form variations

[Sylo]

Hey guys.

I'm currently working on Joon Gun.

Its a bit tougher (IMO) than yul gok was. The cat stance and palm heel strikes throw me off.

I thought I'd take a look at some videos on youtube to get some pointers.

Weirdly enough, after about 50 videos I hadn't seen anyone who does it like our school does.

several were sine wave, several were what looked like sine wave.. but I don't think were supposed to be. They held their hands differently on the ridgehands and palm heels. The first section.. where its..

ridgehand ----> low block/front kick-----> cat stance/palm heel

none of the videos I watched turned the ridgehand into a block during the kick. Are we doing it incorrectly?

Also, our forms are very solid and precise. We don't do alot of "bouncing". Our forms look like they generate lots of power, because they do.

Yet out of 50 videos.. not 1 looked powerful.

thoughts?

 

[hkfuie]

Sylo,

I feel your pain! (JK)

I agree about the vids. I don't think the gup forms of Ray Smeathers are on YouTube. I wonder if looking at his videos if you would find a style more similar to yours? His are the forms I look at when I need to.

My teacher has a very silly sounding word for the up and down motion in forms and in our school you do not want to hear that you are doing it...it's DILLYBOPPING! The dreaded dillybopping! LOL!

I checked and only BB forms on there from him. Too bad. I don't know of any to recommend for you for gup forms. Good luck!

 

[terryl965]

Sylo the only way to really learn them is by your instructor. Too many people add or take away stuff to there liking withen certain patterns.

 

[hkfuie]

Agreed, Terry. Sounds like Sylo's instructor added a low block (or someone did). After re-reading your post, Sylo, I didn't answer your question.

Are you doing the form incorrectly? No - correct is what your instructor says is correct. I trust whoever added that block had a good reason. I would not argue with their right to do so. It makes what you learn unique and I see no problem with that.

About the forms you saw on youtube lacking power...I am so done with all that argument. Go there if you want to. The thing is, they believe in what they are doing. If you look at the Smeathers videos you will see comments of some people complaining that he has no sine wave and that he is doing it "wrong." Personally, I agree with you, Sylo. I prefer my style, but in the interest of peace and a desire to have friends in many different styles, I let that argument be. Also, I respect others' rights to judge that for themselves. If they like it, then it is good for them. I have no need to change their minds.

I have to be honest...I have never honestly tried sine wave. If any of that snuck into my forms...I would hate to be told I'm DILLYBOPPING! (I get such a laugh out of this b/c my instructor is veerrryyyy serious, rarely jokes. And he says this silly word...I can barely contain myself! If he said it to me I'd DIE - from trying to hold in the laughter of hearing that word from him) So... you see, this really is a life or death subject for me.

Also, as some here will tell you...some people exagerrate the sinewave way more than it should be done if following GM Choi.

 

[Sylo]

Agreed, Terry. Sounds like Sylo's instructor added a low block (or someone did). After re-reading your post, Sylo, I didn't answer your question.

Are you doing the form incorrectly? No - correct is what your instructor says is correct. I trust whoever added that block had a good reason. I would not argue with their right to do so. It makes what you learn unique and I see no problem with that.

About the forms you saw on youtube lacking power...I am so done with all that argument. Go there if you want to. The thing is, they believe in what they are doing. If you look at the Smeathers videos you will see comments of some people complaining that he has no sine wave and that he is doing it "wrong." Personally, I agree with you, Sylo. I prefer my style, but in the interest of peace and a desire to have friends in many different styles, I let that argument be. Also, I respect others' rights to judge that for themselves. If they like it, then it is good for them. I have no need to change their minds.

I have to be honest...I have never honestly tried sine wave. If any of that snuck into my forms...I would hate to be told I'm DILLYBOPPING! (I get such a laugh out of this b/c my instructor is veerrryyyy serious, rarely jokes. And he says this silly word...I can barely contain myself! If he said it to me I'd DIE - from trying to hold in the laughter of hearing that word from him) So... you see, this really is a life or death subject for me.

Also, as some here will tell you...some people exagerrate the sinewave way more than it should be done if following GM Choi.

Yeah, I'm not really trying to start a "sinewave is bad, no sinewave is good" thread. There are different ways of doing it. I'm just trying to find someone or a video of someone who does forms the way we do them.. so I can practice on my off time. I like to be a step ahead when I go to class. So I like to study, and trying to learn anything from videos that don't do things the way we do, would just hurt more than help.

 

[bluekey88]

Yeah, I'm not really trying to start a "sinewave is bad, no sinewave is good" thread. There are different ways of doing it. I'm just trying to find someone or a video of someone who does forms the way we do them.. so I can practice on my off time. I like to be a step ahead when I go to class. So I like to study, and trying to learn anything from videos that don't do things the way we do, would just hurt more than help.

Maybe your instructor or a higher ranked student would be willing to do the form for you whiel you video it? I've done that for a couple of my younger studnets. Dad'll whip out the old camera phone and I'll run through a fomr...then they have a reference tool for later.

Peace,
Erik

 

[mozzandherb]

Also, our forms are very solid and precise. We don't do alot of "bouncing". Our forms look like they generate lots of power, because they do.

Actuall a well performed sine wave pattern creates the maximum amount of power possible for the movements in our patterns. Here's a link to Joon Gun and what I believe to be a really well executed pattern. Maybe you can take this demonstration into consideration, but if your instructor insists that you follow his method, then I guess you have to do his way.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=h3kYpCaGYxk

 

[Twin Fist]

i disagree

Actuall a well performed sine wave pattern creates the maximum amount of power possible

 

[mozzandherb]

i disagree

O.K and why do you disagree?

 

[Twin Fist]

not gonna do it, not in this thread, this thread already has a topic

 

[mozzandherb]

not gonna do it, not in this thread, this thread already has a topic

O.K then start a new thread with this as the topic because I would like to hear your views

 

[dancingalone]

Actuall a well performed sine wave pattern creates the maximum amount of power possible for the movements in our patterns. Here's a link to Joon Gun and what I believe to be a really well executed pattern. Maybe you can take this demonstration into consideration, but if your instructor insists that you follow his method, then I guess you have to do his way.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=h3kYpCaGYxk

This has been hashed over repeatedly. Just do a search on sine wave and you'll find plenty of posts about it, mostly contrary to the Choi/ITF perspective.

 

[Sylo]

yes, wasn't intending on this being a sine wave argument thread.

Its been beaten to death.

Do it the way your school does it and be happy

 

[BrandonLucas]

Our dojang is different than most. Our instructor has been teaching since 1978, and continues to teach the same cirriculum that he started teaching back then.

I am aware that things have changed and have been updated, but the cirriculum that he teaches is effective, IMO.

We practice the ITF style, but we are not affiliated with the ITF, or any other organizations. Our forms are technically the Chang H'on patterns...but I actually asked our instructor about this a while back, and he referred to them as the Chun Ji patterns...which, from what I understand, is what they were referred to when he learned them...obviously termed after the white-belt form.

For example: I am currently doing Kwang-Ge, and I am currently a recommended 2nd dan. I had trouble at first figuring out exactly where I would stand in the big picture compared to other blackbelts, organizations, and schools. I had never heard of recommended ranks before, and while I understood the concept, I didn't know where I would fit in.

As far as what I understand, Kwang-Ge is considered to be a 1st dan form currently, according to the ITF. Does this mean that I'm any less of a blackbelt? Does this mean that I do not deserve the rank?

No, and no. My instructor decided that I earned the rank that I am recognized as in our dojang. So why wouldn't I present myself as the rank as I'm understood to be? The ITF may not recognize me as a recommended 2nd degree, but I'm not affiliated with the ITF as an orginization. We are still learning the ITF forms, even if they are not up-to-date. The way I see it, if what we're doing is effective and was taught from an instructor with legit creds, then it doesn't matter that it's outdated or no longer recognized. That is my opinion, though, and that opinion only applies to valid TMA's...and that subject can be brought up in a different thread.

All of that being said, it is hard to find videos of the Chang H'on patterns that reflect what we're being taught, because of the fact that the patterns are the same ones that were taught 30 + years ago. Things change over time. TMA's are no exception to that, and I understand that. But, that's actually what I love about our dojang: it's stayed the same, more or less, for 30 years, and the TKD that is taught there is no less effective than the modern TKD being taught by the ITF to date.

So, basically, the videos to be found are probably going to be vids from the 70's and 80's era of ITF TKD...Hee Il Cho et al. I think if we can get some of those vids, those will reflect the patterns that we are doing now.

I'm working with Sylo on Joon Gun as much as we can outside of class, but I know that vids would help a great deal. I would also like a reference for Kwan Ge, so we'll start hitting up the old-school material, I think.

As far as the sine wave discussion, it's been done to death. Really. Please don't let this thread go down that tired, worn down road.