Fencing and Escrima.

[arnisador]

Thread on Espada Y Daga Drills.

Filipino sword and dagger seems very different to me from European sword and dagger systems. Of course, a bolo and a rapier are very different swords!

 

[moromoro]

Speaking of fencing and escrima, I note that escrime is the French term for fencing.


Now that's wild! Hmm, has there ever been a French takeover
of the Phillipines?


NO, escrima or eskrima in bisaya is a spanish word so the similarities are in the spanish word escrima and the french escrime
there is notthing to do with the french language and a French takeover because there was no such takeover........

 

[moromoro]

also we have a great deal to thank our spanish forefathers, the spanish influnced us a great deal culturally, but in the martial arts little is known of how deep this influence took place we have kept many spanish terms in our martial arts.

Also yes pinuti y daga (espada y daga) is very different from espada y daga of the spanish school, but i guess we will never truly know because the spanish school is no more more reseach needs to be conducted on the spanish school....

 

[westernwarrior]

I've heard a few discussions on this subject. But I would like to point out that the people who invaded and occupied the philippines would be soldiers. Soldiers did not fight like nobles duelled. So the fencing reproduced in manuals of the time and passed down into modern fencing would not be like that of the Spanish soldiers of the time. Our lack of knowledge about soldeiry training and combat at the time severly limits how much comparison we can do,

 

[moromoro]

But I would like to point out that the people who invaded and occupied the philippines would be soldiers. Soldiers did not fight like nobles duelled.

not entirely true you have based this statement with little fact.

there were more civilians migrate and settled in the philippines then soldiers, people from spain, which most of todays filipino's can trace there ancestry to, portugal, mexico and south america as well as other country's such as france and of course later on from the U.S.
All of these nations have helped mould the philippines and the filipino people to what we are today....


ALSO in the times of the Spanish rule and after there where very wealthy Land owners or the DON's who where considered Nobles these nobles would have lived in the lap of luxury and would have mimicked life in spain. infact Jose Rizal practiced EUROPEAN FENCING as what most of the higher class in europe at the time did also...
the bottom line is we are not sure the spanish school was know as the mistical school eskrima also is mystical and belief in the supernatural exist till this day all intertwined in our national religion the roman catholic church....maybe this was influenced by the spanish.....
Al so if you dont look at the "1-12 eskrima systems" those with a sylabus......you can see slight similarities with the principles of the old manuals, look at illustrisimo, MMOH, BEAE, and other systems in the philippines without a sylabus and you can see some similarities..........


terry

 

[westernwarrior]

I in no way meant to imply that the Spanish did not have an impact on life in the Phillipines. I meant that I did not think that the martial culture of nobles would be closely linked to the FMAs. Far more likely the martial knowledge of soldiers. But I am definately not an expert of Phillipino cultre, so you could correct me on that.
But soldiers would not fight in the same way. In the 16th century, when the spanish came to the Phillipines, the longsword and rapier were both taught by fencing masters in Europe. The longsword being the three foot long pience of steel wielded in two hands and often used for strong slashes. Compared to the rapier, which was usually much more concerned with the thrust, which was considered more deadly. The tactics used to employ these weapons is of course quite different. In later centuries, we see fencing masters concentraing more on the duelling weapons of the rapier and then smallsword. Neither of these weapons was used in battle, being near useless against armor. I'm drawing all of this from fencing manuals of the time, many of which can be seen at http://www.aemma.org/library_top.htm
And the problem I see once again is there isn't a lot of documentation as to how the Spanish soldiers fought in these times. We can assume they used the same firearms, polearms, and sabers that other Europeans used, but I actually don't know that.
It's not that there aren't similarities between spanish duelling and FMAs, but I think it would be more because of the similarities any blade art shares with others. It's just sound martial principles.

 

[moromoro]

I'm drawing all of this from fencing manuals of the time, many of which can be seen at http://www.aemma.org/library_top.htm

also william wilsons page and theHaca now thearma

thehaca.com

there are plenty of manuals..
yes i have had an interest in these manuals since 1999

"I meant that I did not think that the martial culture of nobles would be closely linked to the FMAs. Far more likely the martial knowledge of soldiers. But I am definately not an expert of Phillipino cultre, so you could correct me on that."

i personally think that the soldiers where influenced by the nobles when it came to the sword.

but i also know that many of the natives at the time in the Philippines thought of the way the soldiers fought with their weapons (apart from musket) as beign inferior to their way...

we should respect eskrima as beign a native art of the philippines and maybe it was influenced from the native arts and also our spanish forefathers and other immigrants from other countrys who have immigrated to the P.I during the spanish period.....it will always be speculations of its true origings because the way it is today it is neither entirely native nor entirely spanish it was almost 100% developed during the spanish period..

 

[westernwarrior]

we should respect eskrima as beign a native art of the philippines and maybe it was influenced from the native arts and also our spanish forefathers and other immigrants from other countrys who have immigrated to the P.I during the spanish period

And at that, I can say I completely agree.

 

[arnisador]

An article in the current (May 2003) issue of Budo International discusses the Italian system of Nova Scrimia, which appears to be a fencing system but they are shown practicing with sticks as well as with rapiers. They mention that, in reconstructing the historical system, they made use of the fact that the Spanish version of it had been partially preserved in Southeast Asia.

 

[moromoro]

Nova Scrimia

they research many of the old stick fighting manuals of europe from the early 20th century and also the mid to late 19th century's

 

[arnisador]

Yes, they talked a lot about researching from old manuals. They now have videos out I gather--the magazine only showcases the people who have new videos out.

 

[moromoro]

id like to see it

theres a web site called

savateaustralia.com

this has old manuals on the walking stick but from what i have been told there are hundreds of old stick fighting manuals

savateaustralia also have a video i have it its ok
a lot of the strikes they use are abanico strikes

 

[westernwarrior]

There are indeed hundreds of stickfighting styles. There is a Yahoo! mailing group called "Eurostick" or something like that which is filled with people who study and research such styles. I can't find the link to that specific one, but here are some links to information on some specific ones
http://home.dbio.uevora.pt/~oliveira/Jogo_Pau/J_Pau.htm
a portugese stick fighting
http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_Coetzee_0902.htm
zulu stick fighting
http://ahfaa.org/irishgangs.htm
irish stick fighting
http://www.the-exiles.org/manual/lang/lang.htm
By an English officer who lived in India
I'm trying to find my other source, but in Europe sword-like sticks called "wasters" were used in training for hundreds of years.

 

[moromoro]

thamks for that i already have those sources,
i was wondering if you have found any other in particular the italian stick fighting method which NOVA use as their base?

 

[twinkletoes]

I have heard it suggested that before the spanish, Filipino systems did not include the numbered striking systems. I have no idea if this is correct, but I've heard it.

Some of the striking and blocking styles are fairly similar between some filipino and sabre fencing systems.

On the other hand, both arts utilize some "self-evident" truths about weapons usage, like an emphasis on striking with the farthest portion of the weapon. It would seem silly to call this something that was shared, rather than something that was simultaneously developed because of its effectiveness.

This kind of thing makes it hard to say what things have transferred from one art to another and what things are indigenous to each style.

~TT

 

[Nightingale]

interesting discussion!

 

[arnisador]

Thread moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Mark Lynn]

Interesting thread

In volume 3 #2 1994, in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts there is an article by Mark Wiley entitled "The Evolution & Etymology of a Filipino Fencing Form"

He covers several things that have been discussed here.

Mark

 

[Tapps]

2 cents ....

Very interesting.

I did some SCA fencing for a while and found that the use of the live hand to parry is very similar.

this is NOT true with classical or college fencing (where they keep the off hand behind them) it is in fact illegal under those rules to use the off hand.

I'm not saying the FM Arts got this from fencing only that my Modern Arnis training translated very well to this type of combat

 

[Sun_Helmet]

Originally posted by arnisador
An article in the current (May 2003) issue of Budo International discusses the Italian system of Nova Scrimia, which appears to be a fencing system but they are shown practicing with sticks as well as with rapiers. They mention that, in reconstructing the historical system, they made use of the fact that the Spanish version of it had been partially preserved in Southeast Asia.

Would like to read more details on this. The Spanish wrote of Filipinos possessing sticks and weaponry well before they held any of the northern portions of the islands.

I'd also like to find out if the Italian weaponwork also influenced the Spaniards - during the 1500's when they battled one another.

During this time of course, the European methods of war involved cavalry, artillery, firearms and the pike /lance formations. Minimal swordplay were drilled by infantry, and was reserved for those on horseback (cavalry).

Most likely the soldiers who fought in the Philippine islands were trained as infantry men with use of the firearm and pike. They did not use much cavalry on the islands. Records show that Spanish requests for weapons were predominantly for their firearms.

As per numbering systems. The Filipinos had a numbering system well before the Spaniards arrived. It would not be inconceivable for a bartering, trade culture like the Philippines to use numbering in their fighting methods. As far as similarities with any of the numbering - taking into account the vital areas of the body and the natural flow of combat - there's bound to be cross over. I'd surmise that the Spanish practice of historical omission, and the Filipino's penchant for blending their culture with outside influences- it's probably a bit of both rather than a total lack of any numbering system.

--Rafael--
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