with the length of the fight, I would have been quite comfortable in the bottom of a side mount if I were able to land kness. I would have felt that I was getting the better of the exchange and was wearing him down, because that is something that we train extensively. Also, Renzo doesn't have much muscle density in his back to absorb those knees. If I were Frank, I would have thought I was in the better position.

Let me state this clearly, IMO (I did not talk to him about this specifically before this bout, but I have heard him voice this type of opinion before) going into the fight Frank was confident that whether it was stand up or ground, striking or grappling, that he had a signifcant edge. I know he had (though if my assessment is wrong, this may have changed) no fears of a pure ground submission contest with ANY of the Gracies. Over the years, he's been more of the mindset of proving that his strategies and methods were not only more versitile, but superior in every respect. I believe that if Renzo had not tried to get away from the knee strikes by exposing his head and neck in a north/south position, Frank would have gone on to prove just that.

Do you have the update?

 

[Kwan Jang]

Frank was not there and no one around there has heard from or seen him since the fight (I really don't want to read anything into this either way, since I honestly don't know what was up with that). One of the guys who trains with him regularly mentioned what I did about Renzo not doing anything with the side mount and Frank seemed to be getting the better of the exchange ("If it's working, why change it?"). OTOH, there were a few others who are close to him and part of his camp that mentioned that they thought Frank did not look very good in the fight.

Basically I've taken the viewpoint that has been presented: If Frank utterly destroys Renzo in a rematch by whatever means neccesary and then fights Renzo's fight in the rubber match and wins (without illegal techniques), then I think my interpretation will be proved valid. If not, then I guess that I'm giving Frank too much credit. Time will tell.

 

[Cruentus]

Of course, we are talking about two very experienced and talented competitors. At any point in that match, Frank could have hit Renzo just right from the standing position and knocked him out, or reversed to a more dominate position and won. On the other hand, Renzo could have pulled a submission out from the side mount, or redirected his position or strategy to better control the fight.

That's what is exciting about watching two people who are very talented, and who seem relatively evenly matched.

So a win on either side would only prove that one had a better fight game that day, rather then anything else.

It would be good to see a rematch, though. No one wants to win or lose by DQ.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I would like to see a rematch as well and I am sure that someone will pick up on it and make it happen!

 

[zDom]

So a win on either side would only prove that one had a better fight game that day, rather then anything else.

This is so very true of most all matchups between very skilled fighters, IMO.

 

[James Kovacich]

Frank was not there and no one around there has heard from or seen him since the fight (I really don't want to read anything into this either way, since I honestly don't know what was up with that). One of the guys who trains with him regularly mentioned what I did about Renzo not doing anything with the side mount and Frank seemed to be getting the better of the exchange ("If it's working, why change it?"). OTOH, there were a few others who are close to him and part of his camp that mentioned that they thought Frank did not look very good in the fight.

Basically I've taken the viewpoint that has been presented: If Frank utterly destroys Renzo in a rematch by whatever means neccesary and then fights Renzo's fight in the rubber match and wins (without illegal techniques), then I think my interpretation will be proved valid. If not, then I guess that I'm giving Frank too much credit. Time will tell.

Frank dosen't need to much credit. He is a great fighter. His fighters told you that he didn't look good "that" nite and that would be in-line with what I had suggested "that maybe he overtrained."

I didn't particularly like the rules (they stood them up to fast). In my opinion they favored the strikers. What I will say for the grapplers. If they are good, they will hold you down and you will have a hard time getting out. Renzo held him and Frank didn't get out. In my opinion they both had a bad night and the "rubbermatch" should tell the truth.

 

[matt.m]

well, I watched the fight. Gracie had that deer in headlights look. Just my .02 but I thought Frank was an absolute jerk the way he handled the injury

 

[Gufbal1982]

well, I watched the fight. Gracie had that deer in headlights look. Just my .02 but I thought Frank was an absolute jerk the way he handled the injury

Yup. I agree. The deer in the headlights look is the "flash knockout" I was referring to. I know the look...I get it a lot in sparring :uhyeah: