What are the pros and cons of folding vs sheath knives? Which is better for self defense? Are there situations where one is better then the other?
upnorthkyosa
upnorthkyosa
Folder vs Sheath Knive - tactical questions pros and cons
- Thread starter Makalakumu
- Start date
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Hmm...lets see if I can cover this one briefly...
Pro's of fixed blade over folders:
1. Stronger, more durable, don't have to worry about failure as much.
2. Can be longer/bigger for tasks that require a bigger tool.
3. Can be more versitile in terms of use.
4. All around better for fighting application.
Pro's of folder over fixed blade:
1. Usually smaller, more compact, easier to conceal.
2. Easier to carry, especially if your Leo with a lot on your gun belt, or a civilian.
3. More legally prudent for civilian carry; usually you can get a good folder under the legal limit for concealed carrying, and folders are easier to justify for carrying.
So, in a nutshell, as a tool I would say fixed blades are more useful, and better for "fighting." In fantasy land, if I were to have to go to a duel, I would carry my 16 inch bagwell bowie rather then my folding Spyderco Persian.
However, for civilian carry, you will go to jail for a long time if your carrying a "fighting knife" and actually use it "for fighting." In fact, knives are not good to carry specifically for self-defense. In most cases, if a cop asks what your knife is for and you answer, "self-defense," the cop can take away your knife because you have demonstrated intent to use it to hurt someone. It doesn't matter if the blade is only 1" long if you demonstrate intent.
I find this humorous: when I teach my "every day carry" civilian knife seminar, the first thing I cover is not carrying a knife for self-defense, and how pepper spray or a gun with a CPL is a much better first choice.
So, why carry a knife? You carry a knife because it is a useful tool. I carry my Spyderco Persian about every day because it comes in handy for everything from wilderness hikes and survival stuff to opening my mail and packages every day. I use my knife for some task daily.
So, if a cop asks what my knife is for, I can tell him the truth. I carry mine for utility, and it fits the legal requirements for length and such. I do not carry my knife for the sole purpose of self-defense. Now, if in a pinch and if all non-lethal options are exhausted or unavailable and lethal force is required, I can use my knife to defend myself. This is what your "knife training" is for. Yet, especially with this training, one should never carry a knife for the purpose of using it for self-defense. This will demonstrate intent and preemption if you ever have to actually defend yourself with a knife, and you will likely get nailed in court and go to jail for defending yourself.
Among a few other reasons, a folder is much more easily justifiable for utility use then most fixed blades, so generally speaking, that is what a civilian should carry.
Paul
**disclaimer: obviously I am speaking very generally here; mileage will vary depending on the actual type of fixed or folding blade that one is carrying, and circumstances will vary as well.
Pro's of fixed blade over folders:
1. Stronger, more durable, don't have to worry about failure as much.
2. Can be longer/bigger for tasks that require a bigger tool.
3. Can be more versitile in terms of use.
4. All around better for fighting application.
Pro's of folder over fixed blade:
1. Usually smaller, more compact, easier to conceal.
2. Easier to carry, especially if your Leo with a lot on your gun belt, or a civilian.
3. More legally prudent for civilian carry; usually you can get a good folder under the legal limit for concealed carrying, and folders are easier to justify for carrying.
So, in a nutshell, as a tool I would say fixed blades are more useful, and better for "fighting." In fantasy land, if I were to have to go to a duel, I would carry my 16 inch bagwell bowie rather then my folding Spyderco Persian.
However, for civilian carry, you will go to jail for a long time if your carrying a "fighting knife" and actually use it "for fighting." In fact, knives are not good to carry specifically for self-defense. In most cases, if a cop asks what your knife is for and you answer, "self-defense," the cop can take away your knife because you have demonstrated intent to use it to hurt someone. It doesn't matter if the blade is only 1" long if you demonstrate intent.
I find this humorous: when I teach my "every day carry" civilian knife seminar, the first thing I cover is not carrying a knife for self-defense, and how pepper spray or a gun with a CPL is a much better first choice.
So, why carry a knife? You carry a knife because it is a useful tool. I carry my Spyderco Persian about every day because it comes in handy for everything from wilderness hikes and survival stuff to opening my mail and packages every day. I use my knife for some task daily.
So, if a cop asks what my knife is for, I can tell him the truth. I carry mine for utility, and it fits the legal requirements for length and such. I do not carry my knife for the sole purpose of self-defense. Now, if in a pinch and if all non-lethal options are exhausted or unavailable and lethal force is required, I can use my knife to defend myself. This is what your "knife training" is for. Yet, especially with this training, one should never carry a knife for the purpose of using it for self-defense. This will demonstrate intent and preemption if you ever have to actually defend yourself with a knife, and you will likely get nailed in court and go to jail for defending yourself.
Among a few other reasons, a folder is much more easily justifiable for utility use then most fixed blades, so generally speaking, that is what a civilian should carry.
Paul
**disclaimer: obviously I am speaking very generally here; mileage will vary depending on the actual type of fixed or folding blade that one is carrying, and circumstances will vary as well.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #3
Paul - good point about regular use and intent.
I wonder if a sheath knife that is under the legal limit would get one into trouble? Or is the "image" of a folder more benign and somehow less threatening?
As a martial tool, I feel like a sheath knife is by far superior. One has a better grip, a guard, and a full tang blade that isn't going to snap when making contact with bone.
I've feild dressed my share of deer up here in the northland and I don't think that I would attempt to tackle that job with my folder. The cutting power and leverage one gets with a sheath knife is substantially more.
Has anyone experimented with cutting tests? Has anyone had their folder break when put to that test? I feel that the weakest part on any folder is the pivot point. If the knife is going to fail, it will probably be on the bolt.
I wonder if a sheath knife that is under the legal limit would get one into trouble? Or is the "image" of a folder more benign and somehow less threatening?
As a martial tool, I feel like a sheath knife is by far superior. One has a better grip, a guard, and a full tang blade that isn't going to snap when making contact with bone.
I've feild dressed my share of deer up here in the northland and I don't think that I would attempt to tackle that job with my folder. The cutting power and leverage one gets with a sheath knife is substantially more.
Has anyone experimented with cutting tests? Has anyone had their folder break when put to that test? I feel that the weakest part on any folder is the pivot point. If the knife is going to fail, it will probably be on the bolt.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
upnorthkyosa said:
That depends on a lot of factors, such as your states laws. Regardless of what your state laws are, you need to be able to justify why your carrying it.
In Michigan I can carry a large sheath knife over any legal concealment limit for hunting and outdoorsmen use. However, the burden of proof is on me to actually prove that I had it one me to use it for that purpose. If I go out to the bar, gut someone with my bowie, and say "Hey, I had the bowie on me for hunting," that won't work.
A bit of a tangent, but this is important to understand. In a most of states you have two basic legal ideas that seem to work with each other. There are laws that regulate what you can carry concealed, and there are laws that regulate what you can carry not concealed. For example, I can't legally conceal a shotgun under my trench coat in Michigan. I can't walk around wal-mart with it slung over my shoulder in Michigan or most states either. These rules apply to carrying sheath knives. If your over the legal concealment limit sheath knife is out in the open without legal justification it is considered "threat" as I have heard it called here in Michigan (other states may call it something else), and you can have it taken away with legal reprocussions. If you have that same knife concealed, your now carrying a concealed weapon and can have it taken away with legal reprocussions.
The thing with the law is that knife legislation is very unclear. It is sort of a hodgepoge of state laws, case laws, county laws, etc.. It is not as clear as firearm laws. Example, Michigan law states that I am not allowed to carry a concealed knife over 3 1/2 inches. However, I could get stopped passing through a county or city that doesn't allow knives over 2 inches, and have mine taken away. I could be driving by a public school zone, and could have anything that resembles a weapon taken away. It just isn't clear what our rights actually are when it comes to this.
So, the most important thing is WHY are you carrying it. If you can legally justify why your carrying your knife (which does not include the "I carry for self-defense" claim), then that is what is important. Generally with the lack of clarity of the laws regarding carrying knives, this is what it ends up boiling down to. This is important if you are justifying to a cop why you have your knife. Basically a cop can take away your knife for any reason whether you object to the idea or not. Generally they will not bother if they trust that you aren't going to use it to cause trouble. This issue is even more important, though, if you have to use the knife for self-defense. If you can't prove exactly why you were carrying your knife, then good luck convincing the cops who write your report or the judge/jury that you weren't carrying your knife to hurt someone.
So, you can carry any knife really, but you have to be able to reasonsably justify why within the laws of your state. You can carry a fixed blade under the legal limit, if you can justify why your carrying it. I personally find that it is less convienent to carry a fixed blade concealed though, but on occasion I do carry one. I have a neck knife that I wear with business attire and formal wear that rests behind my tie that I can pull through my center buttons.
So this all depends. If one can legally justify carrying the fixed blade, then yes, this is an open option.
Generally speaking, I agree. But what makes the fixed blade a superior fighter is pretty much the fact that fixed blades can run larger then folders. A larger blade gives you better reach. A 10 inch blade against a 3 inch blade is a difficult match-up for the man with the smaller tool. But other then that, a good folder should feel no different then a fixed blade of the same size/shape.
Definatily don't discount the versitility of a good folder. With a good folder (lets say within the $100 range, give or take 30 bucks) with a reputable company, you shouldn't have to worry about it failing. It would take more stress then any one person could exert to make the good ones fail. Plus, they make a wide variety of folders that fit the hand well, and can sometimes fit even better then a similar fixed blades. I would put the Spyderco Persian or Chinook II (to give an example) up against any fixed blade of the same size. A folder should feel like a fixed blade of the same size in the hand, and should perform as well, in my opinion.
Also, one has to consider concealment as a factor when carrying a knife. A fixed blade in a nice Kydex sheath can be pulled faster then a folder. However, if the fixed blade in that nice kydex sheath is concealed under a shirt or coat pocket and one has to fumble to get there, I will pull my folder that rests at my hip pocket much faster.
Generally, it should only take you about a second or less to deploy your knife. With practice this can be done with a folder.
Absolutely. I will say that with the cheapy folders with weaker locks, you can definatily feel the difference, and there is danger of failure.
But in a good folder, you do not feel "weaknesses" in the lock. I have done cutting drills with my Persian on big slabs of pork ribs. On a stab I could split the ribs and go right through. On a hack I could break any of the ribs that I contacted. It was a folder, but it was strong enough to do the work of a fixed blade.
So, I say carry what is most useful to you, and what you can deploy quickly, if you can legally justify it. But don't discount the use of a good folder. It all really depends on the person, the situation, the training, and the type of folder or fixed blade to determine what is best. it isn't a simple case of "fixed blades = better" 100% of the time.
Paul Janulis
Rick Wade
Master Black Belt
Just in every day work I carry a flding knife that I could use as a tactical knife if I needed to.
Howevery I am getting ready to go to Iraq in about a week and this is the Knife I will carry over there: URL=http://www.greenfieldforge.com/knife01.html]Pick Tactical Knife[/URL]
It is a double edged knife with a cresent moon for trapping.
V/R
Rick
Howevery I am getting ready to go to Iraq in about a week and this is the Knife I will carry over there: URL=http://www.greenfieldforge.com/knife01.html]Pick Tactical Knife[/URL]
It is a double edged knife with a cresent moon for trapping.
V/R
Rick
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Rick,
That looks like a very good all around useful knife for the field that will double as a good self-defense choice if in a pinch. Nice pick.
If you don't mind me asking, what brach of the military, and what will you be doing over there (without disclosing to much of course)?
Good luck and be safe,
Paul
Link to knife: http://www.greenfieldforge.com/knife01.html
That looks like a very good all around useful knife for the field that will double as a good self-defense choice if in a pinch. Nice pick.
If you don't mind me asking, what brach of the military, and what will you be doing over there (without disclosing to much of course)?
Good luck and be safe,
Paul
Link to knife: http://www.greenfieldforge.com/knife01.html
OP
- Thread Starter
- #7
Nice knife, Rick. Good luck in the sand. Keep it sharp!
T
TonyM.
Guest
Stay awake ,keep low, don't smoke.
I missed and hit a door with a folding buck hunter in a real fight. Needless to say, finishing the fight with my palm and thumb laid open was a real labor of love. Will I ever use one again as a defence weapon? Not a chance.
I missed and hit a door with a folding buck hunter in a real fight. Needless to say, finishing the fight with my palm and thumb laid open was a real labor of love. Will I ever use one again as a defence weapon? Not a chance.
