Fighting for the rest of us

[FearlessFreep]

Would you die or accept serious injury if you thought that by doing so that others, whom you do not know, would be safer?

There's a follow up to this coming but I just want to see what the thoughts are

 

[bluekey88]

yes.

 

[newGuy12]

I can't say because I have never been in that position. I hope so, though.

 

[KenpoTex]

In some circumstances, yes. (waiting for the rest of the question)

 

[Sukerkin]

It is hard to say because it depends on 'the others' and the situation.

Assuming violent affray, a group of chavs being assailed by another group of chavs I'd be more than willing to leave to get on with it.

Despite my being Agnostic, a group of Buddhists, Quakers, Catholic Nuns, Amish or other pacifists would certainly garner my assistance, probably even if it wouldn't do the slightest good in the end.

It does occur to me that their moral philosophy would probably not thank me for using violence on their behalf, so I would try passive methods first.

In non-confrontational situations, a human in travails merits our assistance as best as we can offer. The danger I would face would depend, I think, very much on how much time I had to think about it - the longer to get scared I had, the more likely I would be to avoid injury to myself.

Of course that is speculative as I haven't had to do much more than strain a few muscles and get a few cuts when I held a car up long enough for my mate to get from underneath it when one of the jacks failed.

 

[allenjp]

I hope that I would always have the fortitude to help someone in trouble, no matter what the risks...I can only hope.

 

[Nolerama]

Complete strangers in a group? No way.

I did not choose to take an oath to protect others that I do not know.

I do not get paid to protect people I do not know.

By protecting people that I don't know would mean that I wouldn't be protecting the people close to me.

But then again, if I saw some little kid walking into oncoming traffic, I'd probably try to save the kid from possible death. Or if I saw someone drowning, I'd like to think I'd help that person out. Probably.

But it's a fantasy, and I draw a line between my fantasies and realities.

It's a pleasant thought: that inside all of us, we're heroes. I read comic books too and wish I had the fortitude and ability that some heroes have. I might be capable of saving a life, but the situation would have to demand it, and in that sense, I won't agree to offering up my well-being for a perfect stranger without ever having been in that situation before.

I'll tell you if I save someone, or let that person die and feel guilty about it.

 

[FearlessFreep]

OK, hopefully got some thinking....

Now, a lot of what I will say next, or rather the implications for yourself on what I would say next are based on a lot of percentages that I don't know.

If you were to be mugged/robbed... if you go along with what the assailant wants (giving them your money, etc...)
What are the odds you will be seriously injured anyway?
What are the odds you would be killed anyway?

If you were to fight back...
What are the odds you would be seriously injured?
What are the odds you would be killed?
What are the odds you would injure your assailant?
What are the odds you would kill your assailant?

For those who study martial arts as a means of self-defense (up to and including firearms) I would think those odds would be far different then for those who don't. I would hope so anyway (otherwise that's a lot of class time wasted : )

OK, I'm assuming most people are pretty rational, at least when it comes to risk/reward. I'm assuming criminals are similar.

If the advice and the mindset in dealing with an attacker is to give them what they want in hopes that you will be spared any violence, then the risk to a criminal is very minor.

At what point in raising that risk, does the risk become a deterrent? If more people fought back on a regular basis, does the action eventually become not worth the risk?

Now taken as an individual, this is a rather suicidal train of thinking into action. If I fight back rather than acquiesce, I get hurt or killed. We often talk about the fact that it's not worth the twenty bucks or whatever to get killed over, and on individual basis of a man with a wife and kids, I totally agree.

However... how about as a member of a community?

That brings back the original question...

Would I be willing to fight back, possibly dying, knowing that you would also be willing to fight back, possibly dying, knowing that by our actions, we have made it so dangerous to the assailant that he's either been killed himself or at least given up (or possibly been caught because now the seriousness of his crimes his a lot higher, garnering more focus from LE)

Or in short, my willingness to fight back and risk my own life may cost me my life, but may save someone else's down the road.

Would I do that?

... and that's why I think a lot of it would depend on those odds. If the odds of being killed in an attack are very high, even if I hand over my wallet. It may be worth it to fight. If the odds of dying if I fought back are very high but the odds of surviving very low, then it's not worth it even in the long run.

Anyway, just trying to think not as an individual martial artist but where does being a martial artist place me in the community of people around me, and what am I willing to do for their sake

 

[Sukerkin]

If the advice and the mindset in dealing with an attacker is to give them what they want in hopes that you will be spared any violence, then the risk to a criminal is very minor.

At what point in raising that risk, does the risk become a deterrent? If more people fought back on a regular basis, does the action eventually become not worth the risk?

Now taken as an individual, this is a rather suicidal train of thinking into action. If I fight back rather than acquiesce, I get hurt or killed. We often talk about the fact that it's not worth the twenty bucks or whatever to get killed over, and on individual basis of a man with a wife and kids, I totally agree.

However... how about as a member of a community?

Oddly enough, this is exactly the train of thought I was having about another thread where one of our youthful members got into a tight spot.

 

[terryl965]

I would hope so, it is about helping other before ourself or that is what the good book says.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Possibly. (Also waiting for the rest of the situation).

 

[Kacey]

I cannot say; there are too many situational variables involved. I would hope that I would do the most helpful thing for the greatest number of people - but unless presented with such a situation, I cannot say how I would react in the moment.

 

[MJS]

Would you die or accept serious injury if you thought that by doing so that others, whom you do not know, would be safer?

There's a follow up to this coming but I just want to see what the thoughts are

Regarding the first part of your question...no. However, I would not just turn a blind eye. I would call the police and give them a detailed description of whats happening.

OK, hopefully got some thinking....

Now, a lot of what I will say next, or rather the implications for yourself on what I would say next are based on a lot of percentages that I don't know.

If you were to be mugged/robbed... if you go along with what the assailant wants (giving them your money, etc...)
What are the odds you will be seriously injured anyway?
What are the odds you would be killed anyway?

I'll answer all of these together seeing that they sort of go hand in hand. There is a very good chance that even if we comply, we'll get hurt or killed, so while the common sense mentality would be to hand over your goods and comply, whats to say that once that happens, we still won't get shot or stabbed? If I have a good chance of that happening, why not fight for whats yours?

If you were to fight back...
What are the odds you would be seriously injured?
What are the odds you would be killed?
What are the odds you would injure your assailant?
What are the odds you would kill your assailant?

1 & 2: See my above comments

3: I'm assuming the 'talking phase' has not worked, so if thats the case, I'd use as much force needed to end the situation.

4: I've never killed anyone and hopefully that day never comes. But, if I'm faced with deadly force and I've exhausted all other options, and its a matter of him or me, I'm going to do my best to make sure its me that comes out on top.

For those who study martial arts as a means of self-defense (up to and including firearms) I would think those odds would be far different then for those who don't. I would hope so anyway (otherwise that's a lot of class time wasted : )

OK, I'm assuming most people are pretty rational, at least when it comes to risk/reward. I'm assuming criminals are similar.

If the advice and the mindset in dealing with an attacker is to give them what they want in hopes that you will be spared any violence, then the risk to a criminal is very minor.

At what point in raising that risk, does the risk become a deterrent? If more people fought back on a regular basis, does the action eventually become not worth the risk?

Now taken as an individual, this is a rather suicidal train of thinking into action. If I fight back rather than acquiesce, I get hurt or killed. We often talk about the fact that it's not worth the twenty bucks or whatever to get killed over, and on individual basis of a man with a wife and kids, I totally agree.

However... how about as a member of a community?

That brings back the original question...

Would I be willing to fight back, possibly dying, knowing that you would also be willing to fight back, possibly dying, knowing that by our actions, we have made it so dangerous to the assailant that he's either been killed himself or at least given up (or possibly been caught because now the seriousness of his crimes his a lot higher, garnering more focus from LE)

Or in short, my willingness to fight back and risk my own life may cost me my life, but may save someone else's down the road.

Would I do that?

... and that's why I think a lot of it would depend on those odds. If the odds of being killed in an attack are very high, even if I hand over my wallet. It may be worth it to fight. If the odds of dying if I fought back are very high but the odds of surviving very low, then it's not worth it even in the long run.

Anyway, just trying to think not as an individual martial artist but where does being a martial artist place me in the community of people around me, and what am I willing to do for their sake

I don't go looking for trouble. I train primarily for SD reasons. IMHO, if someone is attempting to cause me or a loved one physical harm, I feel that I'm well within my rights to defend myself. I'll always attempt to talk my way out of any situation, but in the event that does not work, I can't stand by and be a punching bag, let someone take my car, hurt my wife, etc. To think that we would not get hurt is foolish. As I said above, there is nothing, IMO, to ensure that if we comply, we won't get hurt. Its a 50/50 chance. I'm not willing to take those odds. I'll deal with the consequences later.

Mike

 

[Deaf Smith]

I can't say because I have never been in that position. I hope so, though.

I agree. Peter told Christ he would die for him. It took the Cock three times to crow before Peter realized he was wrong. And I ain't Peter.

Deaf

 

[Rich Parsons]

Would you die or accept serious injury if you thought that by doing so that others, whom you do not know, would be safer?

There's a follow up to this coming but I just want to see what the thoughts are

Been there done that. Many examples from my past.

I limit it more now to when there is a serious situation versus a situation that might be or could be a serious one.

 

[thetruth]

Me and 2 mates jumped in to protect 1 kid being ganged up on by about 15 -20 other 15 or 16 year olds. Granted they were young but knives are prevalent and we didn't know what they had. I didn't consider the consequences before I jumped in but I think it's easier that way.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[GradualProgression]

Me and 2 mates jumped in to protect 1 kid being ganged up on by about 15 -20 other 15 or 16 year olds. Granted they were young but knives are prevalent and we didn't know what they had. I didn't consider the consequences before I jumped in but I think it's easier that way.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

Thats crazy