Fast punches=hurt elbow??

[Cyriacus]

If you've never been so "lucky" as to experience it, knee problems SUCK. I'm pretty sure I've taken my weight in fish oil capsules over the last year or so

The Worst Ive ever done is a Hyperextention. Two Nights of Ice fixed that nicely.
And then I did it again a Month Later, before Realizing I was too Relaxed during the End Part of the Kick, and needed to Tense up more (The Irony is Fantastic, given how everyone else here is talking about Relaxing )
It wasnt too fun, but I can imagine that a more Intense and Constant and Similar thing wouldnt be Fun

 

[Dirty Dog]

Dirty Dog, I sense that you are not a 'Chunner, and I expect that you mean something different than I do by a "loose fist", but in our WC (NVTO) we always keep a loose fist and relaxed arm and when we do "air punching" we extend the elbow 100%. If you do the technique properly (vertical fist, elbow pointing downward) and with control you will not hurt your elbow or be vulnerable to a joint lock or break by extending fully. If you overdo it with too much tension or poor technique, you may experience joint pain... which is the sighn something is wrong! Also, it is best to alternate air punching with bag hitting, also relaxed, so that the bag will stop your arm before reaching full extention. The reason for the 100% extention is to train "releasing your energy" rather than always "braking" your punch and holding back your energy. Remember, when striking an actual opponent, his body (like the wall bag) will stop your punch for you!

You would be correct. I've never studied any chinese styles. However, my comments were made based more on my training in physiology and medicine than in any MA. Allow me to expand on what I said, and perhaps clarify a bit.

When striking, the muscles need to be relaxed. Tense muscles move slowly, inhibit weight transfer and generate little power. However, at the moment of impact, they need to be tight. A loose hand is a broken hand. During air strikes (so to speak ) that tension is no longer needed. Unless you are fully extending the arm. If you are fully extending the arm, the tension is required to stop the forward movement of the fist prior to hyperextending the elbow. In this case, the fist itself does not necessarily need to be tightened, but other muscles do, just as they are used to stop the forward motion in a strike that does NOT fully extend the elbow. A relaxed arm will extend to (and beyond) the limits of the ligaments. That is going to hurt....
I suspect we're describing the same thing, but with slightly different terminology.

 

[mook jong man]

You would be correct. I've never studied any chinese styles. However, my comments were made based more on my training in physiology and medicine than in any MA. Allow me to expand on what I said, and perhaps clarify a bit.

When striking, the muscles need to be relaxed. Tense muscles move slowly, inhibit weight transfer and generate little power. However, at the moment of impact, they need to be tight. A loose hand is a broken hand. During air strikes (so to speak ) that tension is no longer needed. Unless you are fully extending the arm. If you are fully extending the arm, the tension is required to stop the forward movement of the fist prior to hyperextending the elbow. In this case, the fist itself does not necessarily need to be tightened, but other muscles do, just as they are used to stop the forward motion in a strike that does NOT fully extend the elbow. A relaxed arm will extend to (and beyond) the limits of the ligaments. That is going to hurt....
I suspect we're describing the same thing, but with slightly different terminology.

In Wing Chun striking , the muscles don't need to be tight , only the wrist firmed slightly on impact so it doesn't buckle .
The vertical fist structure is very strong even if the fist is not fully formed because the impact force is absorbed more or less in a straight line from the last three knuckles and down the bones of the forearm.

The Wing Chun exponent must strive to execute strikes with the utmost in relaxation either in the air or into a target , any tension in the strike will cause the impact force to recoil and come back into the strikers upper body disrupting the balance and throwing them back causing power to be lost in the strike.

A properly executed relaxed Wing Chun strike on the other hand will actually push the practitioner down into the floor and momentarily make them heavier as the recoil energy is transferred down the skeletal structure and down into the ground.
This transference of energy down into the stance can only be achieved when the muscles are relaxed.

 

[geezer]

When striking, the muscles need to be relaxed. Tense muscles move slowly, inhibit weight transfer and generate little power. However, at the moment of impact, they need to be tight. A loose hand is a broken hand.

Dirty, first, thanks for the thoughtful response. What you say is true enough in a general sense, but far less true of Wing Chun than the more widely practiced methods of punching such as a boxers jab and cross or the horizontal "corkscrew" fisted punch used in most Japanese and Korean styles. The vertical fist used in WC doesn't have to be rigid at the moment of impact to be stable. Mook's description of "slightly firming' the fist seems spot-on to me. The geometry of the bones in a proper WC strike prevents the wrist from buckling even when a bit relaxed... something I have not found to be true in a horizontal-fisted strike.

During air strikes (so to speak ) that tension is no longer needed. Unless you are fully extending the arm. If you are fully extending the arm, the tension is required to stop the forward movement of the fist prior to hyperextending the elbow. In this case, the fist itself does not necessarily need to be tightened, but other muscles do, just as they are used to stop the forward motion in a strike that does NOT fully extend the elbow. A relaxed arm will extend to (and beyond) the limits of the ligaments. That is going to hurt....
I suspect we're describing the same thing, but with slightly different terminology.

Actually, you are correct to a point here. If you forcefully drive your punch to full extention, past the range of motion of your elbow, your elbows can suffer from the stress. I have done this on occaision, especially when just starting out, by trying to hard to
"get power into my punches". Now, many years later, I'm finally learning that I can get more power by not trying so hard, and my elbows are not a problem.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have to say thank you for this thread. It made at leastone of the bad habits I have picked up since I last trained with my sifu clear.I was letting my elbows get away from my sides a bit too much.

Thanks for all the posts, it help me get rid of a bad habit

 

[geezer]

I have to say thank you for this thread. It made at leastone of the bad habits I have picked up since I last trained with my sifu clear.I was letting my elbows get away from my sides a bit too much.

Thanks for all the posts, it help me get rid of a bad habit

Don't feel bad. When I get tired sometimes I stll let my right elbow drift out too far. One conditioning drill we do at the end of class is timed rounds of fast chain punching with steps using focus mitts. As "Sifu" I always lead by participating (It's an old-guy thing... like to out-do the young, super-fit guys with greater efficiency!) But one of my students noticed that when we upped the duration of the rounds, my right elbow position got sloppy at the end. I thought that was a pretty good observation. Who says you can't learn from your students?