Fork of martial artists for Christ, dialogue

[TSDTexan]

It's the other side of the quote. If the one is true, the corollary also is. Neither is true in the absolute, though there is real truth in both.

This time I agree, but not as well stated

 

[Tez3]

'Messianic so called Jews' are Christians, they aren't Jews. To be Jewish is a lot of things, it's not about religion, it's about race, nationhood and ethnicity. You are stepping on so many toes when you call yourself a Jew, you actually have little idea what you do. We have Jews who have become Christians ( they aren't Messianic Jews they are Christian converts), Muslims, Buddhists etc and we have Jews who are atheists and agnostics but what we don't have is non Jews who think they are Jews. Are you likely to take our uniquely genetic medical conditions, the restrictions non Jews place on us, the anti Semitic violence and abuse as well when proclaiming yourself Jews?
Imagine a bunch of white men blacking up and going around calling themselves witch doctors, that's what you are doing to us. These so called 'Messianic Jews' hang around Jewish schools handing out leaflets, they invade our old peoples homes on the pretext of caring and try to convert. If you are Jewish, you’re a target. Millions of evangelical Christians in North America alone are passionately committed to converting us to their faith. They fund over 1,000 different missionary organizations to spearhead this effort. These include groups like Jews for Jesus and Chosen People Ministries, as well as hundreds of Messianic congregations reaching out to Jews of all stripes. Many of these organizations encourage and train ordinary Christians to share their faith with Jewish friends, neighbours, and business associates.

This isn't a case of which religion is right, this is a case of hated of a people and the need by these 'Messianic so called' Jews to destroy a people not just a religion.

Jews for Jesus has a slogan, “We exist to make the Messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people world-wide.” If this is the reason for their existence than they might as well close shop. Christendom’s centuries old policy of degradation and contempt of Jews and Judaism, based on New Testament models, beat them to it.

The repressive papal encyclicals, the tirades of Luther, the economic disabilities, the forced conversions, the expulsions, the enforced isolation of the ghettos, and the annihilation of Jewish communities made “the Messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people world-wide.”

Jesus was made an unavoidable issue for Jews with every unspeakable crime carried out in fulfillment of the “bloody commission” Jesus gave to his followers: “But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here, and slay them in my presence” (Luke 19:27).

A statement that says, “We exist to make the Messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people world-wide” can only come from those who show no recognition of the fact that hatred of the Jewish people is caused by what the New Testament says rather than by people’s misinterpretation of its contents. Some Christians even assert that a true Christian cannot hate the Jewish people and that there is not even the slightest anti-Jewish sentiment expressed in the New Testament. These assertions disregard all literary, theological, and historical data to the contrary. In fact, one does not have to leave it to personal, theological, or emotional considerations to decide if the New Testament teaches visceral hatred of the Jewish people. The decision as to whether or not the New Testament contains anti-Jewish teachings may be based solely on the information provided by the New Testament itself. This information shows that the New Testament anti-Judaism finally led to anti-Semitism.

How sad it is that somebody actually thinks that they have to make Jesus an unavoidable issue for Jews. What do they think has been going on throughout the centuries? Know the real Jesus? We Jews encountered him in Matthew 23:35, in Luke 19:27, and in John 8:44. The Jesus of the New Testament is an unavoidable remembrance of what hatred toward Jews and Judaism lurked in the hearts of the authors of that evil volume.

Courtesy of Gerald Sigal

You may think me closed minded even though I have demonstrated otherwise, I don't think my religion is the only correct one or that my beliefs are the right ones etc but by appropriating something that has no connection to you, that belongs to another race, another people while asserting that you are actually correct and can ignore what being Jewish actually means shows that I'm not the closed minded one. If you can't be proud of your religion and call it what it is then you really can't be that sure of it. Many Christians manage their lives well and are good people but they call themselves what they are, Christians. You cannot call yourself Jews when you aren't, anymore than I can call myself Japanese, for me to do so would be insulting, for me to do so and berate the Japanese for not living and believe as I do would be unforgivably hateful.

Having read your posts, I find you tick off several of the indicators here.

WHY THE JEWS?

A question that naturally comes to mind is: Why the Jews? Why are these fundamentalist Christians so consumed with bringing the Jewish people to "know Jesus?" Why has the largest Protestant denomination in the United States, the Southern Baptist Convention, passed numerous resolutions encouraging more than 15 million American members to target and evangelize the Jewish people?

There are several reasons.

Jesus said: "Go not into the way of the gentiles ... but only go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Firstly, the New Testament specifically prioritizes Jews for conversion. In the book of Matthew (10:5), when Jesus is instructing his apostles, he warns them, "Go not into the way of the gentiles ... but only go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." The Apostle Paul echoes the identical sentiment in the first chapter of the book of Romans when he declares, "Go to the Jew first, then to the Greek (i.e. gentile)." We find a recurrent and unique emphasis on reaching the Jews in the New Testament, especially in the Gospels, almost to the exclusion of the gentiles.


The rest can be read here:

Evangelizing the Jews | Outreach Judaism



The message from us though is 'Leave us the hell alone'.

 

[TSDTexan]

'Messianic so called Jews' are Christians, they aren't Jews. To be Jewish is a lot of things, it's not about religion, it's about race, nationhood and ethnicity. You are stepping on so many toes when you call yourself a Jew, you actually have little idea what you do. We have Jews who have become Christians ( they aren't Messianic Jews they are Christian converts), Muslims, Buddhists etc and we have Jews who are atheists and agnostics but what we don't have is non Jews who think they are Jews. Are you likely to take our uniquely genetic medical conditions, the restrictions non Jews place on us, the anti Semitic violence and abuse as well when proclaiming yourself Jews?
Imagine a bunch of white men blacking up and going around calling themselves witch doctors, that's what you are doing to us. These so called 'Messianic Jews' hang around Jewish schools handing out leaflets, they invade our old peoples homes on the pretext of caring and try to convert. If you are Jewish, you’re a target. Millions of evangelical Christians in North America alone are passionately committed to converting us to their faith. They fund over 1,000 different missionary organizations to spearhead this effort. These include groups like Jews for Jesus and Chosen People Ministries, as well as hundreds of Messianic congregations reaching out to Jews of all stripes. Many of these organizations encourage and train ordinary Christians to share their faith with Jewish friends, neighbours, and business associates.

This isn't a case of which religion is right, this is a case of hated of a people and the need by these 'Messianic so called' Jews to destroy a people not just a religion.

Jews for Jesus has a slogan, “We exist to make the Messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people world-wide.” If this is the reason for their existence than they might as well close shop. Christendom’s centuries old policy of degradation and contempt of Jews and Judaism, based on New Testament models, beat them to it.

The repressive papal encyclicals, the tirades of Luther, the economic disabilities, the forced conversions, the expulsions, the enforced isolation of the ghettos, and the annihilation of Jewish communities made “the Messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people world-wide.”

Jesus was made an unavoidable issue for Jews with every unspeakable crime carried out in fulfillment of the “bloody commission” Jesus gave to his followers: “But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here, and slay them in my presence” (Luke 19:27).

A statement that says, “We exist to make the Messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people world-wide” can only come from those who show no recognition of the fact that hatred of the Jewish people is caused by what the New Testament says rather than by people’s misinterpretation of its contents. Some Christians even assert that a true Christian cannot hate the Jewish people and that there is not even the slightest anti-Jewish sentiment expressed in the New Testament. These assertions disregard all literary, theological, and historical data to the contrary. In fact, one does not have to leave it to personal, theological, or emotional considerations to decide if the New Testament teaches visceral hatred of the Jewish people. The decision as to whether or not the New Testament contains anti-Jewish teachings may be based solely on the information provided by the New Testament itself. This information shows that the New Testament anti-Judaism finally led to anti-Semitism.

How sad it is that somebody actually thinks that they have to make Jesus an unavoidable issue for Jews. What do they think has been going on throughout the centuries? Know the real Jesus? We Jews encountered him in Matthew 23:35, in Luke 19:27, and in John 8:44. The Jesus of the New Testament is an unavoidable remembrance of what hatred toward Jews and Judaism lurked in the hearts of the authors of that evil volume.

Courtesy of Gerald Sigal

You may think me closed minded even though I have demonstrated otherwise, I don't think my religion is the only correct one or that my beliefs are the right ones etc but by appropriating something that has no connection to you, that belongs to another race, another people while asserting that you are actually correct and can ignore what being Jewish actually means shows that I'm not the closed minded one. If you can't be proud of your religion and call it what it is then you really can't be that sure of it. Many Christians manage their lives well and are good people but they call themselves what they are, Christians. You cannot call yourself Jews when you aren't, anymore than I can call myself Japanese, for me to do so would be insulting, for me to do so and berate the Japanese for not living and believe as I do would be unforgivably hateful.

Having read your posts, I find you tick off several of the indicators here.

WHY THE JEWS?

A question that naturally comes to mind is: Why the Jews? Why are these fundamentalist Christians so consumed with bringing the Jewish people to "know Jesus?" Why has the largest Protestant denomination in the United States, the Southern Baptist Convention, passed numerous resolutions encouraging more than 15 million American members to target and evangelize the Jewish people?

There are several reasons.

Jesus said: "Go not into the way of the gentiles ... but only go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Firstly, the New Testament specifically prioritizes Jews for conversion. In the book of Matthew (10:5), when Jesus is instructing his apostles, he warns them, "Go not into the way of the gentiles ... but only go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." The Apostle Paul echoes the identical sentiment in the first chapter of the book of Romans when he declares, "Go to the Jew first, then to the Greek (i.e. gentile)." We find a recurrent and unique emphasis on reaching the Jews in the New Testament, especially in the Gospels, almost to the exclusion of the gentiles.

A second reason for this obsession relates to the Church's fascination with eschatology, the study of the End of Times. Fundamentalist Christians are consumed by the prophecies surrounding the end of days. They want to know when the Messiah will come/return. How will this take place? To which nations did the prophet Ezekiel refer when he described how apocalyptic nations would wage war against Jerusalem before the final hour leading to the messianic age (Ezekiel 38-39)? Christian bookstores typically set aside an entire section dedicated to eschatological inquiry.

How does all this apocalyptic speculation and discussion relate to our subject?

At the end of the book of Matthew (23:39), Jesus is quoted making a very important statement. He says, "I will not return until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'" Because Jesus was speaking to a Jewish audience at the time he made this statement, Christians have always understood this statement to have one meaning: Jesus will not make his second coming until the Jews are converted.

The Jews, therefore, are holding up the show.

Fundamentalist Christians also believe that Jesus is going to make his second coming in or about the year 2000 (counting from Jesus' birth); therefore, the Jews must be converted by then, en masse, in order to enable Jesus to return.

(Bear in mind that there remains considerable controversy among Christians as to the year of Jesus' birth. Many Christians -- largely based on Luke's narrative -- place the 2,000th year from Jesus' birth in the year 2007). Shame they missed their target.

Finally, the most significant reason for the church's preoccupation with the Jews stems from the credibility problem that the faith of a Jew presents to Christendom.

THE MESSIAH IS A COMPLEX FIGURE

Jesus was a Jew and Christians claim that he is the promised Messiah about whom the prophets spoke. The idea of the Messiah -- who will come at the end of days to usher in a utopian society of love, peace, and the universal knowledge of God -- is exclusively Jewish. Fundamentalist Christians insist that if the Jews would only look in their own Hebrew scriptures they would find Jesus literally bouncing off every page. It, therefore, stands to reason that the Jews should have been the first to embrace Jesus and his teachings, if in fact Jesus was the prophesied Messiah. Yet, the Jews were the very people who did not accept Jesus.

Jews should have been the first to embrace Jesus, if in fact Jesus was the prophesied Messiah.
This has always been a troubling reality to the Christian Church since its inception. It is for this reason that only the conversion of a Jew to Christianity can lend credibility to the church -- never the conversion of the gentile.

Peering back into world history, it would probably be quite difficult to imagine another program that has been a more miserable failure than the church's persistent effort to convert the Jews to Christianity.

Bear in mind that Christianity swept through Europe almost overnight. The same is true for Latin America. Yet the Jews, with all their problems of persecution and forced exile, still would not convert.

With the approach of the end of the second millennium, evangelicals were faced with a serious dilemma: How were they to finally bring the Jewish people to accept Jesus?

This quandary was no small theological challenge to the church. With the year 2000 in sight, two critical conferences were convened a little more than a quarter of a century ago. The first was held in Switzerland and the other in Thailand. The main questions that were asked at those two symposiums was: Why has the Church been so unsuccessful in their past efforts to convert the Jews, and what new techniques can be employed to attract masses of new Jewish converts to the church by the turn of the century?

It was at these two unlikely locations that devout evangelists placed the Jewish people under a microscope. Indeed, it was at these symposiums that those Christians understood that the church had a number of serious challenges with respect to converting the Jews.

PUBLIC RELATIONS PROBLEM

The first problem they discovered was that the church had a significant public relations problem. They concluded that Jewish people historically tend to equate Christianity with persecution. Jewish people often feel somewhat uncomfortable just hearing the words "Jesus Christ," and when they see a cross or a church icon, it rarely conjures up warm, affectionate feelings. On the contrary, whereas Christians tend to feel quite comfortable in synagogues, or observing Jewish ceremonies, Jewish people tend to feel alienated by churches and their icons.

Taking this public relations problem head on, these evangelists initiated a unique approach. It goes something like this, "You're Jewish? We Christians just love the Jewish people! Persecution? Oh, no! Any Christian who persecuted a Jew in the name of Jesus couldn't be a real Christian. A real Christian only loves the Jewish people!"

This novel technique enables Christians to freely evangelize Jews by distancing themselves from their Christian forbears. In this way, potential Jewish converts will not feel alienated by Christendom.

Jews would not simply start converting to Christianity because evangelicals condemned anti-Semitism.
These evangelists realized, however, that simply smothering us with love could not in itself be totally effective. Jews would not simply start converting to Christianity en masse because evangelicals loudly condemned anti-Semitism. They understood that the essential reason why Jews do not convert is because they do not want to stop being Jewish, and Jews view Christianity as antithetical to Judaism.

With this realization, these highly motivated missionaries developed an entirely new and remarkably simple approach to Jewish evangelism. It goes like this, "When you're becoming a believer in Jesus, you are not converting to another religion. On the contrary, you're becoming a 'fulfilled Jew' or a 'completed Jew.' After all, Jesus was a Jew and his followers were Jewish; therefore, believing in Jesus must be the most Jewish thing you can do."

Messianic "synagogues" do not observe Christian holidays. You will never find a Christmas tree or blinking colored lights around December in a Messianic congregation. Instead, these missionaries celebrate Jewish holidays with a "Christological" spin. Throughout the world, Messianic congregations hold elaborate and well-publicized Passover Seders.

A MESSIANIC "SEDER"

At first glance, a Messianic Seder table appears quite traditional, with all of the customary essentials: Seder plate, matzah, and wine. Once the ceremony begins to unfold, however, even the most uninitiated will immediately realize that something is askew. Participants are told that the wine at the Seder table represents the blood of Yeshua/Jesus, and the matzah represents his body. Do you know the real reason why Jews have three matzoth at the Seder table? To represent the Holy Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Do you know why the matzahs are perforated? Because Jesus was pierced through when he was crucified. Why does the matzah have stripes? Because Jesus had stripes across his back as a result of the beating he endured during his trial. Why is the middle matzah broken? Because Jesus was brutally broken on the cross. Why is the matzah wrapped in a white towel? Because Jesus was wrapped in a white burial shroud. Why is this middle matzah hidden? Because Jesus was hidden away in the tomb following his crucifixion. Why is the matzah brought back at the end of the meal? Because Jesus will return in the Second Coming at the End of Days.

Messianic congregations will never be listed in the Yellow Pages under churches. They are always listed with the synagogues. Additionally, the Messianic movement has created a remarkable tool for Jewish evangelism called a "communications card." This card carefully guides evangelicals on how to talk to a Jew in a manner that will not alienate them as potential converts. A two-column card which is usually wallet-sized for easy transport and access reads:

• Don't say Jesus Christ; Do say Messiah Yeshua,
• Don't say convert; do say Messianic, completed, fulfilled Jew.
• Don't say Christian; do say Bible believer, etc.

In essence, the Messianic movement's fundamental approach seeks to blur the distinctions between Judaism and Christianity in order to lure Jews who would otherwise resist a straightforward Christian message.


The message from us though is 'Leave us the hell alone'.

Your still here? I thought you left?

This thread was for dialogue. About Christ (a Greek word for Messiah), about martial arts, and anything between.

I never asked you to accept Messiah. I never asked you to convert.

I objected to your assertion that messianic Judaism doesn't exist.

History says otherwise, for seven centuries there were Jewish communities that recognized Yeshua as the Promised Messiah. They did not assimilate into gentile communities and forsake their distinctively Jewish lives. Their culture, their ethnicity, their customs, their traditions, and their bloodlines remained Jewish.

On an individual level, Messiah has revealed Him to many individuals. They remained exactly who they were were.

Now, I don't care who or what you are or call yourself. But my grandmother and grandfather fled Germany, where their families were sent to the camps.

They were Jewish then, just as we are now.
My mother was Jewish, as was hers.

But you don't get to determine who I am.
You don't have the authority to say I am not by hereditary Jewish.

There are over 300 messianic Jewish congregations in this country.

We exist. Deal with it. Or don't.
I care not.

 

[Steve]

This thread is way too personal, and no good will come if it.

 

[Flying Crane]

This thread is way too personal, and no good will come if it.

Probably true.

My involvement with this thread is not with the intent to attack anyone's religious beliefs. However, I am trying to express some boundaries where I feel religious thought is appropriate, and where it is not appropriate.

My feathers get ruffled if someone tries to convert others, and at the expression of ones soul being in mortal danger for following the wrong religion, or no religion at all. I do find that offensive and I will argue against it.

I also hold strongly that religion has a place in education within religious studies, but not science. Creationism, or Intelligent Design, for example, is not science and has no place within science courses.

Those are really my issues.

 

[Steve]

Yeah, if this were a thread to explain more about a religion, that's interesting, However, this frankly feels like talking to the guys with a life sized cross outside the movie theater handing out flyers. It's weirdly out of context. I think I'll leave this thread to you guys.

 

[Tez3]

I objected to your assertion that messianic Judaism doesn't exist.

And? I object to you calling yourself a Messianic Jew, it's an insult to Jews. You aren't, you are a Christian, you may be a Jew as well but not a 'Messianic' one which is a deliberately misleading word designed for the purposes I outlined before. If you are a Christian stand up and say so, if you are a Jew stand up and say so but don't bloody hide behind a nonsense designed only to gull people into thinking you are something you aren't. How you worship, who you worship and why you worship are of no interest to me, they are your personal beliefs but I have huge problems with organisations that are primarily concerned with conversions. That you can't see that and why you can't see it concerns me.

George W Bush's new 'crusade': converting Jews to Christianity | Andrew Brown
"Such "Messianic Jews" – who accept that Jesus was the promised Messiah – are loathed by most other Jews, and regarded with great suspicion by mainstream Christian denominations. If Jesus really was the promised Messiah, this would restore much of the traditional basis for Christian anti-semitism, which most Christians have struggled against for the last 50 years.

But a belief in the necessary conversion of the Jews still flourishes on the wilder shores of American Christianity. "

Messianic Judaism

"Because of Messianic Judaism’s identification with Jesus, all of the major denominations of Judaism (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist) have rejected Messianic Judaism as a form of Judaism. Within Christianity Messianic Judaism is sometimes seen as a group within the evangelical community, and sometimes seen as a separate sect. At times, various Christian leaders have publicly criticized Messianic Jews for their aggressive missionizing in the Jewish community and for misrepresenting themselves as Jews.
A core component of Messianic Judaism is witnessing and missionizing to other Jews. According to the evangelical theology accepted by Messianic Jews, those who are not saved are destined for eternal damnation. Helping to bring someone to Yeshua and thus to salvation is a responsibility of all Messianic Jews, and many embrace that role, particularly when it comes to Jewish members of their family. This is often at the root of the animosity between Messianic and mainstream Jewish communities.
When Messianic Jews try to do outreach within the mainstream Jewish community they are often met with resistance and outrage. Among other things, the Jewish community objects to the title Messianic Judaism, because the messianism practiced by Messianic Jews is Jesus-focused, and thus by definition not Jewish. The use of the term Messianic Judaism strikes many as a subversive way of attracting Jews who do not know enough about their faith to realize that what they are learning about is Christianity."

And this, Messianic Jews besieged in southern Israel


Thankfully there are enough decent people in the world who understand that dialogue is the way forward. Live and let live is such a good way to conduct yourself. The good Christians of Germany realise this.
German Evangelicals Renounce Centuries-Old Mission to Convert Jews

"The central decision-making body for Germany’s main Protestant church, encompassing 23 million members, passed the resolution declaring that Christians “are not called to show Israel the path to God and his salvation” on November 9 in Magdeburg, Religion News reported.

“All efforts to convert Jews contradict our commitment to the faithfulness of God and the election of Israel,” read the resolution.

It explained that since God never renounced His covenant with Israel, Jews do not need to embrace the Christian covenant to be saved.

The abandoning of the EKD’s “Judenmission” – Mission to the Jews – began after the Holocaust, but the church had never adopted an official position. Now, as Lutherans worldwide gear up to celebrate 500 years since Martin Luther’s Protestant Reformation began in 1517 with the 95 Theses, the movement is eager to distance itself from its founder’s anti-Semitic views."

 

[Hyoho]

Looks like the post has been opened up by the OP just to spam religious quotes.

As far as Japanese Martial Arts (Budo) goes it certainly does not need Christianity. It has its own educational/philosophical precepts.

I will let those the do Chinese arts answer for themselves.

 

[Steve]

Looks like the post has been opened up by the OP just to spam religious quotes.

As far as Japanese Martial Arts (Budo) goes it certainly does not need Christianity. It has its own educational/philosophical precepts.

I will let those the do Chinese arts answer for themselves.

There is room, I think, for a style that originated in Japan to evolve in another country into something no longer Japanese. For example, we can see the Japanese roots of Brazilian jiu jitsu, but I don't think it's a Japanese art any more, perhaps Christian karate is another example.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, if this were a thread to explain more about a religion, that's interesting, However, this frankly feels like talking to the guys with a life sized cross outside the movie theater handing out flyers. It's weirdly out of context. I think I'll leave this thread to you guys.

It is a thread on how people think. Which i always find fascinating.

Especially when they don't think the same as me.

 

[drop bear]

Looks like the post has been opened up by the OP just to spam religious quotes.

As far as Japanese Martial Arts (Budo) goes it certainly does not need Christianity. It has its own educational/philosophical precepts.

I will let those the do Chinese arts answer for themselves.

Yeah but Christianity needs to Christianise these activities if they want to participate.

Like a vegan at a barbecue.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah but Christianity needs to Christianise these activities if they want to participate.

Like a vegan at a barbecue.

Do they need to Christianize them (most Christians don't seem to think so), or just not participate in a way that violates their personal ethos (like a vegan at a barbecue)?

Mind you, I don't see an issue with them Christianizing these activities, if that best fits their needs. It doesn't appeal to me, but I'm not their audience.

 

[drop bear]

Do they need to Christianize them (most Christians don't seem to think so), or just not participate in a way that violates their personal ethos (like a vegan at a barbecue)?

Mind you, I don't see an issue with them Christianizing these activities, if that best fits their needs. It doesn't appeal to me, but I'm not their audience.

Stryper.

Showing my age here.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Stryper.

Showing my age here.

And I showed mine because I had to listen - haven't heard that in ages.

 

[drop bear]

And I showed mine because I had to listen - haven't heard that in ages.

And I am pretty confident you name a thing. I can find someone who has a christionized version.

Someone is enough into this idea to support the market.

 

[Tez3]

Looks like the post has been opened up by the OP just to spam religious quotes

I think you are partly right but the main reason I think is the need by the OP to bring more people to his particular beliefs. His group is evangelical meaning that's what they do. They won't be happy until we all and I mean all, believe as they do. I'm sure they mean well but I believe a stealth approach will not end well. If you live a good life, you are a good person who cares for others it will be noticed and people will want to emulate you, you don't need to preach at people, you don't need to insist that you and only you are right, that all unbelievers are going to hell to burn forever. In the case of the so called Messianic Jews, I believe they should have the courage of their convictions and stand up as Christians, and be proud of that. I'm all for chatting about our various beliefs, I've had some very nice exchanges on here without rancour or sermonising BUT

 

[granfire]

Your opinion is respected.
However, it is my experience that God of the bible is in fact real.

The way the bible records it. Lucifer was created perfect, but using his own freewill chose the path of rebellion.

He is responsible for deviating from the role and purpose God created for him.

The bible record shows that after the Final Judgment, Satan as he is called these days will be thrown into the lake of fire, for all eternity.

Jesus makes the claim that He was there when Satan was cast out of Heaven, and the presence of God. He claims that Satan fell to the earth like a bolt of lightning.

You claim that "Satan could never act in opposition to an omnipotent god. It would not be possible."


An omnipotent being doesn't have to act instantly, at all times, to be omnipotent.

Allowing Satan a period of time to act against Him doesn't make Him impotent.

Nor does it make Him the author of evil, or a participant/co-conspiracy boss.

Allowing, for a limited time a voice of opposition, serves a greater purpose. Men will have to act in faith towards a quieter voice.

Eventually, God will act at the time He has already decided. And He will bring all rebels to heel.

To choose to join in rebellion to God is the call of Satan.

To submit, like Christ did, is the whisper of the almighty.

well, if God is almighty, I don't have to fear Satan.
If I have to fear Satan, God isn't almighty.....

So in essence, god having created evil, Satan isn't but another face of him...

regardless, finding myself reverting to the Good God of my childhood, I generally do not prescribe to organized religion. There is too much tail chasing involved, trying to explain 'God', or why one has to worship this particular way, and go to hell any other way.

And last: we are but a spec of dust, sitting on a slightly bigger speck of dust, careening though the vastness of space.
And you try to explain that religion is all this?!

Not to mention that the bible has been rewritten many times, and the most fervent thumpers have no idea what it really means, as non ever learned a 2nd language, let alone ancient Greek and Hebrew, to read the source material without the translator's interpretation....

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well, if God is almighty, I don't have to fear Satan.
If I have to fear Satan, God isn't almighty.....

So in essence, god having created evil, Satan isn't but another face of him...

regardless, finding myself reverting to the Good God of my childhood, I generally do not prescribe to organized religion. There is too much tail chasing involved, trying to explain 'God', or why one has to worship this particular way, and go to hell any other way.

And last: we are but a spec of dust, sitting on a slightly bigger speck of dust, careening though the vastness of space.
And you try to explain that religion is all this?!

Not to mention that the bible has been rewritten many times, and the most fervent thumpers have no idea what it really means, as non ever learned a 2nd language, let alone ancient Greek and Hebrew, to read the source material without the translator's interpretation....

I actually enjoy discussing religion with people, so long as they make cogent arguments. My biggest headache is when a Christian gets hung up on a specific word used in their Bible. I've had some say, "right there, it says 'shall', and there's a reason that word was used." Those folks seem ignorant of the fact that the word "shall" never appears in the original text, since it's an English word.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Thread locked pending staff review.

 

[Grenadier]

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