Chief Master, would you mind if I printed your post out and used it to explain to people who question what I do and why I do it? I have got to say the was probably the best response I have ever seen or heard in my life.
Thanks for the compliment Wade, and you may certainly print my post and use it if you think it will help. I'm glad it spoke to the issue for you in the same way that I see it.
It is so much better and clearer than me screaming " BECAUSE I FREAKING SAID SO, SO NOW DO IT YOU FREAKING DWIT". Uh, not that I actually would say that, uh, you know?
:lfao:
Not trying to be overly abrasive with my response, so I apologise in advance if it should come off as such........
Not at all, Brad. You seem to me to be polite and respectful when asserting your point of view and I appreciate that. I really enjoy these back and forth discussions we have here, and I believe others will benefit from hearing all sides. Some will agree with your point of view, and others with me!
If one should already belong to an organization that has just as much legitimate standing and members are just as knowledgeable and skilled, then the only thing of difference is the Olympic venue, then just what real value does a kukkiwon certificate actually hold?
I agree with your point that someone who is trained legitimately does not really need any other validation, but the Olympic venue is not the only other value of KKW. Get rid of Olympics completely, and I still feel there is a purpose and value to KKW. For one, having a certificate which comes from the Homeland or birth place of Taekwondo is meaningful to some Taekwondoists. If Korean certification ever reaches the pinnacle of proper credentials, as I believe it will, the KKW certificate will be viewed as a mutual link between all Taekwondo organizations.
No matter what your kwan or association, people will come to trust that the KKW requirements will never be compromised. Organizations may come and go. Founders and leaders die and their replacements are not always as credible as their predecessors. The Kukkiwon should stand the test of time, and never be vulnerable to shifts in politics, changes in leadership of national organizations, nor pressure from the whims of students and their parents. Saying that the Kukkiwon is not there yet, is being short-sighted. I believe it will be, and then it will prove to be of great value.
As for the "single source", well that will never happen, it really can't - the human nature syndrome always will be present.
You might be right on this point, Brad, but I certainly hope you will be wrong. I believe a "single source" of world wide credentials is necessary, but I also believe that all Kwanjang of every major organization should be allowed to be on a joint committee that has input on decisions of various aspects and applications of KKW certification in the future. This might never happen, but it would be beneficial to all concerned.
Last Fearner quote: "This "gold standard" of recognition has not yet reached its full potential for ensuring that those certified have met minimum standards, but I believe the concept must start somewhere, and the Kukkiwon was designed with that intent............ "
This is in direct contradiction to the first statement of other's "just as legit, knowledgeable and skilled".
Actually, it is not in contradiction. I know that there are currently organizations that offer legitimate training equal to or above KKW Dan requirements, and I do not want to insult any of them, nor attempt to diminish the value of their certifications. However, there are two key factors that I believe are beneficial to having a separate source of certification - not authority over the organizations, but verification that minimum standards are agreed upon by all the leaders of Taekwondo, and met by those who participate in issuing KKW certificates. First, the public, students, and instructors can get immediate verification as to the authentic, and proper training offered by a KKW backed organization. You know
your school is great, I know
my school is great, but the consumer does not know, and should have an independent source for checking this fact.
Secondly, organizations that run under arbitrary, independent leadership can fall victim to collapse, splits, internal disputes, and poor implementation of rules and regulations. If not today, then fifty or one hundred years from now. Corruption of individual instructors, schools and national organizations is much more likely to occur, and more difficult to correct if there is no one to double check their standards. With support from key people, the Kukkiwon should rise above all this and become the "gold standard" that all can rely on.
Last Fearner quote: "In my opinion, a Taekwondo education is as valuable (if not more so) as any college education........... "
:erg:
My statement here seems to baffle you. Perhaps you disagree? It most definitely depends on the instructor, and the full quantity and quality of training. I look at the change that occurs in people whom I have taught. I see people succeeding, even going on to get a college degree who would have never even attempted to do so before, or they would have quit part way through because they had no perseverance. I see students repairing relationships with family, friends, and spouses because of training, or gaining the strength and confidence to end an abusive relationship. I see students standing up to bullies, or having the courage to walk away from a fight.
I see people learning how to deal with adversity, strive toward goals, and how to achieve success in life. I have had students who have quit smoking, or improved their health and quality of life in many ways. I see people who have learned how to protect their life, and have even used the knowledge that I have taught them to fight back and save their life, and the lives of their loved ones. I know a college education has a value, but in my personal experience and professional opinion, no college education comes close to a genuine, life-altering, Martial Art education when it is taught correctly.
What in the world do you as an instructor have invested in a student?
:erg:
No offense to any other instructors out there who do things differently, but to me, this question spot-lights the difference between a Martial Art Instructor, and a person who learned a Martial Art curriculum and teaches that curriculum for pay.
What do I, as an instructor, have invested in a student??? My whole life. My blood, sweat and tears. My heart and my soul. I don't just teach words from a textbook. I don't just teach physical activities or how to master a skill. I don't just teach people how to fight. I take a chunk of clay. I knead it until my fingers are raw to the bone to get the imperfections out that might cause it to self-destruct later on. I slam that hunk of clay down on my potter's well, and lubricate it with blood and sweat - theirs and mine. Then, I apply pressure to all sides as I rotate the wheel beneath it, and bring that individual to a "center." When I feel the clay is ready, I begin to spread out the base to support the future levels and walls that I will build. I then begin to mold that person into a unique piece of artwork that represents everything that I am, that I have learned, and that this student could possibly become as an individual. I dig deep into the core of my being every single day to bring out the core of who this person really is. I cut away all of the negative attributes, and bring this student up to reach his or her full potential. Then, if this student has been receptive to my teaching, it becomes time to "fire" the clay and make it solid for life. From that point on, the beginning of its purpose is realized. Whatever substance is placed in the vessel will be held, and will not leak out, or destroy the integrity of the vessel. The vessel is ready for the rest of the knowledge it will receive in a life-time.
Does this sound too melodramatic to you? If so, too bad! Because this is the reality of what I do as a "Martial Art Instructor." Anything less would be a sham, or a poor imitation, in my opinion.
Your being paid for your time and knowledge right from the beginning. The fee's you charge should have all your costs, pro rated, included (rent, utilities, insurance and payroll)
If this were true, then my base tuition would be about $2,000.00 per month, per student, with all promotional tests and certificates being free. Other people report to a 9 - 5 job and earn yearly salaries of 40 to 50 thousand dollars or more. Calculate what it costs to run a decent school, and then ensure that I get a salary comparable to the amount of time I spend preparing lessons, teaching students, discussing problems after hours, taking them to tournaments, seminars, and other activities where I receive no additional compensation. Write me a check for my time and talents and see if you can squeeze that into a budget of $25.00 per month tuition. :mst:
Last Fearner quote: "Some people have no respect for the sacrifice a full time instructor makes. "
Again, what sacrifice's? You have opened up a business, just as many other's have done in many other endeavors.
Enough said on this subject.
You can have the only school in a 500 mile radius, but if you charge too much, it's unlikely that you'll retain enough people to remain open. (Note: Cost is relative to the area where one resides).
Cost is also relative to the value people place on what you offer. If they see it as a health club, fight club, sport activity, or hobby, then they will not make the sacrifice themselves to pay for what it is really worth. There are exceptions in some poverty stricken areas, but many people in most towns can afford the higher cost of quality training, but don't realize the value unless they have been involved in a good school for a few years. I can either lower the cost to meet the perceived value by the consumer, or I can go to an area where people already value what I offer. If I choose to teach in an area where people
would pay the higher price if they
could, then I can discount the program for lower income families, but I can insist that they make some personal sacrifices and commitments to show that they understand the value above and beyond what they are paying.
OK, so you have a certificate from a legit organization or your kwan and it's not accepted by another organization or kwan (happens all the time), so in essence your certificate is not worth the paper it's written on to these folks, and your assessment is that whatever instruction they received is also worthless............. Words just escape me! :idunno:
Simply because another school or organization does not accept your credentials does not mean it is worthless. Most any reputable organization will accept the certificates of another
reputable organization. I have had it happen many times. In any event, the purpose of the Kukkiwon certificate is supposed to put these issues to rest. The "my certificate is valuable, but yours is not" argument would be obsolete. Everyone would have their own organization's certificates, but anyone could get that certificate "backed" by a Kukkiwon Dan which would be accepted by any of the
reputable organizations. Only those who choose to not accept a Kukkiwon Certificate would be left out in the cold by going it alone - - their choice!
It should be noted that there is a difference between "organizations" and the "Kukkiwon certification board." They are not comparable. Organizations are groups run by head masters who teach a curriculum from white belt on up, and offer certificates to acknowledge the accomplishments of each stage. While the "Kukkiwon" itself can be viewed as a national academy in Korea, issuing a "Kukkiwon Dan Certificate" to those outside of Korea is merely a confirmation that certain minimum standards have been met. Organizations can do that without any unified verification from Korea, but there is no proof to the unsuspecting public who does not know a Dojang from a Doughnut.
I disagree............The receipt is your proof that you payed for the item, it's given to you when you pay the purchase price of the item. The certificate is also your proof that you paid for your training, but unlike the store receipt, you must pay an additional charge for this piece of paper.
Pay me all the money in the world you want, you are still not getting a Dan Certificate for what you pay me. The certificate is not for sale, and is not what is being purchased. You are paying for the opportunity to test, but the cost is not just for that day, if it were then it would be the nominal fees that you suggest. You are crossing a threshold. You are receiving an honor to even be recommended to be promoted to Black Belt (or subsequent degrees).
If I bring a student to the threshold, and give my blessings to test, the student turns to me and says thank you, teacher, for your years of guidance, love, and personal sacrifice. What if I say to them, "You have paid me for class times, but you should know that you could not possibly pay enough to equal the value of everything that I have shared with you. I want you to climb one last hurdle," or "vacuum the dojang one more time," or "offer to me something of value that shows your understanding of what I have done to get you here"? If they reach in their pocket and hand me the prize they just got out of a cracker jack box, we might be meeting another day for their test. Not because of my greed, but because their gesture indicates they have not understood the value of what I have done for them.
I will grant you that other people think differently about this. However, I know that the cost of tuition never compares to the value of a proper Martial Art education. A Black Belt test fee is simply the final installment on what has transpired up to that point, and still it falls short. Sure, all of these funds could be charged up front, but not many would even begin their training if it were done this way. As it is, some complain - but oddly enough, not any of the Black Belt candidates that I have encountered. Sometimes you can get something of value for nothing, or real cheap, but not often.
Personally, I like to see students work hard to earn the money to pay for training. It helps them to realize the high value of what they have learned. Give it to them cheap, and they often take it for granted, and view it as "cheap." Pay a thousand dollars for a car, and you will take good care of it. Pay ten thousand dollars for a car, and you will take
real good care of it. Pay one hundred thousand dollars for a car ...... and that car had better be worth it! Take a car valued at one hundred thousand dollars, and sell it to a teenager for 100 bucks, and see how soon he wrecks it.
CM D.J. Eisenhart