Fixing Deficits...

[Bill Mattocks]

As long as we're talking about reducing the deficit, and everything is on the chopping block, here's an easy one; stop giving hundreds of billions of dollars to military contractors that defraud the government.

Strangely, I hear lots of noise about welfare fraud and medicare fraud and illegal aliens costing us huge sums in medical expenses...but here's some low-hanging fruit and nobody wants to talk about it. It shows up in a military.com news website and where else? Big headline news? Nah, that doesn't matter. We have to go after 'big pharma' and 'illegal aliens using taxpayer services'. How about going after something that we can actually DO something about? Nope, not interested.

Sigh...

http://www.military.com/news/articl...s-that-defrauded-dod.html?ESRC=topstories.RSS

February 03, 2011
Associated Press

WASHINGTON -- Hundreds of defense companies that defrauded the U.S. military between 2007 and 2009 still received $285 billion in contracts from the Pentagon during the same period, a U.S. senator said Wednesday.

 

[Empty Hands]

Harry Truman made a name for himself eliminating military and military contractor waste and mismanagement during the War. The nation loved him for it. If he was alive today and tried the same thing, he would be tarred as a "traitor" and run out of office on a rail.

Recent budget proposals intended to reduce the deficit (i.e. Rand Paul's proposal, etc.) take medicare, social security, and defense off the table before anything else is talked about. That's about 3/4 of the annual budget right there! That might make political sense, but it certainly doesn't make fiscal sense. You can't fix a multi-trillion dollar debt and deficit by slashing the budget of NPR, the NEA and the NIH, hated by conservatives as they might be.

If you refuse to talk about the military, then you aren't fiscally serious. You're just trying to score political points.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Harry Truman made a name for himself eliminating military and military contractor waste and mismanagement during the War. The nation loved him for it. If he was alive today and tried the same thing, he would be tarred as a "traitor" and run out of office on a rail.

Recent budget proposals intended to reduce the deficit (i.e. Rand Paul's proposal, etc.) take medicare, social security, and defense off the table before anything else is talked about. That's about 3/4 of the annual budget right there! That might make political sense, but it certainly doesn't make fiscal sense. You can't fix a multi-trillion dollar debt and deficit by slashing the budget of NPR, the NEA and the NIH, hated by conservatives as they might be.

If you refuse to talk about the military, then you aren't fiscally serious. You're just trying to score political points.

I agree about the waste and mismanagement and in this case, outright fraud. I do not want to hamstring the military; but often they get things they didn't even ask for or want because some Congressperson's home district manufactures thus-and-so and the elected official wants to 'bring home the bacon'. It's sickening.

 

[Sukerkin]

It seems to be the nature of the beast that military development and procurement budgets inflate and escape all bounds. The fraud and waste that goes on is legendary, even in our comparatively small miltary.

An example of the waste is the four billion Pounds worth of new, never flown, Nimrod maritime patrol aircraft that was smashed into scrap - because it hit the public eye, it was rationalised away with arguments that made a great deal of sense ... but why make them in the first place then?

 

[granfire]

It would probably come as a complete shock as to what could be trimmed off the budget by stupid things like conserving pencils and paper. Or not having frivolous work hours billed...

 

[Big Don]

It seems to be the nature of the beast that military development and procurement budgets inflate and escape all bounds. The fraud and waste that goes on is legendary, even in our comparatively small miltary.

An example of the waste is the four billion Pounds worth of new, never flown, Nimrod maritime patrol aircraft that was smashed into scrap - because it hit the public eye, it was rationalised away with arguments that made a great deal of sense ... but why make them in the first place then?

While I agree, of course that any graft is a bad thing, I'm more forgiving of graft in military procurement than in welfare programs for the simple reason, that military procurement actually produces results.

Why did your military name the maritime patrol aircraft after their in-laws?

 

[Tez3]

While I agree, of course that any graft is a bad thing, I'm more forgiving of graft in military procurement than in welfare programs for the simple reason, that military procurement actually produces results.

Why did your military name the maritime patrol aircraft after their in-laws?

??

It's named after Nimrod the 'Mighty Hunter' chappie? it was used to hunt subs, common or garden enemies, lost sailors etc etc.

 

[Big Don]

??

It's named after Nimrod the 'Mighty Hunter' chappie? it was used to hunt subs, common or garden enemies, lost sailors etc etc.

I was going by this definition:

nimrod definition

[ˈnɪmrɑd]

1. n.
   a simpleton; a nerd. : What stupid nimrod left the lid off the cottage cheese?

 

[Tez3]

I was going by this definition:

nimrod definition

[ˈnɪmrɑd]

1. n.
   a simpleton; a nerd. : What stupid nimrod left the lid off the cottage cheese?

Never heard that one here so sorry it'll be lost on us. Can't connect Nimrod with nerd though, that's odd.

 

[Makalakumu]

How much could the military budget of your country conceivably be cut?

If the US closed all bases and pulled back to a defensive posture with large oceans east, friendly neighbors to the north and south, and nuclear weapons as a deterrent, how much could we actually cut?

I'm thinking that number is close to 90%.

 

[granfire]

How much could the military budget of your country conceivably be cut?

If the US closed all bases and pulled back to a defensive posture with large oceans east, friendly neighbors to the north and south, and nuclear weapons as a deterrent, how much could we actually cut?

I'm thinking that number is close to 90%.

Post closures cost about a much as it saved...

 

[Big Don]

How much could the military budget of your country conceivably be cut?

If the US closed all bases and pulled back to a defensive posture with large oceans east, friendly neighbors to the north and south, and nuclear weapons as a deterrent, how much could we actually cut?

I'm thinking that number is close to 90%.

You realize the military employs a whole lot of civilians in various capacities, don't you? How many people do you want to put out of work?
Friendly neighbors to the south? Really? Who would that be?

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

As long as we're talking about reducing the deficit, and everything is on the chopping block, here's an easy one; stop giving hundreds of billions of dollars to military contractors that defraud the government.

Strangely, I hear lots of noise about welfare fraud and medicare fraud and illegal aliens costing us huge sums in medical expenses...but here's some low-hanging fruit and nobody wants to talk about it. It shows up in a military.com news website and where else? Big headline news? Nah, that doesn't matter. We have to go after 'big pharma' and 'illegal aliens using taxpayer services'. How about going after something that we can actually DO something about? Nope, not interested.

Sigh...

http://www.military.com/news/articl...s-that-defrauded-dod.html?ESRC=topstories.RSS

How do you figure we can actually do something about it?

Your commentary on the illegal alien thing is that the Federal Government doesn't have the political will to accomplish the goal. Why would they have the political will to do this either, especially when it will, in all likelihood, affect their "paycheck".

One reason people are more likely to talk about "Big Pharma" and illegal aliens is that there is a direct impact on thier lives. I think you would be hard pressed to show how a company repackaging ammunition (an example cited in the article) affects them directly.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

While I agree, of course that any graft is a bad thing, I'm more forgiving of graft in military procurement than in welfare programs for the simple reason, that military procurement actually produces results.

It's not just simple graft. In some cases, suppliers have sold body armor to the US Marines and Army that is not in fact armor; Marines and soldiers have died as a result. Surplus Chinese military ammunition has been relabeled and sold to the military as new or as surplus from approved sources; this ammunition has failed in the theatre, potentially resulting in more dead soldiers and Marines. Helmets have been sold that do not meet the required and contracted standards for protection against penetration, servicemen have died as a result.

You don't have a problem with that? I do.

Not only have the offending companies only been fined (if that much) for such actions, they continue to do business with the government; often due to this congressman or that senator defending their home state's suppliers from any punitive action by the federal government.

And you don't have a problem with that?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

How do you figure we can actually do something about it?

In 2007, we charged this criminal scum company (my opinion only) and it's top officers with fraud:

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,154813,00.html?ESRC=eb.nl

We still buy body armor from them:

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/01/army-ig-questions-body-armor-011511/

You tell me - how hard is it to say WE WILL NOT DO BUSINESS WITH COMPANIES THAT DEFRAUD US?

Your commentary on the illegal alien thing is that the Federal Government doesn't have the political will to accomplish the goal. Why would they have the political will to do this either, especially when it will, in all likelihood, affect their "paycheck".

I absolutely agree with this. There is very little chance that the federal government will stop doing business with crooks when the politicians accept their money as campaign donations and citizens frankly do not care one way or another.

One reason people are more likely to talk about "Big Pharma" and illegal aliens is that there is a direct impact on thier lives. I think you would be hard pressed to show how a company repackaging ammunition (an example cited in the article) affects them directly.

Dead sons and daughters are rather directly affecting their lives, I would think. But the numbers haven't been huge, the scandal not reported very well, and it is hard to establish that faulty ammunition is the reason they died. So I'll agree that most would not see a direct impact; there may well be one, but they don't know it.

 

[granfire]

Most people don't see the correlation between taxes, deficit and money they get from government.

So it's 'ok' to grab a handful of ink pens from the boss who's a faceless entity.
Since 'everybody does it' or 'the money is up for grabs'.


But yes, the cases of fraud do not make the national headlines, as they should.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Most people don't see the correlation between taxes, deficit and money they get from government.

So it's 'ok' to grab a handful of ink pens from the boss who's a faceless entity.
Since 'everybody does it' or 'the money is up for grabs'.


But yes, the cases of fraud do not make the national headlines, as they should.

And by the same token, people often say that this or that government service is 'free'. Of course it is not free; nothing of value can be given for free indefinitely. In the case of government services or money or goods, it is either paid for by tax dollars or added to the deficit and then the national debt as an IOU that our children will have to pay. There is no such thing as 'free' services from the government.

But ask people if they want 'free healthcare' or 'taxpayer-funded healthcare'. They're the same thing, but ask the the question one way and get one answer; ask another way and get another answer.

It's the same thing with this massive military contracting fraud. It's OK because it's not our money - except, of course, that it is. Every dollar stolen from the US government is paid for by us. Tolerating it is not just wrong, it's obscene.

 

[yorkshirelad]

??

, common or garden enemies, lost sailors etc etc.

What, like gnomes?

 

[Tez3]

What, like gnomes?

especially gnomes!