Felons In The Military

[MJS]

Thoughts?
http://www.courant.com/news/nationworld/hc-felons0422.artapr22,0,2214707.story

WASHINGTON — - The military is looking for a few good ... felons?

Under pressure to meet combat needs, the Army and Marine Corps brought in significantly more recruits with felony convictions last year, including some with manslaughter and sex crime convictions.

Data released by a congressional committee show the number of soldiers admitted to the Army with felony records jumped from 249 in 2006 to 511 in 2007.

And the number of Marines brought in with felonies rose from 208 to 350.

 

[Sukerkin]

That's a small percentage of recruits I would imagine? In the 'modern' age, tho', I think that it's probably not the greatest of ideas to have such individuals representing your country out in the wider world. Not because the poor souls might get killed but because of the likelyhood that they can do something that will besmirch the reputation of all soldiers who share their uniform.

Of course, in not so 'olden' times, we used to build entire armies out of the criminal and disadvantaged .

 

[MJS]

That's a small percentage of recruits I would imagine? In the 'modern' age I think that it's probably not the greatest of ideas to have such individuals representing your country out in the wider world. Not because the poor souls might get killed but because of the likelyhood that they can do something that will besmirch the reputation of all soldiers sho share their uniform.

Of course, in not so 'olden' times, we used to build entire armies out of the criminal and disadvantaged .

Well, that was pretty much my thinking as well. There was a thread here, I believe in the General section regarding gangs in the military or something of that nature.

Now, IMO, we have had quite a few cases of criminal activity in the military. Do we want to add more fuel to the fire by having people like this represent the military?

 

[terryl965]

I guess that is all we can get these days, nobody wants to serve so when in need look elsewhere. I personally do not like the ideal, but then again I do not have a say so.

 

[grydth]

Let's not forget that, for literally centuries, people have gone into military service after first having trouble in civilian life. You might find upon research that some of America's most renowned military heroes had a bit of a checkered prior life. John Paul Jones? Jim Bowie? I bet a Civil War buff could easily name a dozen more.... Springsteen's "Born in the USA" alludes to "got in a little hometown jam..." That wasn't just imagination.

I'd be inclined to more believe in the rehabilitation of a felon who earned the Silver Star than one who'd simply sat in Club Fed. Some ex cons are certainly unfit for military service, but many without records also do not belong in the Army.

Other countries have even fielded units of convicts, real life "Dirty Dozens" with varying results. Some have restored soldiers back to the military and society, but one SS unit under SS Oberfuhrer Dirlewanger committed crimes almost beyond belief for years on the Eastern Front.

As a prior poster has noted, though, the larger issue may be a drying up of recruits.

 

[Twin Fist]

plus, lets remember something.

the two kinds of felonies mentioned.

manslaughter, which is by definition the accidental killing of someone, and sex crimes, ...you can be convicted of a felony sex crime just for being a senior in high school and dating a freshman who puts out.....

this doesnt mean that they are allowing ANYONE in

 

[CoryKS]

Of course, in not so 'olden' times, we used to build entire armies out of the criminal and disadvantaged .

Armies? Hell, you used to build entire nations out of the criminal and disadvantaged! sorry, Steel Tiger

On-topic: I guess for me it would depend on the type of felony. And it probably comes as no surprise to know that there is already a pretty shady element within the armed forces as it is. I may not have known Marines who entered as felons, but I knew a few who exited as felons.

 

[Topeng]

We used to joke about some of the people we served with. "Go to jail or join the Navy" was the choice some told they had.
Not only have the rates of felons gone up but the Army has also lowered the required ASVAB score for entry.
I agree it would depend on the type of charge. Isn't writing a bad check a felony?
I hope that some of the bad seeds somehow find a way of getting it together through the military. I've served with a few that have done just that. I've also served with people who had clean records getting in and like CoryKS stated, got out as felons.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I know of at least one marine who back in the day was given the choice of "go to jail or join the marines." The up side is that he is now a great citizen, taxpayer, etc. and served admirably in the marines. It literally did change his life.

The down side is that truthfully we would like the highest possible candidates in our military at all positions. However that simply is not always possible. Still having said that we have at this point in time the finest military on the planet.

 

[Sukerkin]

Armies? Hell, you used to build entire nations out of the criminal and disadvantaged! sorry, Steel Tiger

True :blush:.

 

[Imua Kuntao]

We are using felons now because of clinton,he downsized our military in such a bad way we are now unable to do what we could of done, like end the war earlier. Please do not vote for another clinton.

 

[Grenadier]

Not all felons are alike. Some felonies are very minor, compared to others, and may have been brought on by justice not being served. I strongly doubt that we have hundreds of convicted murderers / repeated violent rapists, etc. in the ranks.

If anything, this line sheds some info:

For example, in several of the Marine sex crime cases, the offenders were teenagers involved in consensual sex with other underage teens.

In one Army case, a 13-year-old who threw a match into his school locker was charged with arson and had to receive a felony waiver six years later.

"Waivers are used judiciously and granted only after a thorough review," said a Pentagon spokesman, Lt. Col. Jonathan Withington.

On the flip side, if felons in the military continue down their criminal paths, they're going to find that military justice isn't nearly as forgiving as civilian justice.

 

[crushing]

We are using felons now because of clinton,he downsized our military in such a bad way we are now unable to do what we could of done, like end the war earlier. Please do not vote for another clinton.

The downsizing plan and implementation started before Clinton took office as we were supposed to start recognizing a 'peace dividend' after the fall of the Berlin Wall. The downsizing actually started with President G.H.W. Bush with Dick Cheney as Secretary of Defense.

In 1992 after returning from the first Iraq war I was in one of the Army companies that was downsized out of existence that was based at a military post that was being handed back over to the host nation. This was happening all across USAREUR before 1993.

 

[arnisador]

This is a small, albeit growing, number of exceptions. The presence of a few carefully vetted felons doesn't bother me as much as the fact that a need--a pressure--to do so exists.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Under pressure to meet combat needs, the Army and Marine Corps brought in significantly more recruits with felony convictions last year, including some with manslaughter and sex crime convictions.

Data released by a congressional committee show the number of soldiers admitted to the Army with felony records jumped from 249 in 2006 to 511 in 2007.

And the number of Marines brought in with felonies rose from 208 to 350.

Very very bad news. These are not people you want peacekeeping or even warfighting.

 

[newGuy12]

this doesnt mean that they are allowing ANYONE in

yet

 

[tellner]

By any standard we've stopped scraping the barrel and have kicked the bottom out of the sucker so that we can start digging.

Up until the Iraq invasion the US military accepted at most, what was it, 4% of recruits who scored in the lowest category in the Aptitude tests. Now it's over 20%. The percentage who are under waivers for drug use, gang affiliation and misdemeanor convictions is at record levels. The fraction with felony convictions is higher than at any point in my lifetime. And that's not including recent scandals about recruiters simply falsifying records so that people with disabilities like severe autism are considered "1-A".

Another recent scandal is covering up recruiting shortfalls by grabbing sailors and airmen out of the Navy and Air Force and assigning them as infantry or to Marine units. They don't have the training. They don't have the experience. But they're warm bodies who can carry rifles.

There's also been a very disturbing trend in staffing. Senior non-coms - the backbone of any military - are leaving the Service at historically high rates as are career officers. That's with "stop loss" which is Army for "You'll die in the traces."

Chimpy and "Swinging" Dick Cheney may well have succeeded in destroying the US military for a decade or more.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

By any standard we've stopped scraping the barrel and have kicked the bottom out of the sucker so that we can start digging.

Up until the Iraq invasion the US military accepted at most, what was it, 4% of recruits who scored in the lowest category in the Aptitude tests. Now it's over 20%. The percentage who are under waivers for drug use, gang affiliation and misdemeanor convictions is at record levels. The fraction with felony convictions is higher than at any point in my lifetime. And that's not including recent scandals about recruiters simply falsifying records so that people with disabilities like severe autism are considered "1-A".

Another recent scandal is covering up recruiting shortfalls by grabbing sailors and airmen out of the Navy and Air Force and assigning them as infantry or to Marine units. They don't have the training. They don't have the experience. But they're warm bodies who can carry rifles.

There's also been a very disturbing trend in staffing. Senior non-coms - the backbone of any military - are leaving the Service at historically high rates as are career officers. That's with "stop loss" which is Army for "You'll die in the traces."

Chimpy and "Swinging" Dick Cheney may well have succeeded in destroying the US military for a decade or more.

Yup.

Anytime a war breaks out in history, what's the first thing the generation of enlistment age is going to look at when deciding to enlist?

That's RI-iiiight!

They're gonna look at how the veterans of the LAST war were treated.

After this, even if we are ever gonna HAVE the money to make those uniforms and gear for those next 20-30 years, who in the hell do they think they're gonna con into filling 'em after "stop-loss"?

 

[tellner]

Oh, to the Anonymous Coward who just dinged me...

Did I get any facts wrong?
Nope.

Did I say soldiers, marines, airmen and sailors are evil?
Nope.

Are you upset because I'm not properly worshipful to your political heroes?
Yep.

 

[tellner]

We saw things like this after Vietnam.

Morale was low.
Standards declined.
Readiness suffered terribly.
It took quite a while and a metric butt-load of money to rebuild important parts of the US military.

By many standards we're worse off now. And our economy is weaker. We only have an Army because it still amuses Chinese bankers to lend us the money for one. According to the Pentagon's and GAO's own recently-released reports the US military is not currently capable of defending the United States.

This is very, very bad.