Eyes Wide Open Anti-War Exhibit

[Makalakumu]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7181965/

ESCONDIDO, Calif. - Laid out in rows stretching longer than a football field, 1,513 pairs of black military boots gave a sunsplashed park the quiet, somber mood of a cemetery.

The traveling exhibit, a reminder of the U.S. troops lost in Iraq , arrived on the West Coast in early March, as divisive as the war itself — especially for the families of the fallen men and women.

“If some people look at it and they’re offended by it, maybe they should be,” she said. “I’m in unbearable pain every second of every day because of only one pair of those empty boots.”

“This road back from hell is hard enough without having to defend my son’s name in a political arena,” Dybevik said. “Our sons made the ultimate sacrifice and they did it for the American way of life and not for some political view.”

Check out the photo below. What do you think?

 

[michaeledward]

Two Years

1520 American Dead

11,344 Reported Wounded

$157,187,268,000.00 Dollars spent (and more to be spent).


Pre - Invasion statements by the President Bush's choice to lead the World Bank.

Date: 3/27/2003

"There's a lot of money to pay for this. It doesn't have to be U.S. taxpayer money. We are dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon. [Source: Atlantic Monthly] "

Date: 3/27/2003

"The oil revenues of Iraq could bring between $50 and $100 billion over the course of the next two or three years…We're dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon.” [Source: Congressional Testimony]"

Statements by the Civilian head of the United States Military

Date: 2/7/2003

"It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months. [Source: USA Today]"

Date: 2/27/2003

"What is, I think, reasonably certain is the idea that it would take several hundred thousand U.S. forces I think is far from the mark.” [Source: DOD Web site]"

And this from the Liar in Chief .. (if he wasn't lying, he is incompetent)

Date: 9/26/2002

"The Iraqi regime possesses biological and chemical weapons…And according to the British government, the Iraqi regime could launch a biological or chemical attack in as little as 45 minutes.” [Source: White House Web site]"

Date: 7/14/2003

"And we gave him a chance to allow the inspectors in, and he wouldn't let them in. [Source: White House Web site]"

Date: 5/29/2003

"We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories.” [Source: White House Web site]"

I am sad. I am angry.

 

[Makalakumu]

Two Years

1520 American Dead

11,344 Reported Wounded

$157,187,268,000.00 Dollars spent (and more to be spent).


Pre - Invasion statements by the President Bush's choice to lead the World Bank.

Statements by the Civilian head of the United States Military

And this from the Liar in Chief .. (if he wasn't lying, he is incompetent)

I am sad. I am angry.

Right on!

And what gets me is that your feelings (and mine) somehow turn the death of these wonderful people into something political.

Eyes Wide Open was named appropriately.

 

[AnimEdge]

From a artistic standpoint the exhibit is a quite strong one, using shoes to represent the standing persion is pretty good.

But, Last i checked, the US Military is Volunteers, no one made them go, they all choose to go on there own, sure most when they joined didnt expect to actually do anything but to get free college money or "real life training" or whatever they tell you in the ads, but no one forced them

Now lets look at some numbers, 1520? died sence what 2001ish when we invaded? Out of how many few hundred thousand? I wonder how many people died in my state(texas) from drunk driving in 2003: 1,709, or How many in the US under the age of 21 dies in 2003?: 2,834(http://www.centurycouncil.org/) but where is there "Eyes Wide Open" Exhibit? Where is there Daily News Count? Oh i guess sence they didnt volunteer they dont get one

And my view of Bush is generaly what would YOU have done?

imagine, day after 9/11, your country was just attacked, you have a general idea of who and where they came from, just about everyone in America is looking at you asking? "What are you going to do?" What would you do huh?

Never once did i thought that this ever had to do with WMDs at all, i was not surprised at all that they never found any, i knew they woudlnt, becouse if they did they woudl have used it on us when we invaded, ya know, gone down fighting if you will.

I voted for Bush, my first Vote EVER (turned 18 in 2004) was for him and i would vote again, i hope in 2008 theres a C.Rice V. H.Clinton (Well i think that would just be intersting to begin with)

What i think they shoudl really do with those 1520 shoes they have instead of going across the country, they should send it to the people still in iraq who might need them

 

[michaeledward]

From a artistic standpoint the exhibit is a quite strong one, using shoes to represent the standing persion is pretty good.

But, Last i checked, the US Military is Volunteers, no one made them go, they all choose to go on there own, sure most when they joined didnt expect to actually do anything but to get free college money or "real life training" or whatever they tell you in the ads, but no one forced them

Now lets look at some numbers, 1520? died sence what 2001ish when we invaded? Out of how many few hundred thousand? I wonder how many people died in my state(texas) from drunk driving in 2003: 1,709, or How many in the US under the age of 21 dies in 2003?: 2,834(http://www.centurycouncil.org/) but where is there "Eyes Wide Open" Exhibit? Where is there Daily News Count? Oh i guess sence they didnt volunteer they dont get one

And my view of Bush is generaly what would YOU have done?

imagine, day after 9/11, your country was just attacked, you have a general idea of who and where they came from, just about everyone in America is looking at you asking? "What are you going to do?" What would you do huh?

Never once did i thought that this ever had to do with WMDs at all, i was not surprised at all that they never found any, i knew they woudlnt, becouse if they did they woudl have used it on us when we invaded, ya know, gone down fighting if you will.

I voted for Bush, my first Vote EVER (turned 18 in 2004) was for him and i would vote again, i hope in 2008 theres a C.Rice V. H.Clinton (Well i think that would just be intersting to begin with)

What i think they shoudl really do with those 1520 shoes they have instead of going across the country, they should send it to the people still in iraq who might need them

Many of those 'volunteers' are members of the National Guard. While contractually they might have been aware of what a call-up might mean. I think you will find few, if any, thought this was in the cards. Don't take may word for it. Just make sure your draft registration is up to date.

1520 US service members died in Iraq from March 19, 2003 to March 19, 2005. Additional Coalition members have died in Iraq. An additional 158 US Service members have died in Afghanistan since 2001.

You cite statistics from Texas ... how many citizens live in Texas? How many service members are on duty in Iraq? Such a comparision is foolish on its face. Sean Hannity tries the same thing, and it is false in his case too.

You ask where is the memorial for others who have died. How many of those others were asked to serve in a war to protect us from an imminent threat from weapons of mass destruction that apparently have not existed since before 1998. (See David Kay's interim reports - see Charles Duelfer final report). The United States has stopped looking for Weapons of Mass Destruction, as of January 2005.

If you did not think the invasion of Iraq was about weapons of mass destruction, I would ask you to show me what evidence you used to make your determination as to why the Invasion should be supported. You need to show me some pretty convincing evidence, or else you are more wise than, say, oh, former Secretary of State, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Colin Powell.

As the American Citizens are already paying more than $200,000,000.00 per day for our Activities in Iraq, I do hope there is no one left in a country of 27 million people that don't have shoes. It's the friggin' least we can do.

 

[AnimEdge]

(1)Many of those 'volunteers' are members of the National Guard. While contractually they might have been aware of what a call-up might mean. I think you will find few, if any, thought this was in the cards. Don't take may word for it. Just make sure your draft registration is up to date.

(2)1520 US service members died in Iraq from March 19, 2003 to March 19, 2005. Additional Coalition members have died in Iraq. An additional 158 US Service members have died in Afghanistan since 2001.

(3)cite statistics from Texas ... how many citizens live in Texas? How many service members are on duty in Iraq? Such a comparision is foolish on its face. Sean Hannity tries the same thing, and it is false in his case too.

(4)You ask where is the memorial for others who have died. How many of those others were asked to serve in a war to protect us from an imminent threat from weapons of mass destruction that apparently have not existed since before 1998. (See David Kay's interim reports - see Charles Duelfer final report). The United States has stopped looking for Weapons of Mass Destruction, as of January 2005.

(5)If you did not think the invasion of Iraq was about weapons of mass destruction, I would ask you to show me what evidence you used to make your determination as to why the Invasion should be supported. You need to show me some pretty convincing evidence, or else you are more wise than, say, oh, former Secretary of State, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Colin Powell.

(6)As the American Citizens are already paying more than $200,000,000.00 per day for our Activities in Iraq, I do hope there is no one left in a country of 27 million people that don't have shoes. It's the friggin' least we can do.

1)National Guard is still Volunteer is it not?

2)I did wonder why the count started in 03

3)I actually kind of tried and look to see how many are currently in Iraq, and how is it not a good compairison? People are making a big deal over 1521 killed in Iraq, when 2,834 underage kids are killed by drunk drivers but do you hear anything about them? or how about this:
US Casualtys(http://www.catscape.com/ )(Its a Blogger page but is like the only place i could find it):
Iraq: 1521
Vietnam War: 58,000
Korean War: 2,448,095
WW2: 40,000,000
WW1: 8,500,000

Dunno but to me 1521 is a low count(though any is to many) i just find it annoying that the media and people make such a big deal over this but yet nothing else

(4)They Volunteer and if i remeber correctly(i might not, i heard this from some soliders who returned) They dont hear anything that is going on here at the states (unless through personal letters and such) From what i know is that they dont think they where asked to protect us from WMD that their there doing there jobs and are freeing people, Rome wasnt Rebuilt in a day

(5)I only think it should be supported becouse our government has send in our people to do a job, you dont have to support the war as long as you support the people in it(not like i am saying you are not), I personally think that is highly based of Oil more than anything else, if we "controlled" or where highly allied with Iraq we would have a pretty go spot in the whole oil thing. I think that the US has been waiting for a reason to invade and just "rode the 9/11 wave", and your right "You need to show me some pretty convincing evidence, or else you are more wise than, say, oh, former Secretary of State, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Colin Powell." What makes him right? What makes him wrong? What makes what he says so important? Becouse he was appointed? The fact is is that we are there

If on 9/12 or some close day after 9/11 and this happend and you just so happen to be the president with millions of people bloodbent on revenge of the attack on your nation what would you do? Me, i would have done the same thing

(6) Great comment
I hope my Tax money goes to the Military

 

[Makalakumu]

There are a number of lies that George W. Bush should be impeached for regarding the war in Iraq.

The largest happens to deal with the true nature of this war.

See this thread.

If you do not know about PNAC or about the people who cooked up this plan or what it means for our future, then you know absolutely nothing about this war.

upnorthkyosa

 

[AnimEdge]

Oh its getting interesting

Theres a saying, but i cant think of what it is, that has my general view on it but it just evades me

But all in all this doesnt surprise me, could very well be a plan to take over the world! Myahahaha

Wish this was more of a movie So i dont have to wait 50years to see how it all plays out

 

[Corporal Hicks]

Its a harsh thing to say, but soliders are soliders and they know the risks. At least thats what we say over here. I'm not sure how many British service men are dead. There are frequent demonstrations from members of familys over
saying that their sons/daughters/brothers/husbands etc should not have died.

But being a member of the armed forces, you know that when you sign up that there is a possiblity you will die. Soliders over here know that.

Whether the war was justified or not surely we should be looking ahead, whats done is done and we cannot change that now.

Regards

 

[michaeledward]

Corporal Hicks, to date, Operation Iraqi Freedom has taken 86 lives from the United Kingdom military.

And, of course, members are of the armed forces know that their job carries a risk of loss of life. I think there are two things that we need to be constantly aware of concerning the soldiers who have died in this conflict.

1) More than 40 % of the American boots on the ground are 'National Guard' troops. These people are 'part-time citizen soldiers'. There duty shift is regularly one weekend of training a month, and two weeks extended training a year. For this service, they can earn a bit of extra cash and some benefits while holding down a 40 hour a week 'regular' job.
Never in the past has the National Guard been used to support regular, ongoing military operations overseas. In this country, most National Guard service in the past has been short term call ups to help out in natual disasters (prevent looting after a hurricane, etc).
While a long-term, overseas call up is perfectly legal for the President and Secretary of Defense to make, it is highly doubtful these soldiers (and their families) ever anticipated serving as 'regular duty' soldiers for this time period and this location.

2) Because the job description of a soldier is to die when required, it is essential that the citizens of a state have honest facts before deploying their brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, sons and daughters before deciding against using the military. In the United States Constitution, the Congress has the authority to declare war, partly because the members of the House of Representatives face election every two years. Having to face the citizenry after declaring a 'bad' war, was codified to keep the Representatives honest.
That the Congress of the United States abandoned its Constitutional duty is just one of many reason why this war is illegal in the United States.
But further, the President and his Administration, appear to have been less than forthcoming with information when asking the United States public to support this war.
There is plentiful information that shows the Adminstration made the decision to remove Saddam Hussein, then went about building the case for this decision, often at the expense of facts and intelligence.

It is true that we can not un-ring a bell. But in most civil societies, actions have consequences. Apparently, in my country, if you start an illegal war based on false information (an example of either lying, or incompetence), you get re-elected.

How many more empty boots will be displayed a year from now, two years from now, ten years from now?

 

[Corporal Hicks]

I agree with your point!

It does sometimes seem like an unjustified war for us. The Americans our our friends but it seems like our Prime Minster simply joined the war for sticking close to George Bush. I know that there are more political issues involved and how Britain had to basically follow America.
What should be emphased over here for our people is that we joined this war not for going to war because we felt like it but for standing beside our allies in fighting against terrorism, not (as it seems like) for the purpose of a political issue and for it seems like Tony Blair kissing George Bush's ***.
People would not show much anti-war protest of they had a justified reason in their own hearts for going to war. Including why their love-ones have died!Regards

 

[loki09789]

Why does it have to be an 'Anti-war' display instead of a rememberance to those who VOLUNTEERED (I don't care if they were NG/Res. or not, they/we swear the same oath voluntarily) and died keeping that oath.

Body counts are hard to take. I like Anime's "Any is too many" comment. Thanks. BUT it is things like this that come to mind when I try to make distinctions between attacking the policy makers vs. supporting the troops.

It is aweful hard to know what each of those individuals would say about their name/identity being used for such an act, but I can see some civil proceedings (whether right or not) from the executors/survivors about this.

 

[ginshun]

Never in the past has the National Guard been used to support regular, ongoing military operations overseas. In this country, most National Guard service in the past has been short term call ups to help out in natual disasters (prevent looting after a hurricane, etc).
While a long-term, overseas call up is perfectly legal for the President and Secretary of Defense to make, it is highly doubtful these soldiers (and their families) ever anticipated serving as 'regular duty' soldiers for this time period and this location.

That is just totally wrong. Where exactly did you get this information from? National Guard troops have taken part in pretty much every conflict the US has been in since the 19th century. WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Korea, Gulf War 1 (Desert Storm), all of them and more.

Throughout the 19th century the size of the Regular Army was small, and the militia provided the bulk of the troops during the Mexican War, the early months of the Civil War, and the Spanish-American War. In 1903, important national defense legislation increased the role of the National Guard (as the militia was now called) as a Reserve force for the U.S. Army. In World War I, which the U.S. entered in 1917, the National Guard made up 40% of the U.S. combat divisions in France; in World War II, National Guard units were among the first to deploy overseas and the first to fight.

Following World War II, National Guard aviation units, some of them dating back to World War I, became the Air National Guard, the nation's newest Reserve component. The Guard stood on the frontiers of freedom during the Cold War, sending soldiers and airmen to fight in Korea and to reinforce NATO during the Berlin crisis of 1961-1962. During the Vietnam war, almost 23,000 Army and Air Guardsmen were called up for a year of active duty; some 8,700 were deployed to Vietnam. Over 75,000 Army and Air Guardsmen were called upon to help bring a swift end to Desert Storm in 1991.

Since that time, the National Guard has seen the nature of its Federal mission change, with more frequent call ups in response to crises in Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, and the skies over Iraq. Most recently, following the attacks of September 11, 2001, more than 50,000 Guardmembers were called up by both their States and the Federal government to provide security at home and combat terrorism abroad. Today, tens of thousands of Guardmembers are serving in harm's way in Iraq and Afghanistan, as the National Guard continues its historic dual mission, providing to the states units trained and equipped to protect life and property, while providing to the nation units trained, equipped and ready to defend the United States and its interests, all over the globe.

So just by reading those three paragraphs, it would seem pretty stupid for someone to join the National Guard, and not have any idea that they might get deployed if the US goes to war. They should think the opposite, as the US has not in recent times ever been in a war in which at least some National Guard memebers did not get deployed. If they they joined up thinking that there was no way they would get deployed, it seems as though they should have maybe looked a little closer at what they were getting into.
If you're going to post things, at least look into them a little so that you are not just posting blatent lies.


As far as the exibit goes, is it meant to be anti-war, or is it meant to honor our fallen servicemen, or maybe some of each. What were the organizers original intentions?

 

[Flatlander]

If you're going to post things, at least look into them a little so that you are not just posting blatent lies.

If you're going to refute something, try to do it in a way that isn't insulting or condescending.

 

[ginshun]

If you're going to refute something, try to do it in a way that isn't insulting or condescending.

So your telling me that what he posted wasn't just a flat out lie then?

It was either that or he had no idea what he was talking about. I guess I can't tell you for sure which one, but either way, it was an idiotic statement to make. My apologies for sounding like a prick, but stuff like that makes me mad.

 

[shesulsa]

Moderators Note:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful. Terms and Conditions link is at the bottom of the page.

Georgia Ketchmark
Sr. Moderator

 

[Flatlander]

Mod hat off: the following is my opinion as a member, and in no way reflects the position of Martial Talk staff. I am responding to a post addressed to me.

So your telling me that what he posted wasn't just a flat out lie then?

It was either that or he had no idea what he was talking about. I guess I can't tell you for sure which one, but either way, it was an idiotic statement to make. My apologies for sounding like a prick, but stuff like that makes me mad.

Ginshun, I need you to understand this:

a) A lie implies possession of the truth in the first place. You haven't any way to demonstrate michaeledward had possession of the truth, so calling him a liar is both unjustifiable, and rude.

b) Please refrain from being inflammatory. Also, there is no place for words like "prick" in here. Please clean up your language.

 

[ginshun]

Mod hat off: the following is my opinion as a member, and in no way reflects the position of Martial Talk staff. I am responding to a post addressed to me.Ginshun, I need you to understand this:

a) A lie implies possession of the truth in the first place. You haven't any way to demonstrate michaeledward had possession of the truth, so calling him a liar is both unjustifiable, and rude.

b) Please refrain from being inflammatory. Also, there is no place for words like "prick" in here. Please clean up your language.

a) So be it. Maybe not a lier, but IMO if you don't know what the truth is, then don't present a very strong, bold faced statement as a fact. Sorry for not presenting my rebuttle in a kind and gentle enough way. If the statement had not been so completly opposite of the truth, maybe I would have been a little more cordial.


b) Sorry, I didn't realize that word was innappropriate on this forum. I didn't think that I was being inflamatory with its use, as I was referring to myself, but anyway, it won't happen again.

 

[PeachMonkey]

a) So be it. Maybe not a lier, but IMO if you don't know what the truth is, then don't present a very strong, bold faced statement as a fact. Sorry for not presenting my rebuttle in a kind and gentle enough way. If the statement had not been so completly opposite of the truth, maybe I would have been a little more cordial.

To put it simply, if you disagree with someone and feel that you can rebut their arguments, there are many ways to do so without jumping up and down and yelling "you're a stupid liar!" Our abilities to do so are what make The Study such a compelling place to hold discussions about so many different, and difficult, topics.

 

[ginshun]

To put it simply, if you disagree with someone and feel that you can rebut their arguments, there are many ways to do so without jumping up and down and yelling "you're a stupid liar!" Our abilities to do so are what make The Study such a compelling place to hold discussions about so many different, and difficult, topics.

Hmmm, I didn't think that I did that, but whatever.


Where does not presenting complete falsehoods as fact, fall into the the scheme of having a compelling discussion? Not very high apperently.

I am sorry to even keep responding to this, as I am sure it is just digging myself a deeper hole, but to me it seems utterly ridiculous that somone else can (knowingly or not, it makes no difference to me) post complete falsehoods regarding the crux of an argument, and yet I am the one who gets beat up. All because I wasn't polite enough when I pointed out his innacuracies.

I didn't realize that in a discussin, being polite was more important that getting your facts staight, and for that I am sorry.

I will refrain from posting on this thread anymore, unless I have something on topic to say, in which case I will try to be extremely polite.