Fate?

[OUMoose]

The thing I find interesting is that the atheistic view about god and higher power likes to use the scientific method to justify their stance and at the same time they say it puts them completely in charge of their choices and life with no excuses.....

yet this view ignores that the scientific method is the same philosophical approach that has created the argument of nature vs. nurture, determinism vs free will.....

The universe could be just one big chemical reaction set in motion that could be mapped out mathematically if you knew all the variables and that would be just as fatalistic as the view that there is a GOD who has a grand scheme for us all.

As usual, my POV, is that it is somewhere in combination. Somethings we can decide on, others are out of our control.

But, if we map out all the variables leading back to the big bang, and factor in all things are cyclic, including history, then would we not be god, since we know everything? hmmmmmmmmmm...

and just to add to the brain twisting, one of my favorite thinker lines from a movie...

"what's really gonna burn your noodle is, would you have still broken it if I hadn't said anything..."

GAH!!! :asian:

P.S. I don't consider myself an Atheist. I prefer to think more like a Nihilist / Existentialist, which is why I use the symbol for Nihilism as my avatar picture.

 

[loki09789]

But, if we map out all the variables leading back to the big bang, and factor in all things are cyclic, including history, then would we not be god, since we know everything? hmmmmmmmmmm...

and just to add to the brain twisting, one of my favorite thinker lines from a movie...

"what's really gonna burn your noodle is, would you have still broken it if I hadn't said anything..."

GAH!!! :asian:

P.S. I don't consider myself an Atheist. I prefer to think more like a Nihilist / Existentialist, which is why I use the symbol for Nihilism as my avatar picture.

knowledge all the above stuff does not automatically equate to omnipresent or omnipotent, it doesn't even equate to omnicient (subtle but different). Nice riddle though

Please refresh me on the Nihilistic view. Existentialism, for my working definition, is a western contruct of the same stuff as Zen Buddhism: Angst is suffering and other parallels...

 

[OUMoose]

Nihilism, as defined by Merriam-Webster is:

"a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless"

That is very harsh IMO, but it is a definition nonetheless. Most people view it as Rasputin did, in that the world should end for its own good, as it's so far gone nothing can save it. "Life is meaningless and generally pointless, so what's the use of going on" might be a common phrase in their book.

I don't follow the doctrine as such, as that is a supremely negative point of View. I do feel that the current system of "training" we undergo is senseless however. The ideas at their heart are pure (don't hurt people senslessly, don't steal what's not yours, etc), but their method of communication are highly misguided. I also tend to stay quiet on political issues, as my views on the government are less than positive.

Before I start off on a rant, I'm just going to pause this here, as to not cause another thread hijacking. :asian: If anyone would like to talk philosophy like this though, please start another thread, or email me (address should be in the profile).

 

[Corporal Hicks]

So, your jumping to the conclusion that the universe and everything that has complete power was caused and created by a god. Acutal infinity is not possible in nature anyway nor is potential infinity as stated by William Craig.
I dont see why fate has to be controlled by a God at all. Why a God? Why not super beings? Or Aliens? Why do you keep getting yourselves unstuck by assuming that there is a God and that he is automatically to have something to do with fate and the fact that he is all powerful?
As for free will and God, you can say that suffering is a human cause alone and that God gave us this free will, but if humans were created by God and given free will by God, then all the characteristics of humans would be created by
God too, therefore the evil characteristics of humans would have come from God, therefore God is evil (in some way), so much for your perfect God! God is just the explaination for something we do not understand and therefore we created something more mighty than we could understand and got ourselves unstuck!
Regards Though!

 

[ed-swckf]

i'm my god.

 

[bignick]

this has always been an interesting topic to me

there are an infinite number of branches that your life can take, but we only get to explore one...i'm a christian and i strongly believe in free will, which i feel contradicts with the christian belief of a god that has omniscience...if God knows what we are going to do, did we ever really have a choice...if the result is always known could we change our minds...

as a simple example...if i hold up a pen and let go...i know exactly what will happen, it will fall to the ground...every time...there is absolutely no randomness...

i liked someone else's comparison of the universe just being a huge reaction and if we could plot all the variables we would know all the outcomes...on a smaller scale i'd like to use the classic example of randomness in probability, dice

if i held up a pair of dice and dropped them i wouldn't know what number they were gonna land on...but i would know that they were going to hit ground...and if i could plot enough other things like mass, angle of impact, atmosphere and so forth, i would know exactly what number the dice would land on, every time...a seemingly random event that when all the correct variables have been found can be predicted...after all, it would be pretty simple physics...really indepth, but nothing that you wouldn't learn in a couple of semesters of college physics....

to come back around, do humans have free will, is there fate? if we don't would we ever know...once you've made up your mind and taken an action, it's done...you can never go back and see "what if", you can certainly wonder...and just like the dice, if you know a few variables maybe you could get the broad picture (they'll hit the ground)...but you'll never know exactly how it would have worked...

again, back to christianity, I believe God gave us this gift of free will...who wants to watch a cliff hanger when they already know the ending? Let's just hope we keep putting on a good show and God doesn't get bored and decides to change the channel...

in the end, i think this is a very interesting philosophical debate...but after actually articulating my thoughts on the matter...i think i'd rather enjoy the one path i get than trying to figure out if i could have taken another one or not...

 

[Adept]

Cause and effect good people. Cause and effect. A choice, or a decision in the brain is simply a complex chemical reaction firing in response to certain stimuli. If you re-create the stimuli exactly, you will achieve exactly the same result. To whit: If offered the SAME choice twice, the same decision will be made. We have no more control over our thoughts and our decisions than a ball has control over its decision to fall if dropped.

An example is a dice roll. One might consider this to be a good way of generating a random number, but the result is hardly random. If one took the time to analyse the angle of the roll, the force, speed, acceleration, rotation, weight, and shape of the dice, incorporated that with the same properties of the surface the dice is to land on, then one could accurately predict the result of the dice.

It might seem a little outlandish, but think about it. Think about the people you know really well, and think about their reactions to things. Most peoples behaviour is easy to predict, once you know them.

The decision making process is not completely random, nor is it free from the laws of chemistry and physics. It is as much a chemical reaction as a reflexive kick is. It is simply parts of the brain working, and is 100% dependant on the stimuli it recieves.

 

[Flatlander]

A choice, or a decision in the brain is simply a complex chemical reaction firing in response to certain stimuli. If you re-create the stimuli exactly,

The problem I see here is that this premise disregards the change of reference. The stimuli may be identical, but the brush is painting on a different canvas. The stimuli are acting upon different mindstates. Experiences change the way decisions are made. Hence the misfortune of retrospect.

 

[Adept]

The stimuli are acting upon different mindstates. Experiences change the way decisions are made.

Absolutely. One can never exactly duplicate the stimuli with todays technology, since once the equation has been run, the machine used to run it is forever, unalterably changed.

The point however, is that the result, or the decision, is entirely dependant on how our brains react to our environments. We cannot tell our brain to act or react in a certain way, it just happens. Clear examples are mind-altering drugs. When under the influence of drugs the chemical processes of the brain do not function as they normally would, and behaviour is altered. One cannot snort a kilo of coke and then decide to not be affected by it. One has no choice over how their brain is affected by outside stimuli.