Filipino Panantukan?

[AriesKai]

I just came across this fighting style while looking at Randy Couture's bio on Wikipedia.
I found a few youtube videos on it. It LOOKS good while the guy sits there and let's the guy turn him into a pretzel; but what about when it's 'in action'?

Is it truly a 'street-effective' fighting style that can be used in self defense?



I'm a realist. I tend to look for what works in constant action, not something that just 'looks pretty'..

 

[MJS]

I just came across this fighting style while looking at Randy Couture's bio on Wikipedia.
I found a few youtube videos on it. It LOOKS good while the guy sits there and let's the guy turn him into a pretzel; but what about when it's 'in action'?

Is it truly a 'street-effective' fighting style that can be used in self defense?



I'm a realist. I tend to look for what works in constant action, not something that just 'looks pretty'..

Is this where you saw it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Couture

If so, I looked and unless I missed it, which I may have, I didn't see any reference to what you're talking about.

 

[MJS]

Ok, now I found it. I clicked on the 'dirty boxing' link, which brings you to this page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panantukan

Yes, this is a FMA term. If you look at the FMAs, while they do fight long range, with weapons, ie: the stick, the in close fighting, ie: the 'dirty fighting'/Panantukan, is used in close. If you watch the UFC and even boxing, you'll see the in-close hits. Of course, due to the nature of the game, ie: boxing and the UFC, there are things that are not done, mainly due to the rules as well as the gloves.

I went to youtube and found quite a few clips of Panantukan. Keep in mind, that YT, while it is good to give someone an idea as to what something is like, does not mean that the clip is the sole deciding factor, as to what the art is all about. Much of what you see, are drills. The idea, just like anything, is to take the drill, apply it slow and gradually work up to a faster pace, adding in some pressure, and being able to flow from one thing to the next.

All of the siniwali drills, the empty hand parries, etc. all blend together, when you're doing a technique, so you will then see the Panantukan, ie: the elbow hits, limb destruction, breaks, locks, chokes, etc.

IMO, it all comes down to how each person trains. You can spend all of your time, doing static drills, never pushing yourself, and claim that what you're doing works. Or you can train the drills, and do what I said above...pick up the pace, work on flowing from one thing to the next, adding in movement, more contact, etc. and stand a better chance to actually being able to pull off what you're training.

 

[Mider1985]

Some really good teachers teach Panantukan like Dan Inosanto or Ron Balicki, you should look the youtube video just type Panantukan and Dan Inosanto and he talks about the origins and shows you the drills. He moves pretty fast by the way and he's like 70.

 

[Jimi]

Many drills for skill and instruction are to profile the techniques for others to learn. Even the cleanest skills of a Pro Boxer will train & demo well, but the fight itself is a live animal that can get ugly as well as dangerous and we do not invite it into our demos for the sake of instruction and learning. A demos is a demo, not a real fight and yes some demos service someones ego more than the art itself.

It is not always about the pure level of combat speed, combat power and combat intent for demos, EXAMPLE: my opponent throws a punch (So feeder throws punch as instructed for teaching purposes) and Instructor destroys feeder like a live situation to show it really works, this should never happen, you lose students/friends like that.

Many videoclips for instruction are set for the instruction of insight, not just bang away for real with no understanding of technique and principle. Thats what backyard wrestling leagues are for, lol.

I do agree that many vids for instruction are done w/ a compliant feeder for the sake of learning and to keep the feeder & demo'r from hurting each other when the communication of insight & tech etc... is much more important. I have seen demos of FMA, Thai Arts, Shooto, Jun Fan JKD, Bando you name it and they have a certain level of compliance from the feeder for just that reason, so you can see and learn. Yes , for some it is an ego thing, watch me pull of this cool stuff, aren't I great?! LOL.

I would hate to work w/ an instructor who says here is your street self defense, throw a punch and he cracks my skull w/ a beer bottle. REAL & EFFECTIVE, but un-neccesary. you see?

I have had issue w/ this before w/ some people simply trying to profile themselves rather than an arts insight. Feeder throws compliant technique and demo'r throws a mean and hard counter hurting feeders limbs, locking him into a seriously harmfull submission thinking how much of a bad$$$ he is showing himself to be when the feeder gave himself to the demo'r for the sake of others learning. This is the instructors egoism issue , not the arts issue. Any art can be seen doing this, Boxing coaches will demo skill very much like this for instruction & understanding, Would you doubt the effectiveness of Boxing because someones vid clip looked too staged for the cool factor? lol

Do not judge an art by the profiling of a feeder & demo'r by its vid clip, these are usually for the sake of seeing segmented moments in time so we can learn to understand what is being applied.

Cut loose every drill and training partners and friends get hurt, train safe and build up to the feeder throwing more deliberate, more combative and even using follow-ups if the demo'r screws up to show the consequences of mistakes in those situations.

In the past demoing Silat w/ my instructor, he had me throw a punch and a kick he was to counter, as he worked his counter I followed up w/ an extra punch after the too initial shots, which he just continued and said see, if he follows with another punch we still parry and sapu the foot to a takedown. This is one thing my instructor liked about using me as a feeder, I helped show how live counters can be and if i could somewhat safely add to the aliveness of a demo all the better, and show how serious consequences can be there if you foul up.

Demos are demos, just that simple, if you see a demo and think that feeder was just giving him the punch = RIGHT, as a feeder you must trust the demo'r to show principle etc... and not destroy you and vice versa, you must trust the feeder will not fire off a killer jab trying to knock you out each set when you are simply instructing an entry or what have you.


But I Don't Want To See A Demo, I Wanna See The Real Thing, lol. Then go to the alley behind Tic Toc Liquors (Insert rough neighborhood here) and wait, you may winde up in the fun too, lol. Now thats real, but we do not go there (ANYMORE, LOL).

AriesKai, if you are a realist as you say, and If you do not feel that Panatukan is effective and is an empty looks pretty cool compliant art, go to where they train and ask for the real deal, they will likely abliege you, lol.

If you find it sound then great may be something there for you, if you find that it does not stand up to your realist instincts and fails, let us know, many of us would be interested in he who has shown Panatukan to be only a looks pretty art, lol.

Not a challenge mind you, if you doubt it, you go find out for yourself, that way you take no-ones biased opinion but your own from experience, not just from that vid looked too pretty.

There are practitioners who demo much more realisticly (Which I have respect for) while still being as safe as possible to be true to the art. Example again, Muay Thai or Bama Lethwei Kickboxers, even when demoing an instructor says throw a low leg kick and he does not respond, THUMP! he takes a kick. Usually though that deliberate kick is just what the instructor wants to show how a leg check or another counter works.

Just remember, some do this compliant demo for ego reasons, but not all arts are as compliant as a feeder may be. With a compliant feeder I can make anything look effective and many students are compliant to ensure they engraciate themselves to the ego of their instructor.

END RANT

 

[AriesKai]

Many drills for skill and instruction are to profile the techniques for others to learn. Even the cleanest skills of a Pro Boxer will train & demo well, but the fight itself is a live animal that can get ugly as well as dangerous and we do not invite it into our demos for the sake of instruction and learning. A demos is a demo, not a real fight and yes some demos service someones ego more than the art itself.

It is not always about the pure level of combat speed, combat power and combat intent for demos, EXAMPLE: my opponent throws a punch (So feeder throws punch as instructed for teaching purposes) and Instructor destroys feeder like a live situation to show it really works, this should never happen, you lose students/friends like that.

Many videoclips for instruction are set for the instruction of insight, not just bang away for real with no understanding of technique and principle. Thats what backyard wrestling leagues are for, lol.

I do agree that many vids for instruction are done w/ a compliant feeder for the sake of learning and to keep the feeder & demo'r from hurting each other when the communication of insight & tech etc... is much more important. I have seen demos of FMA, Thai Arts, Shooto, Jun Fan JKD, Bando you name it and they have a certain level of compliance from the feeder for just that reason, so you can see and learn. Yes , for some it is an ego thing, watch me pull of this cool stuff, aren't I great?! LOL.

I would hate to work w/ an instructor who says here is your street self defense, throw a punch and he cracks my skull w/ a beer bottle. REAL & EFFECTIVE, but un-neccesary. you see?

I have had issue w/ this before w/ some people simply trying to profile themselves rather than an arts insight. Feeder throws compliant technique and demo'r throws a mean and hard counter hurting feeders limbs, locking him into a seriously harmfull submission thinking how much of a bad$$$ he is showing himself to be when the feeder gave himself to the demo'r for the sake of others learning. This is the instructors egoism issue , not the arts issue. Any art can be seen doing this, Boxing coaches will demo skill very much like this for instruction & understanding, Would you doubt the effectiveness of Boxing because someones vid clip looked too staged for the cool factor? lol

Do not judge an art by the profiling of a feeder & demo'r by its vid clip, these are usually for the sake of seeing segmented moments in time so we can learn to understand what is being applied.

Cut loose every drill and training partners and friends get hurt, train safe and build up to the feeder throwing more deliberate, more combative and even using follow-ups if the demo'r screws up to show the consequences of mistakes in those situations.

In the past demoing Silat w/ my instructor, he had me throw a punch and a kick he was to counter, as he worked his counter I followed up w/ an extra punch after the too initial shots, which he just continued and said see, if he follows with another punch we still parry and sapu the foot to a takedown. This is one thing my instructor liked about using me as a feeder, I helped show how live counters can be and if i could somewhat safely add to the aliveness of a demo all the better, and show how serious consequences can be there if you foul up.

Demos are demos, just that simple, if you see a demo and think that feeder was just giving him the punch = RIGHT, as a feeder you must trust the demo'r to show principle etc... and not destroy you and vice versa, you must trust the feeder will not fire off a killer jab trying to knock you out each set when you are simply instructing an entry or what have you.


But I Don't Want To See A Demo, I Wanna See The Real Thing, lol. Then go to the alley behind Tic Toc Liquors (Insert rough neighborhood here) and wait, you may winde up in the fun too, lol. Now thats real, but we do not go there (ANYMORE, LOL).

AriesKai, if you are a realist as you say, and If you do not feel that Panatukan is effective and is an empty looks pretty cool compliant art, go to where they train and ask for the real deal, they will likely abliege you, lol.

If you find it sound then great may be something there for you, if you find that it does not stand up to your realist instincts and fails, let us know, many of us would be interested in he who has shown Panatukan to be only a looks pretty art, lol.

Not a challenge mind you, if you doubt it, you go find out for yourself, that way you take no-ones biased opinion but your own from experience, not just from that vid looked too pretty.

There are practitioners who demo much more realisticly (Which I have respect for) while still being as safe as possible to be true to the art. Example again, Muay Thai or Bama Lethwei Kickboxers, even when demoing an instructor says throw a low leg kick and he does not respond, THUMP! he takes a kick. Usually though that deliberate kick is just what the instructor wants to show how a leg check or another counter works.

Just remember, some do this compliant demo for ego reasons, but not all arts are as compliant as a feeder may be. With a compliant feeder I can make anything look effective and many students are compliant to ensure they engraciate themselves to the ego of their instructor.

END RANT

Ah, looks like you're using my own words against me in an attempt to start a "flaming game". Sorry, I don't fall for troll'ing, if that's what you're trying to do.

I agree that what you're saying is true about demo'ing, but then again, I disagree with you on something else and that is..
If the training is not ALIVE as it would be in the street, if you don't train the same way that you fight, that "uber-super-awesome" technique that you practiced is pathetically useless.

Perhaps that's what the drills are for.

Just my point of view based on my 16+ years of experience.

RANT OVER.

My real, relavent question was:

Is it truly a 'street-effective' fighting style that can be used in self defense?

In the essence that it looks very, very cool, but is anyone actually using it?
That's it.

 

[AriesKai]

By the way.. If I don't see it in use, thenmy money isn't buying it.

The one thing that I have put time and investment in, is many years of traditional JuJitsu (which also has great joint and bone destruction techniques as well, that can actually be applied to real ALIVE training without having to use "drills"). I've also spent plenty of time in BJJ, Judo, Kali (another FMA), Karate, Kenpo, Muay Thai, San Shou, Shaolin Kung Fu, Sambo, and a few other arts and practices.


Perhaps even the best "Panantukanoka" won't suffice in a street encounter with someone who has a much larger arsenal in attacks whether offensive or defensive.

Again, The Real Question Is:

Is it really street effective, and who here is using it?





Best Regards, Friendly Guy From Maryland

Aries Kai

 

[jks9199]

Ah, looks like you're using my own words against me in an attempt to start a "flaming game". Sorry, I don't fall for troll'ing, if that's what you're trying to do.

I agree that what you're saying is true about demo'ing, but then again, I disagree with you on something else and that is..
If the training is not ALIVE as it would be in the street, if you don't train the same way that you fight, that "uber-super-awesome" technique that you practiced is pathetically useless.

Perhaps that's what the drills are for.

Just my point of view based on my 16+ years of experience.

RANT OVER.

My real, relavent question was:



In the essence that it looks very, very cool, but is anyone actually using it?
That's it.

Let me refer you to Rory Miller's book, Meditations on Violence. Pay particular attention to the chapter about the flaw in the exercise...

Any training contains inherent flaws, or we run out of training partners and playmates kind of fast. What you need to do is be aware of the particular flaw in a particular exercise. If I'm demoing something, for example, I need my assistant to attack in a particular way, or I can't make the point I'm after. No problem, so long as I know that it wasn't done in a really real manner that time...

 

[AriesKai]

Let me refer you to Rory Miller's book, Meditations on Violence. Pay particular attention to the chapter about the flaw in the exercise...

Any training contains inherent flaws, or we run out of training partners and playmates kind of fast. What you need to do is be aware of the particular flaw in a particular exercise. If I'm demoing something, for example, I need my assistant to attack in a particular way, or I can't make the point I'm after. No problem, so long as I know that it wasn't done in a really real manner that time...

I see...
I'm not of a 'violent nature' but I do believe in 'violence of action'.
I agree with what you're saying though...
As long as I can see that it works alive then that's all I really care about.
If I can learn it and apply it as fast as combat happens.. then i'm getting good instruction.
I don't agree that destroying friends and/or training partners is a good thing either!

 

[jks9199]

I see...
I'm not of a 'violent nature' but I do believe in 'violence of action'.
I agree with what you're saying though...
As long as I can see that it works alive then that's all I really care about.
If I can learn it and apply it as fast as combat happens.. then i'm getting good instruction.
I don't agree that destroying friends and/or training partners is a good thing either!

Read the book and get some life experience. You're 21. I'd add On Combat and On Killing by David Grossman, The Gift of Fear by Gavin Debecker, and some others you'll find in the indexes/bibliographies/further reading sections of those books.

Your martial arts experience is, by definition, largely in youth programs. These can be solid training -- but you quite clearly have little real experience with violence. Perhaps you're familiar with the parable of the blind men describing the elephant? Rory Miller compares the unicorn to the rhino to talk about this issue, as well.

 

[MJS]

Ah, looks like you're using my own words against me in an attempt to start a "flaming game". Sorry, I don't fall for troll'ing, if that's what you're trying to do.

I agree that what you're saying is true about demo'ing, but then again, I disagree with you on something else and that is..
If the training is not ALIVE as it would be in the street, if you don't train the same way that you fight, that "uber-super-awesome" technique that you practiced is pathetically useless.

Perhaps that's what the drills are for.

Just my point of view based on my 16+ years of experience.

RANT OVER.

My real, relavent question was:



In the essence that it looks very, very cool, but is anyone actually using it?
That's it.

By the way.. If I don't see it in use, thenmy money isn't buying it.

The one thing that I have put time and investment in, is many years of traditional JuJitsu (which also has great joint and bone destruction techniques as well, that can actually be applied to real ALIVE training without having to use "drills"). I've also spent plenty of time in BJJ, Judo, Kali (another FMA), Karate, Kenpo, Muay Thai, San Shou, Shaolin Kung Fu, Sambo, and a few other arts and practices.


Perhaps even the best "Panantukanoka" won't suffice in a street encounter with someone who has a much larger arsenal in attacks whether offensive or defensive.

Again, The Real Question Is:

Is it really street effective, and who here is using it?





Best Regards, Friendly Guy From Maryland

Aries Kai

Sir,

I dont think Jimi was using your words against you. That is the way you're reading into them. Actually, I said the same thing, regarding drills that're shown on clips, and how things are really used. I also find it interesting that you keep talking about your 16+yrs of training, but you start so many threads asking about street effectiveness. If you havent figured it out by now sir, I really think that you need to re-evaluate your training and what you want out of it.

Furthermore, as I stated, you need to drill and start off slow, before you jump in head first. Even BJJ does this. What I do when I train a tech. from any of the arts I do:

1) I start off slow, making sure that I understand all of the fine points of the drill.

2) Progressive speed is added, along with some resistance.

3) The attack pace is picked up, still keeping the resistance.

4) Random attacks are thrown, including resistance.

Is this stuff street effective? Yes. Again, as I said, it all comes down to how each person trains. This needs to be trained carefully because the training can easily turn into a sparring match, which is not what I'm looking to train at that time. So, my partner throws a punch as me with intent to hit me. I react. During my defense, he doesnt just stand there, but will move and resist, trying to counter what I'm doing.

In closing I'll say this...what I train is effective. The people who are my teachers, have used their training in real life situations. Mental health facilities, Police Officers and Corrections Officers....many of my current and past training partners and teachers work in these environments. I did too at one point in my career. We're all still here to talk about it, so something obviously worked.

 

[Jimi]

AriesKai, lol, my apologies for any percieved trolling or flaming issue you feel. Let me re-express my opinion if you will indulge me.

I never questioned your yrs in or arts of study and their practicality. You asked about practicality/effectiveness of Panatukan based on your opinion of what I believe to have been a compliant demo vid clip and i retorted w/ opinion.

I expressed my opinion and even noted my suggestion to seekout Panatukan (Kali) filipino emptyhand practioners to see their metal. I also noted it was no challenge to you, just showing how you could personally test it for its truth if you so choose then your opinion would be first hand and not opinion to demo (Ego based sometimes) Vid clips.

I do believe my opinion on demos for the sake of instruction was quite fair, and simply pointed out demos (Especially at seminars) are quite compliant for the sanctuary of the learning hall, dojo, kwoon, dojang etc.... So my re-expressed opinion is simple, demos are not fighting, but I do believe many arts have more combative/resistant drills to more closely simulate combat speed, pressure, intent etc... Even sparring so I agree that the more real the drill the more real the skill. I hope we can agree on that.

Just my opinion after 29yrs + training
Just my opinion after 29yrs + experience, lol, couldnt help myself

Asking how effective an art is relative to a perceived compliant demo is more relative to the practitioners real fight experiance, yrs in training, real skills etc...and other factors that determine if skills or a person will survive real violence than the realistcness of the demo.

I will look at it this way, How effective is Panatukan in real violence?

Kali/Panatukan skills have been killing in the Phillipines for many many years. Hows that for a track record?

How effective is Krabi Krabong in real violence?

Krabi Krabong killed many many in wars against Old Burma. Hows that for a track record? lol.

How effective is European Fencing etc... in real violence?

Look at French, Italian, Spainish, English you name it , war history to see many deaths by sword & muskette etc...? track record

How effective is Bushido in real violence?

Many many heads/lives taken by Katana etc... in Japan as well as Okinawa. track record.

To judge any of these arts by a compliant vid clip is doing that art an injustice without the understanding that demos are instruction safe of the live beast that is a real fight and sparring, full contact stick fighting, Full Contact Kickboxing MMA etc... though are sporting aspects of a real fight that come as closely as you can for the most part safely to near real STREET violence without damned near complete disregard for training partner safety.

I hope you see my point. All of these arts can kill you {And I dont mean just you AriesKai} or us (Depending on situation, practioner, intent and all that stuff that makes a real violent fight a dice roll) so a compliant vid clip is no true measure of how good or bad an art may be.

I do agree that many demos are showing many skills that could not be really pulled off in the heat of live serious violent combat/defense, and many of these demos serve the ego much more than actual pure survival skills. So understand that i am not standing up for all showy vid clips of Panatukan or other arts declaring it all combative and effective for life & death. Said it more that once Demos are Demos.

Again I hope I am understood and my reply has no intention of being trollish or flaming game etc... Simply after your response i felt I should clarify. Have a great Holiday season everyone, be safe. Peace

Just my opinion after 29yrs of experience, couldnt help myself, lol