Find a video I really like on knife practice

[Alan0354]

I have been looking into small knife fight lately. I really don't have much time to practice because I am already working on Stick fight with a cane and kickboxing type of bare knuckle and weight training. Knife is like a back up plan after my cane and pepper spray. So I really cannot afford to spend a lot of time practicing.

A lot of the video I found were talking about grappling, interaction with opponent close up and how to grapple and cut and all that. That is useless for me as I practice alone, I will NOT be going to any school. Put it in another way, if I really have to go to one school, it will be stick fight. So all the grappling stuff is USELESS as I don't have a partner.

That said, today, I found one that I really like and I can practice easily. It's Filipino Kali:

I was surprised the movement is similar to Filipino Kali stick fight that I actually practice for about 3 months at the very beginning before I switched to two hand holding the cane. So I am actually familiar with the moves. It's very simple, just a few moves and combine slash and thrust.

I started practice about a week or so ago before I watch this video. I mainly holding the knife in my right hand in Orthodox stance(left forward) like boxing. I literal think about the knife similar to punching. Instead when I attack, I do slash or thrust. But, it all started as the right punch(reverse punch or right cross). The left hand just serve to protect the body or protect the knife from being grabbed, or even do jabs. This video gives me ideas on top of like punching.

I find myself really like a lot of what I saw in Filipino MA, they are not fancy, not very nice looking, BUT very simple but practical. Even when I practice cane with two hands, I still think about the Escrima I learned before, just using two hands.

At this point, I am just excited and just want to post here. I don't have any particular question.

 

[Jimmythebull]

I like this ..

 

[The Gray (Hair) Man]

I like the Libre Fighting videos.

 

[geezer]

I like the Libre Fighting videos.

These techniques are a lot more applicable in a life or death situation than the exaggeratedly big moves shown by the Kali Center guy above.

These Libre guys totally get it that knife fighting is not "defense" ...it's about killing the other guy. I agree with that ...which is why I'm personally not a big knife fighting fan for "self defense".

 

[drop bear]

These techniques are a lot more applicable in a life or death situation than the exaggeratedly big moves shown by the Kali Center guy above.

These Libre guys totally get it that knife fighting is not "defense" ...it's about killing the other guy. I agree with that ...which is why I'm personally not a big knife fighting fan for "self defense".

Doesn't that seem fundamentally the wrong way to go considering the huge risk you are going to get stabbed back?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Doesn't that seem fundamentally the wrong way to go considering the huge risk you are going to get stabbed back?

This is the big problem with any sort of blade vs blade fighting. Inflicting severe harm on an opponent isn't that difficult. Inflicting that harm without the other person doing the same to you at the same time is really hard.

It's a little easier with sword vs sword. The longer blade gives the sword more defensive capability than a knife and a sword has a greater chance of landing a strike that is immediately incapacitating. Even so, it takes a lot of skill to land a lethal strike on an opponent without giving them the opportunity to land one of their own in return.

With knives, it's worse. Even multiple lethal cuts or stabs won't necessarily make an opponent stop immediately. So in order to cut/stab an opponent in a knife fight without being cut or stabbed in return you need to

• Control their weapon the entire time, including making sure they don't pass their knife to their off-hand or draw another blade with their off-hand (very difficult to do reliably) or
• Get into range without being cut, inflict damage, get back out of range without being cut, then play keep away from an opponent who might be charging you until they succumb to their injuries (very difficult to do reliably) or
• Disarm the opponent (very difficult to do reliably against a knife) or
• Cut/stab the opponent before they get you, then hope that they notice the injury, freak out, and stop fighting rather than come at you hell bent on revenge. (Possible, but completely out of your control.)

I've done enough knife sparring to know that even though I have a significant skill advantage over most people, that skill would not be enough to make me feel remotely safe in a knife vs knife fight against a determined opponent who really wanted to hurt me.

 

[tkdroamer]

This is the big problem with any sort of blade vs blade fighting. Inflicting severe harm on an opponent isn't that difficult. Inflicting that harm without the other person doing the same to you at the same time is really hard.

It's a little easier with sword vs sword. The longer blade gives the sword more defensive capability than a knife and a sword has a greater chance of landing a strike that is immediately incapacitating. Even so, it takes a lot of skill to land a lethal strike on an opponent without giving them the opportunity to land one of their own in return.

With knives, it's worse. Even multiple lethal cuts or stabs won't necessarily make an opponent stop immediately. So in order to cut/stab an opponent in a knife fight without being cut or stabbed in return you need to

• Control their weapon the entire time, including making sure they don't pass their knife to their off-hand or draw another blade with their off-hand (very difficult to do reliably) or
• Get into range without being cut, inflict damage, get back out of range without being cut, then play keep away from an opponent who might be charging you until they succumb to their injuries (very difficult to do reliably) or
• Disarm the opponent (very difficult to do reliably against a knife) or
• Cut/stab the opponent before they get you, then hope that they notice the injury, freak out, and stop fighting rather than come at you hell bent on revenge. (Possible, but completely out of your control.)

I've done enough knife sparring to know that even though I have a significant skill advantage over most people, that skill would not be enough to make me feel remotely safe in a knife vs knife fight against a determined opponent who really wanted to hurt me.

I fully agree with this.
I would say 2 & 4 are the only realistic options, in a hopefully unrealistic scenario.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I fully agree with this.
I would say 2 & 4 are the only realistic options, in a hopefully unrealistic scenario.

1 & 3 can occur, particularly if you have a significant advantage in grappling skill. But it's opportunistic. I can't reliably get hold of someone's knife arm if they have any skill at all, but if I do happen to get a grip on it in the middle of the action, then my grappling experience helps out a lot.

I think in another thread @drop bear mentioned his experience getting control of people before they can draw and deploy knives they are wearing. Not having his professional background, I've never had to do that in real life. But situational sparring has convinced me that is a much, much more manageable scenario.

 

[The Gray (Hair) Man]

This is the big problem with any sort of blade vs blade fighting. Inflicting severe harm on an opponent isn't that difficult. Inflicting that harm without the other person doing the same to you at the same time is really hard.

IMHO blade vs. blade scenarios are pretty rare. I've searched YouTube for them and all the ones I've found are in other countries. Nobody wants to get into a REAL knife fight. But I could see deploying a blade against someone with a bat or crowbar or other blunt weapon.

Perhaps if someone pulls a knife on you to intimidate, you can deploy yours, but I doubt it will progress into a real knife vs. knife fight. However, should it, I also like Kelly McCann's philosophy of keeping distance and cutting any attack that comes towards you.

 

[drop bear]

This is the big problem with any sort of blade vs blade fighting. Inflicting severe harm on an opponent isn't that difficult. Inflicting that harm without the other person doing the same to you at the same time is really hard.

It's a little easier with sword vs sword. The longer blade gives the sword more defensive capability than a knife and a sword has a greater chance of landing a strike that is immediately incapacitating. Even so, it takes a lot of skill to land a lethal strike on an opponent without giving them the opportunity to land one of their own in return.

With knives, it's worse. Even multiple lethal cuts or stabs won't necessarily make an opponent stop immediately. So in order to cut/stab an opponent in a knife fight without being cut or stabbed in return you need to

• Control their weapon the entire time, including making sure they don't pass their knife to their off-hand or draw another blade with their off-hand (very difficult to do reliably) or
• Get into range without being cut, inflict damage, get back out of range without being cut, then play keep away from an opponent who might be charging you until they succumb to their injuries (very difficult to do reliably) or
• Disarm the opponent (very difficult to do reliably against a knife) or
• Cut/stab the opponent before they get you, then hope that they notice the injury, freak out, and stop fighting rather than come at you hell bent on revenge. (Possible, but completely out of your control.)

I've done enough knife sparring to know that even though I have a significant skill advantage over most people, that skill would not be enough to make me feel remotely safe in a knife vs knife fight against a determined opponent who really wanted to hurt me.

That meat grinder style seems a bit ambitious.

 

[tkdroamer]

1 & 3 can occur, particularly if you have a significant advantage in grappling skill. But it's opportunistic. I can't reliably get hold of someone's knife arm if they have any skill at all, but if I do happen to get a grip on it in the middle of the action, then my grappling experience helps out a lot.

I think in another thread @drop bear mentioned his experience getting control of people before they can draw and deploy knives they are wearing. Not having his professional background, I've never had to do that in real life. But situational sparring has convinced me that is a much, much more manageable scenario.

We had a 'hands drill' in defensive tactics classes when I was LEO. I could usually get at least a hand on an arm or weapon before it was pulled but it could leave you in an awkward position if you were not careful. It always felt at though there was some bias in the drills because both sides knew what was about to happen. You just didn't know exactly when. I always felt it was harder to effectively do it in that fashion.
It is amazing how much the art of conversation (BS'ing ) and distraction helps. In the normal give and take of a law encounter, there is usually a change to assess and decide when it is the best time to advance.
My FMA experience worked very little on grabbing and zero on grappling.
I wonder what would happen to a LEO nowadays if they slammed someone, even if they were in the process of drawing a weapon? Still better to go home at the end of the shift.

 

[frank raud]

I have been looking into small knife fight lately. I really don't have much time to practice because I am already working on Stick fight with a cane and kickboxing type of bare knuckle and weight training. Knife is like a back up plan after my cane and pepper spray. So I really cannot afford to spend a lot of time practicing.

A lot of the video I found were talking about grappling, interaction with opponent close up and how to grapple and cut and all that. That is useless for me as I practice alone, I will NOT be going to any school. Put it in another way, if I really have to go to one school, it will be stick fight. So all the grappling stuff is USELESS as I don't have a partner.

That said, today, I found one that I really like and I can practice easily. It's Filipino Kali:

I was surprised the movement is similar to Filipino Kali stick fight that I actually practice for about 3 months at the very beginning before I switched to two hand holding the cane. So I am actually familiar with the moves. It's very simple, just a few moves and combine slash and thrust.

I started practice about a week or so ago before I watch this video. I mainly holding the knife in my right hand in Orthodox stance(left forward) like boxing. I literal think about the knife similar to punching. Instead when I attack, I do slash or thrust. But, it all started as the right punch(reverse punch or right cross). The left hand just serve to protect the body or protect the knife from being grabbed, or even do jabs. This video gives me ideas on top of like punching.

I find myself really like a lot of what I saw in Filipino MA, they are not fancy, not very nice looking, BUT very simple but practical. Even when I practice cane with two hands, I still think about the Escrima I learned before, just using two hands.

At this point, I am just excited and just want to post here. I don't have any particular question.

So, your backup plan is to have a sub 4" blade, but you think you will be able to maintain the same distance/ range as with your cane, so close contact work is irrelevant? You can do a lot of damage with a small blade, but it is not a sword. As a grappler, I'd love someone to hold a small knife at arms length, much easier to deal with than in close bladework. You train by yourself? Do you have a BOB? Do you have a room with access to the walls? Get close into a corner, the walls will restrict your movements. Visualize the inside corner of the walls as the centerline of the body. You're satisfied training cane without active resistance or feedback, do the same with the knife. As you don't have a partner, tuck yourself into the corner, try to deploy and open your knife in a constricted area. If it's your backup tool, don't expect the luxury of having free time to open at your leisure. It's not perfect Training, but it's better than nothing.

 

[wab25]

We had a 'hands drill' in defensive tactics classes when I was LEO. I could usually get at least a hand on an arm or weapon before it was pulled but it could leave you in an awkward position if you were not careful.

At one of our clinics, we invited one of the more hard core knife fighting groups to come teach us a little about defending from their attacks. They had us do an interesting drill.

First, we learned the cutting pattern to use, with the knife. Then we learned to "defend" that pattern, by parrying, redirecting and getting out of the way of each cut. This we ramped up in speed and determination for a bit. Then they showed two disarms that present themselves in the pattern. After we got to be okay at both disarms... they discussed that awkward position of, I went for the disarm, but it did not work and now I am open... So, now the attacker was cutting in the pattern, and the defender was blocking in the pattern and whenever the defender wanted to, he could try either of the disarms. Then attacker was told to allow the disarms to work most of the time, but then don't allow the disarm to work, but continue the same pattern. The test here was to see how the defender reacted to the failed disarm... could he immediately go back into the defending pattern?

What was interesting was that even though you knew the pattern, and where the next cut was coming from... you still got into awkward positions and got cut, when you unexpectedly missed your disarm. Over time, you learned to go for the disarm, in a way that you were in a decent position, should it fail. It seemed to me, the the more I concentrated on making and securing my grab for the disarm, the more I got cut. The more I went with the flow, and did not worry about the disarm, the easier it was to blend in and accomplish the disarm.... when I was not too busy being cut...

The other thing to focus on was that the guy with the knife was the one that was told to decide if the disarm would work or not. And they did not need to spend a lot of time on how to not be disarmed.

Anyway, I thought it was an interesting way to drill the knife disarms...

 

[Alan0354]

So, your backup plan is to have a sub 4" blade, but you think you will be able to maintain the same distance/ range as with your cane, so close contact work is irrelevant? You can do a lot of damage with a small blade, but it is not a sword. As a grappler, I'd love someone to hold a small knife at arms length, much easier to deal with than in close bladework. You train by yourself? Do you have a BOB? Do you have a room with access to the walls? Get close into a corner, the walls will restrict your movements. Visualize the inside corner of the walls as the centerline of the body. You're satisfied training cane without active resistance or feedback, do the same with the knife. As you don't have a partner, tuck yourself into the corner, try to deploy and open your knife in a constricted area. If it's your backup tool, don't expect the luxury of having free time to open at your leisure. It's not perfect Training, but it's better than nothing.

What is a BOB? A dummy?

Thanks for the advice. The knife is for if heaven forbid I lose my cane. I won't be using a knife if I still have the cane.

I actually practice close quarter with cane, meaning I spend a lot of time not swing, but thrusting, using the crook handle of the cane to " punch" out for close distance. I did kick boxing style before, so I practice kicking with the cane. Like I hit the head, then I use WC step front kick to the knee or round kick to the leg, thigh and knee in combination. Those are for close distance. With open space, it's a lot easier.

As for knife, I literally based on kick boxing. I hold the knife in my right hand in orthodox stance so it's tuck in close to my face with left hand up front. They can grab my left hand!!! I thrust like I do punching, I do slashing and I practice pulling back as fast as I attack to minimize the chance of being grab.

I practice slashing forward, then quickly follow up with the step kick to the knee or round kick to leg or front kick to the body. I use the knife to distract the person to open up the rest of the body.

I practice slashing and thrusting( shanking) on my two heavy bags. I modified a plastic knife further with rubber foot for canes, tie on the tip to protect the heavy bags.

Actually slashing and thrusting on an object is VERY VERY DIFFERENT feel than just practice in air. I bet people only practice in air would be very surprised and might not even know how to do it on a real object like a person. It's so different that I practice air and heavy bag 1:1.

I have been practice just as much on knife as on cane now. It's a learning process just like cane, I expect it's a "year" thing, not just two weeks. I think people make a big mistake if they think they carry a cane or a knife and think they are safer.

 

[wab25]

I practice slashing and thrusting( shanking) on my two heavy bags. I modified a plastic knife further with rubber foot for canes, tie on the tip to protect the heavy bags.

Actually slashing and thrusting on an object is VERY VERY DIFFERENT feel than just practice in air.

Are you basing the quality of your thrust and slash, based on how much you move the heavy bag with each one???

Maybe you would be better off buying some meat, hanging that and practicing your thrusts and cuts on meat with a real knife. Knives are not meant to be impact weapons... (at least the blade part is not)

 

[drop bear]

At one of our clinics, we invited one of the more hard core knife fighting groups to come teach us a little about defending from their attacks. They had us do an interesting drill.

First, we learned the cutting pattern to use, with the knife. Then we learned to "defend" that pattern, by parrying, redirecting and getting out of the way of each cut. This we ramped up in speed and determination for a bit. Then they showed two disarms that present themselves in the pattern. After we got to be okay at both disarms... they discussed that awkward position of, I went for the disarm, but it did not work and now I am open... So, now the attacker was cutting in the pattern, and the defender was blocking in the pattern and whenever the defender wanted to, he could try either of the disarms. Then attacker was told to allow the disarms to work most of the time, but then don't allow the disarm to work, but continue the same pattern. The test here was to see how the defender reacted to the failed disarm... could he immediately go back into the defending pattern?

What was interesting was that even though you knew the pattern, and where the next cut was coming from... you still got into awkward positions and got cut, when you unexpectedly missed your disarm. Over time, you learned to go for the disarm, in a way that you were in a decent position, should it fail. It seemed to me, the the more I concentrated on making and securing my grab for the disarm, the more I got cut. The more I went with the flow, and did not worry about the disarm, the easier it was to blend in and accomplish the disarm.... when I was not too busy being cut...

The other thing to focus on was that the guy with the knife was the one that was told to decide if the disarm would work or not. And they did not need to spend a lot of time on how to not be disarmed.

Anyway, I thought it was an interesting way to drill the knife disarms...

This is why I think ignoring the grab and just trying to strike out is a higher percentage than it is given credit for.

 

[drop bear]

What is a BOB? A dummy?

Thanks for the advice. The knife is for if heaven forbid I lose my cane. I won't be using a knife if I still have the cane.

I actually practice close quarter with cane, meaning I spend a lot of time not swing, but thrusting, using the crook handle of the cane to " punch" out for close distance. I did kick boxing style before, so I practice kicking with the cane. Like I hit the head, then I use WC step front kick to the knee or round kick to the leg, thigh and knee in combination. Those are for close distance. With open space, it's a lot easier.

As for knife, I literally based on kick boxing. I hold the knife in my right hand in orthodox stance so it's tuck in close to my face with left hand up front. They can grab my left hand!!! I thrust like I do punching, I do slashing and I practice pulling back as fast as I attack to minimize the chance of being grab.

I practice slashing forward, then quickly follow up with the step kick to the knee or round kick to leg or front kick to the body. I use the knife to distract the person to open up the rest of the body.

I practice slashing and thrusting( shanking) on my two heavy bags. I modified a plastic knife further with rubber foot for canes, tie on the tip to protect the heavy bags.

Actually slashing and thrusting on an object is VERY VERY DIFFERENT feel than just practice in air. I bet people only practice in air would be very surprised and might not even know how to do it on a real object like a person. It's so different that I practice air and heavy bag 1:1.

I have been practice just as much on knife as on cane now. It's a learning process just like cane, I expect it's a "year" thing, not just two weeks. I think people make a big mistake if they think they carry a cane or a knife and think they are safer.

Have you looked in to shiv works stuff?

It is wrestling based. And I kind of luke the look of it.

 

[Alan0354]

Are you basing the quality of your thrust and slash, based on how much you move the heavy bag with each one???

Maybe you would be better off buying some meat, hanging that and practicing your thrusts and cuts on meat with a real knife. Knives are not meant to be impact weapons... (at least the blade part is not)

I am still at the beginning, I can't thrust that hard, I just see it dent into the bag, I never worry about how the bag moves. Slashing is light, just barely move. I only practice for two weeks only.

The knife I carry is very heavy duty, it's not so bad using like an impact weapon also.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09QBVJRY1?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

One question is if you watch the video, the gun put his thumb on the top of the knife, I find for slashing, it's good, BUT for thrusting, I can hurt my thumb doing that if the knife being pushed up when I thrust and it will bend my my thumb back in the wrong direction. I practice holding the knife like a fist before thrusting. Then put the thumb back on the top for slashing. what do you think?

 

[frank raud]

Have you looked in to shiv works stuff?

It is wrestling based. And I kind of luke the look of it.

I've been training with Craig for about 20 years. Unfortunately not as much anymore, but real solid stuff.

 

[wab25]

One question is if you watch the video, the gun put his thumb on the top of the knife, I find for slashing, it's good, BUT for thrusting, I can hurt my thumb doing that if the knife being pushed up when I thrust and it will bend my my thumb back in the wrong direction. I practice holding the knife like a fist before thrusting. Then put the thumb back on the top for slashing. what do you think?

I think you need to stop using a blunted knife as an impact weapon and start doing real cuts with a real knife. Otherwise, you will be developing bad habits that may get you hurt.

Training with someone who knows how to use a knife would be your best bet.... but I know you don't believe in training with instructors...