Five year old is a first dan black belt...

[rmclain]

Besides diminishing the public perception of a black belt, or revealing the quality a "black belt" represents to her instructor...

I'm impressed that a 5 year old is able to have the attention span to do anything for 2 hours a day. I am hopeful that she learns the lesson that hard work does have rewards. Could provide a great life-lesson at a very young age and set the standard for her life. What a great opportunity for her and her family.

R. McLain

 

[MJS]

I'm impressed that a 5 year old is able to have the attention span to do anything for 2 hours a day.
R. McLain

Well, that I do agree with. Many of the 5yr olds that I used to teach had the attention span of a fly. Of course, there were those that did pay attention, but they were often outnumbered by those that didn't. So, that being said, I give her at least that much credit.

 

[Cirdan]

I got this scene stuck in my mind now... a horde of 5 year old ninjas bouncing along the rooftops like in that anime Ninja Scroll

 

[shesulsa]

The instructor is the girls *father* - that says a lot. And he got her nicely exploited so she can see the world, too. Isn't that precious? :rpo:

 

[donjitsu2]

Ummmm... See the CNN article. This came out today,

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/10/08/karate.black.belt.five/index.html

- Ceicei

This is one of the reasons people don't take TMA seriously. Absurd.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ummmm... See the CNN article. This came out today,

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/10/08/karate.black.belt.five/index.html

- Ceicei

Okay, so she has a black belt.

In Karate.

Someone else commented that they do not say what style of karate, so it could be anything from Goju Ryu to Taekwondo, as most people use the term karate for pretty much everything that is not specifically Chinese. The it is all Kung fu.

I have only one question which came to me as I read the comment that she can teach at second dan: How old does she have to be to get second dan?

Over on one of the youth BB threads in the TKD section, the subject of belts being used to bracket competition came up, and used in that regard, you have one set of issues, and a case could be made that so long as everyone knows that it is just for bracketing competition, then it is not so hideously bad.

But entering the 5-7 year old division at the local karate tournament is not her aspiration. Her aspiriation is to teach. Six and seven year olds are incapable of effectively running a class, so if she is eligible in whatever system to be second dan and to teach, then I think I will have to go all Twin Fist on this one and call BS.

If, on the other hand, she has to wait until she is, say sixteen, to test for any dan grade beyond first, then I can live with that. It is not what I would consider ideal or even proper, but I can tolerate it.

To reiterate what I have said in other threads on the subject, a black belt only holds substantive meaning within the school of issuance. If you believe otherwise, then you are fooling yourself. Yes, people outside of your school may respect you for it, and it will tell them, if nothing else, that you have been training for at least two years in something. Beyond that, it tells nothing.

I do not measure my rank, its meaning, or its value by what is done in some school down the road, in another state, or in another country. I know exactly what it means: that I have learned and am proficient in the colored belt material at Korean Martial Arts, inc. in Taekwondo and Kendo. After I hopefully pass my hapkido BB test, whenever that happens, it will mean that I have learned and am proficient in the colored belt material in that too. In that school, to the standards of GM Kim. Period.

Black belts are essentially the equivallent of a high school diploma. Some h/s diplomas are looked upon more favorably than others because the colleges know that some high schools have higher standards than others.

Thus it is more important who put the belt on you than what color it is.

Daniel

 

[Live True]

Has anyone else noticed her facial expression and form in the picture with the article?

Besides the soft, shy commentary noted in a previous post...this says a lot about her fundamental attitude. It is my belief that a BB should have confidence in themselves and be able to display, what we call in Uechi, Mushin (no mind). I'm not seeing any example of that in the limited scope of this article. I'm willing to allow for posed photography, but this doesn't seem the aspect of a confident, experienced karate practitioner.

I admire her dedication and she may have true skills. However, I'm not sure which is sadder, the impact this has on the martial arts community or the impact it has on her (or hasn't had, as far as apparent self-confidence goes).:disgust:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Has anyone else noticed her facial expression and form in the picture with the article?

Besides the soft, shy commentary noted in a previous post...this says a lot about her fundamental attitude. It is my belief that a BB should have confidence in themselves and be able to display, what we call in Uechi, Mushin (no mind). I'm not seeing any example of that in the limited scope of this article. I'm willing to allow for posed photography, but this doesn't seem the aspect of a confident, experienced karate practitioner.

I admire her dedication and she may have true skills. However, I'm not sure which is sadder, the impact this has on the martial arts community or the impact it has on her (or hasn't had, as far as apparent self-confidence goes).:disgust:

You make very good points, Shana!

And is any five year old even capable of really displaying uechi?

Daniel

 

[MJS]

Okay, so she has a black belt.

In Karate.

Someone else commented that they do not say what style of karate, so it could be anything from Goju Ryu to Taekwondo, as most people use the term karate for pretty much everything that is not specifically Chinese. The it is all Kung fu.

That was me.

I have only one question which came to me as I read the comment that she can teach at second dan: How old does she have to be to get second dan?

Well, one would have to ask...how old was she when she started, because it seems to me that she was seriously fast tracked. So if they give her a 1st at 5, then she'll probably be a 2nd when she's 6. Then again, seeing that this is an obvious mcdojo, she'll probably be on tap for 2nd in a few weeks.

Over on one of the youth BB threads in the TKD section, the subject of belts being used to bracket competition came up, and used in that regard, you have one set of issues, and a case could be made that so long as everyone knows that it is just for bracketing competition, then it is not so hideously bad.

But entering the 5-7 year old division at the local karate tournament is not her aspiration. Her aspiriation is to teach. Six and seven year olds are incapable of effectively running a class, so if she is eligible in whatever system to be second dan and to teach, then I think I will have to go all Twin Fist on this one and call BS.

If, on the other hand, she has to wait until she is, say sixteen, to test for any dan grade beyond first, then I can live with that. It is not what I would consider ideal or even proper, but I can tolerate it.

I asked a similar quesiton of someone whos kid is fast tracked. I asked how the kid feels if he has to wait for his next rank? I mean, if he's fast tracked to 1st degree, but has to wait, I'd imagine the kids probably gonna wonder why he suddenly was moving right along and now comes to a stand still. I never got an answer.

But still...its pretty sad, IMHO, that people bump a kid to 1st, just for the sake of a competition? Is that all that matters to these people? You also mention that a kid that age is not able to conduct a class. That was another question I asked. The kid was 12 and I believe a 2nd degree...so I asked, if the kid was asked a serious question on the art, would be provide the same detailed reply? My reply was: It would be a reply that would come from a 12yr olds line of thinking. Well, needless to say, that spoke volumes to me. So translation....NO, the kid would not be able to provide a detailed reply.

To reiterate what I have said in other threads on the subject, a black belt only holds substantive meaning within the school of issuance. If you believe otherwise, then you are fooling yourself. Yes, people outside of your school may respect you for it, and it will tell them, if nothing else, that you have been training for at least two years in something. Beyond that, it tells nothing.

I do not measure my rank, its meaning, or its value by what is done in some school down the road, in another state, or in another country. I know exactly what it means: that I have learned and am proficient in the colored belt material at Korean Martial Arts, inc. in Taekwondo and Kendo. After I hopefully pass my hapkido BB test, whenever that happens, it will mean that I have learned and am proficient in the colored belt material in that too. In that school, to the standards of GM Kim. Period.

Black belts are essentially the equivallent of a high school diploma. Some h/s diplomas are looked upon more favorably than others because the colleges know that some high schools have higher standards than others.

Thus it is more important who put the belt on you than what color it is.

Daniel

People such as this inst. as well as any other inst. that hands out ranks to kids, is more concerned with the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ than anything else. I laugh when I see, "Well, Master A whos a 5th degree, Master B whos an 8th and Master C whos a 9th, all say that Joey is worthy of 2nd degree." I call serious BS on that. Of course they're going to say that...they dont give a **** about the kid, they give a **** about the cash..period.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

People such as this inst. as well as any other inst. that hands out ranks to kids, is more concerned with the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ than anything else. I laugh when I see, "Well, Master A whos a 5th degree, Master B whos an 8th and Master C whos a 9th, all say that Joey is worthy of 2nd degree." I call serious BS on that. Of course they're going to say that...they dont give a **** about the kid, they give a **** about the cash..period.

Well, I think that it is pretty obvious that unless the school is running the kids program like a kids football league. In that case, it may not be just about money. But I think that if that is the case, it should be called "Karate league" and that there should be a specific competition black belt, that actually says, "Competition" on it. Once again, not ideal, but I can live with it.

As for the fifth, eighth, and ninth degree masters who say that the kid deserves it are probably also known for handing out belt candy in the MA community of their area. Those masters may be very competent practitioners themselves, but that really does not mean much; some very excellent practitioners have sold out the art for cash.

Once again, having a belt from someone who is known to just hand them out is still a belt and may carry weight within an organization. But you had better be prepared to show that you are worth it on your own merit, because having the belt from one of those guys will quite possibly be viewed as a strike against you.

Daniel

 

[MJS]

Well, I think that it is pretty obvious that unless the school is running the kids program like a kids football league. In that case, it may not be just about money. But I think that if that is the case, it should be called "Karate league" and that there should be a specific competition black belt, that actually says, "Competition" on it. Once again, not ideal, but I can live with it.

As for the fifth, eighth, and ninth degree masters who say that the kid deserves it are probably also known for handing out belt candy in the MA community of their area. Those masters may be very competent practitioners themselves, but that really does not mean much; some very excellent practitioners have sold out the art for cash.

Daniel

If not for the cash, then I'd say at least for bragging rights. I mean, imagine the look on Joeys face, when him and his mom walk into the Mcdojo and see 20 kids, all around the same age as Joey, all wearing black belts. Joey gets so excited that he begs his mom to join. The inst. emits this impression that "Yes Joey!! You too can be a McDojoite and have one of those belts!" LOL!

All kidding aside though...unless the inst. was teaching at the community room at the local Y or town hall, chances are, he's doing it for the money.

My apologies in advance, if my posts come across harsh. This is just one of those topics that rubs me the wrong way. I love the arts, I love the training, and I love the things that I've reaped from it. Its sad when so many people ruin the arts with their selfish actions. Thank God there're still some traditional schools out there, where you actually have to work for your belt.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If not for the cash, then I'd say at least for bragging rights. I mean, imagine the look on Joeys face, when him and his mom walk into the Mcdojo and see 20 kids, all around the same age as Joey, all wearing black belts. Joey gets so excited that he begs his mom to join. The inst. emits this impression that "Yes Joey!! You too can be a McDojoite and have one of those belts!" LOL!

All kidding aside though...unless the inst. was teaching at the community room at the local Y or town hall, chances are, he's doing it for the money.

My apologies in advance, if my posts come across harsh. This is just one of those topics that rubs me the wrong way. I love the arts, I love the training, and I love the things that I've reaped from it. Its sad when so many people ruin the arts with their selfish actions. Thank God there're still some traditional schools out there, where you actually have to work for your belt.

Your posts do not seem harsh to me, but I am not a proponent of children wearing black belts, even for competition.

I am a proponent of the Kukkiwon's poom belt system, though I do feel that it is broken. But it is easily fixed. And the system is easilly adapted to any art that uses a belt system.

When an instructor gives a kid a BB for competition bracketing or for learning the colored belt material and wish to keep them around, they are doing the very thing that the poom was designed for. And there is a red/black poom belt for poom rank kids.

The problem is two fold in that instructors put black belts on non-dan rank students and that at fifteen, with the filing of paperwork, all poom ranks convert to dans, thus creating fifteen year old third dans and subsequently, eighteen year old fourth dans.

The fix is fairly easy in my opinion. A simple three step process:

1. Have poom 1-4, with 4 being for age twelve to fourteen.
2. Require poom grade students to wear a poom belt and penalize schools that ignore this requirement.
3. Any fifteen year old may test for first dan, but the 4th poom student should receive a test that is directed towards the non-competition related items. Poom ranks should not convert.

By this point, he or she has already proven that they know their forms and can spar within the system, have plenty of endurance, and likely can break pretty darn well. So make their test a more technical/knowledge based test and focus on SD rather than competition sparring in the physical section. The only competition related material shoudl be to have the student spar an adult BB.

From attaining first dan at fifteen, the normal time period between dans would then be enforced. Thus the student would be eligible to tesf for second dan at sixteen, third at eighteen, and fourth at twenty one, assuming that the student continues to train and is tested in that timeframe.

This way, they still have a competition bracket that keeps competition fair and ranks beyond first kyu for hard working tykes who stick with it, but the integrity of the dan rank and black belt is maintained.

Daniel

 

[Stac3y]

Poor kid.

 

[suicide]

who knows shes probably gifted and ahead of her time ? :redcaptur

 

[MJS]

Your posts do not seem harsh to me, but I am not a proponent of children wearing black belts, even for competition.

I am a proponent of the Kukkiwon's poom belt system, though I do feel that it is broken. But it is easily fixed. And the system is easilly adapted to any art that uses a belt system.

When an instructor gives a kid a BB for competition bracketing or for learning the colored belt material and wish to keep them around, they are doing the very thing that the poom was designed for. And there is a red/black poom belt for poom rank kids.

The problem is two fold in that instructors put black belts on non-dan rank students and that at fifteen, with the filing of paperwork, all poom ranks convert to dans, thus creating fifteen year old third dans and subsequently, eighteen year old fourth dans.

The fix is fairly easy in my opinion. A simple three step process:

1. Have poom 1-4, with 4 being for age twelve to fourteen.
2. Require poom grade students to wear a poom belt and penalize schools that ignore this requirement.
3. Any fifteen year old may test for first dan, but the 4th poom student should receive a test that is directed towards the non-competition related items. Poom ranks should not convert.

By this point, he or she has already proven that they know their forms and can spar within the system, have plenty of endurance, and likely can break pretty darn well. So make their test a more technical/knowledge based test and focus on SD rather than competition sparring in the physical section. The only competition related material shoudl be to have the student spar an adult BB.

From attaining first dan at fifteen, the normal time period between dans would then be enforced. Thus the student would be eligible to tesf for second dan at sixteen, third at eighteen, and fourth at twenty one, assuming that the student continues to train and is tested in that timeframe.

This way, they still have a competition bracket that keeps competition fair and ranks beyond first kyu for hard working tykes who stick with it, but the integrity of the dan rank and black belt is maintained.

Daniel

Explain this poom to me again please. I"m assuming its a belt or belts that are given to kids that aren't at the BB age yet?

As for the system that you describe...sounds good to me. Of course, the thing is, is that the system seems to be so far gone, I'm not sure how it'd be fixed. This would require some serious policing of the art. Explain to me the 1-4 poom. Will the child whos not ready for full BB yet, actually testing for each 1-4 poom? So for ex...a 12yr old is ready for "BB" but technically not old enough. So he tests for a poom 1. He moves thru this process until he's old enough for full BB, lets say 16 for the sake of discussion. He then tests for a full adult BB. Am I correct on this?

 

[MJS]

who knows shes probably gifted and ahead of her time ? :redcaptur

Are you being serious here, sarcastic, or following your usual protocol for posting, and just posting some random stuff, for the sake of making a post? Either way, who the hell cares if she's gifted. Fact of the matter is, she's too damn young for a BB.

I'm going to say something that the nutrider group usually says...I want to see video of this girl. I want to see some sort of live proof that she performs the way its claimed, otherwise I called BS on her, her inst. and the school she trains at.

 

[Twin Fist]

thats just friggin TACKY

and i might add, given my well known stance on THAT subject, you are just abusing sarcasm now...

I may be wrong, but I believe she earned her BB rank at 'Twin Fist Martial Arts' in Texas.

 

[MJS]

thats just friggin TACKY

and i might add, given my well known stance on THAT subject, you are just abusing sarcasm now...

The issue has been dealt with, thus the mod note that was placed. Lets not feed into the comment anymore, for the sake of some sanity in this thread.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Explain this poom to me again please. I"m assuming its a belt or belts that are given to kids that aren't at the BB age yet?

Yes.

As for the system that you describe...sounds good to me. Of course, the thing is, is that the system seems to be so far gone, I'm not sure how it'd be fixed. This would require some serious policing of the art. Explain to me the 1-4 poom. Will the child whos not ready for full BB yet, actually testing for each 1-4 poom? So for ex...a 12yr old is ready for "BB" but technically not old enough. So he tests for a poom 1. He moves thru this process until he's old enough for full BB, lets say 16 for the sake of discussion. He then tests for a full adult BB. Am I correct on this?

Not so much that it is 'so far gone' as it simply never was quite there.

Essentially, a student who is under fifteen goes through the colored belt curriculum at his or her school and is at a point where, were they an adult, they would be testing for first dan, is tested in the member school. Presumably the test is the same test that adults get, but scaled for a kid.

Assuming that the child passes, the paperwork goes to the Kukkiwon. They issue a certificate that reads, "First Poom."

At this point, the instructor ought to put a poom belt and a poom dobok on the kid. A poom belt is half red and half black, and a poom dobok is essentially the same as your TKD black belt dobok with the black collar, but the collar is half red/half black, just like the belt. This is the first point of break down: most of the time, the instructor puts a black belt on the student.

If the child is young enough that they will be eligible for second dan before they are fifteen, then they are tested for second poom and receive a certificate that reads "Second Poom." The same can be done for third poom, assuming that the student is young enough.

The second area of breakdown is that once the child is fifteen, the instructor can file paperwork and all of poom ranks convert to dan ranks, no test required. Thus a third poom is now third dan at the age of fifteen.

It should be noted that this is not automated. An eight year old first poom who quits after getting his belt and never comes back is still first poom, even if he is now thirty.

As I said, fixing it would be fairly easy. Making the poom ranks intermediate ranks (between kyu and dan), rather than unfinalized dan ranks that convert upon the child's fifteenth birthday would pretty much solve it.

And even if the organization will not implement it, a creative school owner certainly could.

Daniel

 

[pete]

Seems to bother those most who emphasize THE BELT. All the belt means is that the student met the requirements put forth by the instructor and the school. Results will vary.

It doesn't bother me, or affect me at all, since i could give a rats *** what goes on in another school, even if its the same style i teach. Not my responsibility or my problem.

Belts are for kids anyway... Adults should be more concerned with knowledge, skill, and improvement.

pete.