evolution

[Manny]

Do you think TKD is an evolution from TSD? I asked this because as long as I've know TKD was a name coined by Gen.Choi afther he got together with some TSD people before the formation of the KTA back in the mid 40's.

Manny

 

[dancingalone]

Korean martial arts history is messy. To answer your question fully would take a lot of time and require a lot of definitions to be accurate. For example, what is tang soo do? Is it Won Kuk Lee's system, since he reportedly was the first to use the term? Or is it the more popular and modern usage: Hwang Kee's system before he changed both the name and the technical parameters to that of Soo Bahk Do?

Maybe it would be worth refining your question a bit further?

 

[ATC]

Everything evolves.

 

[terryl965]

If we do not evolve we will go down in history as the only people that knew nothing.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Do you think TKD is an evolution from TSD? I asked this because as long as I've know TKD was a name coined by Gen.Choi afther he got together with some TSD people before the formation of the KTA back in the mid 40's.

Manny

Strictly speaking, no. Evolution most properlly is defined as a natural process which results in changes in a species over time due to mutation. As an anthropology professor of mine in college told us, "Evolution has nothing 'in mind.'" There is no "goal" of evolution because it's a mindless. Presenting it as such, or as heading towards some final end, is simply an anthropomorphism.

The development of Taekwon-Do wasn't due to some genetic mutation. It was a process guided by Gen. Choi and other TKD pioneers who made full use of their intellect and reason to develop a martial art. Taekwon-Do is completely man made, in that sense, and not a "natural evolution." You could only use evolution here in the most analogous of ways.

That all being said, Taekwon-Do is a development Gen. Choi and others made from Tang Soo Do, if you understand TSD to be a Koreanized term for karate. (I've heard some rather well know Korean style martial artists argue that TSD is actually an MA indigenous to Korea. Never seen any proof of that.) In his autobiography, Gen. Choi talks about initially teaching his troops Tang Soo. He mentions Lee, Won Kuk and other Kwan founders teaching Tang Soo or Kong Soo before the unification movement. But he doesn't talk about Taekwon-Do until later in the book and then it is presented as the style he founded and his right hand men helped him develop and systematize.

Pax,

Chris

 

[ATC]

Strictly speaking, no. Evolution most properlly is defined as a natural process which results in changes in a species over time due to mutation. As an anthropology professor of mine in college told us, "Evolution has nothing 'in mind.'" There is no "goal" of evolution because it's a mindless. Presenting it as such, or as heading towards some final end, is simply an anthropomorphism.

The development of Taekwon-Do wasn't due to some genetic mutation.

TKD itself is a mutation of Shotakan Karate. Not genetic but an off shoot none the less. Then once it started to spread each hand down changes it even more. Not by design but by each persons interpertation.

Yes you can look at art systems as organic in a way as it is an expression of yourself. Each time it is passed down there is the core but there are also small differences that keep it evloving. And yes it is mindless.

 

[dancingalone]

That all being said, Taekwon-Do is a development Gen. Choi and others made from Tang Soo Do, if you understand TSD to be a Koreanized term for karate. (I've heard some rather well know Korean style martial artists argue that TSD is actually an MA indigenous to Korea. Never seen any proof of that.) In his autobiography, Gen. Choi talks about initially teaching his troops Tang Soo. He mentions Lee, Won Kuk and other Kwan founders teaching Tang Soo or Kong Soo before the unification movement. But he doesn't talk about Taekwon-Do until later in the book and then it is presented as the style he founded and his right hand men helped him develop and systematize.

1) Not all the Kwans had the same curriculum, although most were similar, being based off Shotokan karate. Still, it's overgeneralization to call them all Tang Soo Do or Kong Soo Do.

2) Was Manny asking about Taekwon-Do or taekwondo or tae kwon do? Each of the spelling variations have a different connotation to me, again showing how difficult it is to discuss TKD history without a common lexicon in place.

 

[chrispillertkd]

1) Not all the Kwans had the same curriculum, although most were similar, being based off Shotokan karate. Still, it's overgeneralization to call them all Tang Soo Do or Kong Soo Do.

Besides Kwon Bup, which I think perhaps only the Chang Moo Kwan used to describe its style, what else were the Kwans teaching besides Tang Soo and Kong Soo? Nothing I know of.

The Chang Moo Kwan wasn't based off of Shotokan but rather Chuan Fa and Shudokan. The Ji Do Kwan was also based on Shudokan, I believe.

Anyway, since both Tang Soo and Kong Soo are just Korean transliterations of karate it's fine to use it as a term for any of the Kwans' pre-TKD base art.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

TKD itself is a mutation of Shotakan Karate. Not genetic but an off shoot none the less. Then once it started to spread each hand down changes it even more. Not by design but by each persons interpertation.

But each person's interpretation included a design as far as what they were trying to accomplish and how they wanted to change or modify techniques in order to get more power, more speed, etc. It's anything but "evolution."

Yes you can look at art systems as organic in a way as it is an expression of yourself. Each time it is passed down there is the core but there are also small differences that keep it evloving. And yes it is mindless.

Nope. It's possible for changes to creep in without people thinking about them due to laziness or whatever. But if we're talking about the development of TKD, which Manny was, then no it wasn't mindless. At least not in the case of Gen. Choi.

Pax,

Chris

 

[dancingalone]

Besides Kwon Bup, which I think perhaps only the Chang Moo Kwan used to describe its style, what else were the Kwans teaching besides Tang Soo and Kong Soo? Nothing I know of.

The Chang Moo Kwan wasn't based off of Shotokan but rather Chuan Fa and Shudokan. The Ji Do Kwan was also based on Shudokan, I believe.

Anyway, since both Tang Soo and Kong Soo are just Korean transliterations of karate it's fine to use it as a term for any of the Kwans' pre-TKD base art.

Pax,

Chris

That's the primary example I was thinking of. Byung In Yoon also taught some staff forms apparently. And then there's the whole deal with Hwang Kee and his own leanings into Korean gong fu.

The meaning of the Tang Soo characters aside, it's a term that is subject to misinterpretation unless you are exactly clear about what you mean, as it too has been somewhat of an evolving term like TKD has been.

 

[ATC]

But each person's interpretation included a design as far as what they were trying to accomplish and how they wanted to change or modify techniques in order to get more power, more speed, etc. It's anything but "evolution."

You use the term evolution as if it only fits one definition. This is not the case. The term evolution has more than one meaning. It is all in the context. You can have and evolution of an idea, system, process. Evolution of a species if entirely different than an evolution of a system.

The definition of the term or word evolution is;
· development: a process in which something passes by degrees to a different stage (especially a more advanced or mature stage); "the development of his ideas took many years"; "the evolution of Greek civilization"; "the slow development of her skill as a writer"
· (biology) the sequence of events involved in the evolutionary development of a species or taxonomic group of organisms

As you see you are only looking at the biological definition of the word. Even still the word itself (evolution or to evolve) simply mean to change over time, regardless of a mindless change or one that took some planning.

I stand by my theory that everything evolves.

 

[pmosiun1]

Do you think TKD is an evolution from TSD? I asked this because as long as I've know TKD was a name coined by Gen.Choi afther he got together with some TSD people before the formation of the KTA back in the mid 40's.

Manny

Most of these Korean Martial art origin can be trace back to Japanese Karate.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

In his autobiography, Gen. Choi talks about initially teaching his troops Tang Soo. He mentions Lee, Won Kuk and other Kwan founders teaching Tang Soo or Kong Soo before the unification movement.

But he doesn't talk about Taekwon-Do until later in the book and then it is presented as the style he founded and his right hand men helped him develop and systematize.

I think, depending on what you mean by TKD, that these are both true to one level or another.

1) Not all the Kwans had the same curriculum, although most were similar, being based off Shotokan karate. Still, it's overgeneralization to call them all Tang Soo Do or Kong Soo Do.

2) Was Manny asking about Taekwon-Do or taekwondo or tae kwon do? Each of the spelling variations have a different connotation to me, again showing how difficult it is to discuss TKD history without a common lexicon in place.

Same here.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Besides Kwon Bup, which I think perhaps only the Chang Moo Kwan used to describe its style, what else were the Kwans teaching besides Tang Soo and Kong Soo? Nothing I know of.

The Chang Moo Kwan wasn't based off of Shotokan but rather Chuan Fa and Shudokan. The Ji Do Kwan was also based on Shudokan, I believe.

Anyway, since both Tang Soo and Kong Soo are just Korean transliterations of karate it's fine to use it as a term for any of the Kwans' pre-TKD base art.

Pax,

Chris

The Jidokwan particularly, IIRC taught elements of Judo too. I'm sure there were others. The Oh Do Kwan although heavily influenced by karate/TSD from General Choi, Nam Tae Hi and many of the Chung Do Kwan etc graduates they had also developed a lot of techniques and methods themselves. I would argue therefore the Oh Do Kwan, in response to your first question there.

To expand on what dancingalone said and my agreement there - IMHO after the KCIA forced alot of people to split from the ITF, and instructors split from the ITF themselves for reasons including Gen Choi's visits to NK, the "TKD's" diverge, with Taekwon-Do being perhaps the purer TKD, Tae Kwon Do being those who practiced either similar stuff of perhaps the more KKW/Karate type TKD but retained a leaning to the martial aspect, and taekwondo which has gone head-first into sport. That is how I would interpret those forms of the name.

General Choi absorbed alot of purely Karate/TSD people into TKD - Jhoon Rhee for one. As the ITF lost their dominance I think that what was left in Korea with the kwans and the early Kukkiwon people is far more heavily karate influenced than the ITF and the original people from the ITF. A fact that some of the original masters are keen to emphasise.

 

[chrispillertkd]

The Jidokwan particularly, IIRC taught elements of Judo too.

I have heard similar things myself. Chun, Sang Sup did practice Judo in high school and actually began teaching Kong Soo/Tang Soo in the Cho Sun Yun Moo Kwan to Judo yudanja. I'm not sure how much of the Judo transfered over into Jidokwan's official syllabus, however. I will say that the Korean instructor I had in college had Jidokwan roots ... and a 5th dan in Judo. Interesting coincidence. Lot's of cross training back in the day in Korea, though.

I'm sure there were others. The Oh Do Kwan although heavily influenced by karate/TSD from General Choi, Nam Tae Hi and many of the Chung Do Kwan etc graduates they had also developed a lot of techniques and methods themselves. I would argue therefore the Oh Do Kwan, in response to your first question there.

Well, the Oh Do Kwan, the Chung Do Kwan, the Ji Do Kwan (it was an adjunct program to a Judo school), Jung Do Kwan, Song Moo Kwan, etc. were very close to their karate roots pre-1955, definitely.

The only one I know for sure that was teaching something besides straight Tang Soo or Kong Soo at this point was the YMCA Kwon Bup Bu when Byung In Yoon was the instructor. He was quite skilled in Kwon Bup and highly ranked in Shudokan (I am unsure how much training he did before Kanken Toyama ranked him as a 4th dan in Shudokan but regardless his skill must have been superb). From most accounts, when Nam Suk Lee took over most of the Chinese influence was minimized and so the Chang Moo Kwan might have actually taken a step closer to karate at that point (though this is conjecture on my part as I wasn't around then). That being said, my instructor has Chang Moo Kwan roots and you can see some of that in the applications I have learned and some of the alternate methods of executing techniques he's shown me.

From what I have seen, after this initial period the Song Moo Kwan has added things to its syllabus and gotten away from being purely Shotokan based, even though when it was founded the name chosen (Pine Tree School) is a direct reference to Shotokan. Likewise, with the Oh Do Kwan. When Gen. Choi got to Canada he actually added a fair amount of Hapkido to the ITF's Ho Sin Sul.

General Choi absorbed alot of purely Karate/TSD people into TKD - Jhoon Rhee for one. As the ITF lost their dominance I think that what was left in Korea with the kwans and the early Kukkiwon people is far more heavily karate influenced than the ITF and the original people from the ITF. A fact that some of the original masters are keen to emphasise.

I think there is a lot of truth to this.

Pax,

Chris