Favourite Haymaker Defence.
- Thread starter myusername
- Start date
Ummm.... it take almost no time at all to break a joint when a pin or lock has been established with appropriate leverage. A single hard movement of the arm taking less than a second will rupture the joint possibly permanently. What leads you to believe you'd be able to do what you describe in the fraction of a second that the joint break would take? Do you think that you're faster enough than Myusername that you could do all that in the second it would take him to carry out the break he described? Why would you, or more generally, the assailant's hypothetical backup, think that?
Personally, I'd say it Myusrn's plan is probably the best the defender could do, under the circumstances.
championmarius
Yellow Belt
Well, I mean if he's gonna gift wrap it for me, then I guess all I can do is reciprocate by sending him for a little flight... ala Morph4me style.
Or give 'em a good pop in the ol' gob to remind that an object traveling along a straight line is much faster... kinda simplistic, but hey. why complicate things. Oh, if yer gonna get all fussy, raise the shoulder and duck yer noodle... let the slobberknocker glance off ya.
Or if you are a real sadistic monster, you can slip the offending meat-sicle sledgehammer and catch it on the other side, slide in, pop the elbow, sweep the whole kit down with the left paw, drive straight in with a chin jab with the right hand, elephant hook to catch the neck, or a right palm strike to the groin, take the inevitable knee shot that opens up either to the groin or the lead knee, and finish off with a pair of hammerfists to the back of the neck/head, Left then Right. (I would think though, that maybe the second hammer might become a straight, it has a little longer range, just in case they crumple faster than anticipated...)
Or give 'em a good pop in the ol' gob to remind that an object traveling along a straight line is much faster... kinda simplistic, but hey. why complicate things. Oh, if yer gonna get all fussy, raise the shoulder and duck yer noodle... let the slobberknocker glance off ya.
Or if you are a real sadistic monster, you can slip the offending meat-sicle sledgehammer and catch it on the other side, slide in, pop the elbow, sweep the whole kit down with the left paw, drive straight in with a chin jab with the right hand, elephant hook to catch the neck, or a right palm strike to the groin, take the inevitable knee shot that opens up either to the groin or the lead knee, and finish off with a pair of hammerfists to the back of the neck/head, Left then Right. (I would think though, that maybe the second hammer might become a straight, it has a little longer range, just in case they crumple faster than anticipated...)
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OP
OP
myusername
Brown Belt
Ouch! lol
Seriously though, thats a lose-lose-lose situation! The attacker gets his arm broken! I get my whole body broken! and surely any friendship you have with the attacker must be broken as soon as they realise that you esculated a control and restraint to a full joint break and possibly embroiled them in a manslaughter charge!
the whole point wasn't that he couldn't break the guys arm but the fact that in a street fight/asocial event casualties are the rule not the exception and so I don't care if you break his arm but rather that while you do it I am going to end you For me to worry about someone getting hurt is non-sequitor, of course someone is going to get hurt, my only job is to make it anyone but me
Ouch! lol
Seriously though, thats a lose-lose-lose situation! The attacker gets his arm broken! I get my whole body broken! and surely any friendship you have with the attacker must be broken as soon as they realise that you esculated a control and restraint to a full joint break and possibly embroiled them in a manslaughter charge!
Exactly how do I get to be friends with someone who is attacking me? My assumption was this was a real world fight not a sporting event, so if I have to assume asocial intentions while the guy on the gorund gets a broken arm that is all that happens to him and the other guy can't then break his neck or anything else. Asocial violence is always lose-lose, but it is better to survive whole than to look down from above, having been dispatched....
You are not going to end him (note: for purposes of this exercise, 'you' is an untrained but dangerously violent street attacker—that kind that reality-based approaches to MA applications correctly assume to be the one you're going to be defending against in an unprovoked attack on you). At least, don't count on it—not if he knows what he's doing, and there are plenty of MAists who know exactly what they're doing.
As I said, he can break your friend's arm quickly enough that there's no 'while'. The right leverage and the right force, and your friend's joint is going to be ruptured long before you can close the distance. And he can then throw your friend into you, once his friend's arm is broken and he's in a world of pain and in no position to resist.
Of course he has to keep a least part of an eye on you—that's what peripheral vision is for. But don't assume that he's going to be slow enough to let you do anything. Big mistake.
Making claims about what one can do in a hypothetical fight is easy, but as they say, talk is cheap. Let's just agree that no one knows exactly what will happen in a street fight. But if your friend is in a hold that can turn into a damaged joint with a sharp application of pressure, and you're even a few steps away, I think it's a serious mistake to assume you can control the outcome in any way.
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Gordon Nore
Senior Master
So please offer your favourite defence. If it is quite simply a perfectly valid straight punch to the attackers nose then please play the game and mention an alternative to complement your answer!
Cheers all and I am looking forward to your suggestions!
We shuffle-step in towards the punch arm and block hard, open-handed. the idea is stop the strike before accelerates. Trick: Block the forearm, not the elbow or higher, as the can collapse and still get. From there, lean in with roundhouse to bell. He should be doubled over and you can close with a backfist/ reverse punch combo to the head.
If you can't control the fight, then you see it as a sporting event or competition. If you mean can't control what happens to my friend, then you're right. But again, I am starting out assuming he is giong to get broken, I just want to make sure it is only one break and not his arm then his neck - whatever it is it is beyond my control and not part fo my thinking past giving me a chance to engage someone with open attack vectors for me to get at. If it is about controlling a fight, then we disagree. Every fight has elements that are random, the difference is whether you are competing or surviving. Each body has neurologically hard wired reponses or spinal induction reactions that have predetermined reponses that are unconscious. Think of touching a hot plate and your hand snaps back before you feel pain, its an unconscious defense of the body. If you trigger this in a person their intent, skill, size etc become moot. This is not imaginary its a physiological constant barring neurological impairment from previous trauma or physical irregularity, so you can in fact control the responses and govern things. I am not trying to offer braggarding examples, simply saying too many see street events as competitions when the reality is they can be asocial in a heartbeat and then competition gets you hurt. I don't want this construed as a challenge or posturing by anyone, that is not my intent. It is simply to point out the difference in mindset. My goal is not to beat someone but to render them inoperable, fully broken structurally so I can go home to my wife and kids. I have the feeling we will agree to disagree on this so whatever your take I only offer the input from my experiences for your consideration.
PepperSprayKing
White Belt
Thank you for sharing useful information.A deliberate hard shot meant to knock out the opponent. This phrase goes back to farming when you would swing a sickle in a deliberate motion to cut the grass to make hay out of.
BrandonLucas
3rd Black Belt
I agree to an extent with what you're saying...And I think the confusion here, if I'm correct, is that you're taking the stance of one of the attacker's buddies that is there witnessing the fight. If I'm wrong, correct me.
I can absolutely agree with the "It's him or me" attitude in a fight...there really isn't any room for second guessing. And it's true that if you're looking at the possiblity of multiple attackers, then you're probably going to use more force than you would just facing someone in a 1 on 1 situation.
But, I still think you shouldn't use excessive force when dealing with any attacker, unless it's a life-threatening situation.
I think, and again, I could be wrong, that the haymaker defense is applied here in a social scene, like a bar fight. You may very well have more then one attacker in these situations, but the fight isn't going to be a life or death fight, 9 times out of 10. But, to be fair, each situation is different, and should be looked at before reacting appropriately. Why crush the guy's throat when simply breaking his nose will have the desired effect, and would require the same opening and almost the same technique, but would be far less life-threatening?
In any case, back to the OP, for a haymaker defense, assuming for argument's sake that this is a 1 on 1 situation, I'm just going to block, parry, and dodge. If the guy is dumb enough to throw a big, looping punch at me, it would hurt his pride more to embarass him in front of his friends by not allowing his attack to have any effect on me. Not to mention, if I haven't struck him, then he doesn't have a case against me...now, all this is assuming that I've done all the talking that I can to get out of the situation to begin with.
KempoGuy06
Grandmaster
i like the one i learned in my BJJ class. Step in and block the punch while grabbing the tricep and coming in close to the attackers body forming a T with their body and yours. Next while still holding the arm step to the inside of the attacker, pushing your hips out and rotating you upper body on a 45 degree performing a hip throw.
very nice and very effective. my friend decided to be funny and throw a haymaker at me one time just to see what i would do and did this little move. he has since never done that again and is now looking into taking BJJ
B
very nice and very effective. my friend decided to be funny and throw a haymaker at me one time just to see what i would do and did this little move. he has since never done that again and is now looking into taking BJJ
B
I happen to agree with you on this point. If you check out my profile, you'll see that my interest in the MAs is entirely in practical street combat applications, and always has been—I've no interest in sport competition at all.
But I'm also assuming that the defender, at least, is on his feet. Probably that is the factor that's leading us to different calculations about the outcome. I'm not starting from the assumption that things are going to the ground; the whole strategic plan of the karate-based TMAs is that you do whatever you have to to stay off the ground. In my scenario, your friend is between the defender and you. If the defender is quick and on his feet, I think it's likely that he'll be ready for you as you come in, and your friend will by that point be in no condition to do very much.
I'm hesitant to make any strong claims about what will happen with multiple attack situations, though... but I think there are plenty of uncertainties in such cases, and a shrewd and well-trained defender will not necessarily be a piece of cake.
An adequate defense against a haymaker should be one of the easier things for a trained MAist to do. By stepping in close, you take both the punch and the possible opposite fist followup out of play for a very short but critical period of time, and your 'fence' defensive posture gives you not just a barrier to his attack but sets you up for a very fast head shot—a palm heel strike impacting the base of the nose or an open-hand clawing attack to the eyes. I agree with Imminent about the value of using predictable wired-in responses to impacts and leverage; with both of these large-muscle, tactically simple and adrenal-dump-proof moves, the would-be attacker will be out of it fast, and you can make your own quickest exit from the scene. Take a look at the thread on lapel grabs that Celtic Crippler started, about how the simple 'Mace of Aggression' worked in the situation he describes—and bear in mind, that was a case where the attacker had buddies present. But the tech was so effective so quickly that it basically took the wind out of their sails... the mob mentality breaks down quickly, I think, when your lead loudmouth gets taken out virtually the moment he goes in. It's not a universal rule, but it probably does keep things more or less... rational... a good deal of the time.
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bigfootsquatch
Purple Belt
i like the one i learned in my BJJ class. Step in and block the punch while grabbing the tricep and coming in close to the attackers body forming a T with their body and yours. Next while still holding the arm step to the inside of the attacker, pushing your hips out and rotating you upper body on a 45 degree performing a hip throw.
very nice and very effective. my friend decided to be funny and throw a haymaker at me one time just to see what i would do and did this little move. he has since never done that again and is now looking into taking BJJ
B
Do you guys use the "comb the hair" block where you essentially lift the lead arm in an angle with the hand behind the head, or do you use the two arm lead in, where the right haymaker is met with the left hand straight to the arm? Sorry for the bad description!
KempoGuy06
Grandmaster
OP
OP
myusername
Brown Belt
I think we have gotten a little confused here. In the original post the hypothetical situation makes clear that the attacker is the person who threw the Haymaker. And in one of the possible defences from this attack the defender (whom I wrongly assumed responders to the post would identify with and as such reply from this perspective) locks on an arm lock and warns the attacker's friends that if any one attempts to hurt him or her the attackers arm will be broken. When you replied that in this situation you would step on my (the person defending against the Haymaker) throat/spine etc multiple times you were replying in the role of the attackers friend. When replying to your post I was not suggesting that you were friends with someone attacking you but instead discussing the consequences of your suggested actions in the role of the attackers friend.
Now I understand that the warning to break the arm may not have the impact I would like and the attackers friend or friends may still decide to step in. That is why in that situation I have to be prepared to break the original attackers arm and as a consquence remove that person from the fight so I can concentrate on the new threat of the attckers friend. When talking about controlling a fight I am not talking about competiton or sport I am talking about an attempt at controlling the esculation and risk of the situation. If my attempts at controlling the situation are not effective then I obviously need to move up a gear and break the joint and concentrate my efforts on the attackers buddy without any further wasted efforts of mercy. I am assuming ample time to do this as in the hypothetical response the attckers friend is too busy quipping "you had better make it a good break!"
allenjp
Brown Belt
I believe you are referring to a Ippon Seoi Nage.i like the one i learned in my BJJ class. Step in and block the punch while grabbing the tricep and coming in close to the attackers body forming a T with their body and yours. Next while still holding the arm step to the inside of the attacker, pushing your hips out and rotating you upper body on a 45 degree performing a hip throw.
very nice and very effective. my friend decided to be funny and throw a haymaker at me one time just to see what i would do and did this little move. he has since never done that again and is now looking into taking BJJ
B
Yes, this one is very good also, and if you keep your grip on the arm once the opponent is on the ground you have a couple of different ready made armbars available, or you can jump right into a full mount and pummel away...
Of course like a said in my previous post, with a good clean throw onto a hard floor it's not likely they'll want to continue to fight anyway.
KempoGuy06
Grandmaster
yes you do have those options.
and again correct, with very little force behind the throw you can drop the guy hard to the ground where he may not want to get up
B
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