Ethics

[Bruno@MT]

You are right, it isn't a case of supporting pedophilia (which isn't the case in the example given since the girls in question were 15-16, pedophilia is defined as a love of prepubescent children). It was more an issue of the relationship between teacher and student, and ultimately of unconditional love.

Both the US and Korea are Christian countries, and without a doubt our values and our culture are greatly influenced by Christianity, even if we are not practicing Christians. Korea is probably the most Christian nation in Asia, and there are at least a dozen Korean christian churches within a couple miles of my home. To me, Jesus was about unconditional love and non-judgmentality -- turn the other cheek, forgive seven times seventy, he who is without sin casting the first stone, and so forth.

I think this situation is also very common in a lot of schools, perhaps not so much with the head instructor, but rather at the assistant instructor level. So many times when I visit dojang I see that socially awkward assistant instructor whose whole life is that dojang, his only contact with the opposite sex being teenaged students.

And it is not limited to males, but females too. In fact, here, the daughter of a prominent instructor in her late twenties, one of the chief assistants at her father's school, was dating a 13 year male student. It was quite a school scandal. I wouldn't characterize him as an "enabler", but I also don't think he disowned her either. He clearly loved his daughter.

My answer was in relation to your post, in which you described a scenario using that word.
Assuming that is true, is that a sufficient reason in your mind to sever ties with your instructor? If your parents turn a blind eye and enables your brother with his pedophilia problem, do you cut ties with your parents and brother?

So ye, if people turn a blind eye and enable paedophilia, there is not a reason to support them, no matter who they are. Christianity does not tell you to enable or allow people to molest kids. Such people should be stopped. Not ignored and definitely not enabled.

 

[puunui]

So ye, if people turn a blind eye and enable paedophilia, there is not a reason to support them, no matter who they are. Christianity does not tell you to enable or allow people to molest kids. Such people should be stopped. Not ignored and definitely not enabled.

This seems very personal for you.

 

[troubleenuf]

I dont get this response. You are basically saying it was ok for this guy just because the girls were 15? Do you have any daughters? A sex offender is a sex offender. Call them pedophile, rapist, whatever. If a 40 year old instructor takes advantage of his position with a 15 year old student that makes him a sex offender.
And no I am NOT religious. This is a matter of what is right and what is wrong.
I dont know what area you come from but this situation is not a NORMAL situation nor should it be a common occurrence. We have a rule in our gym that instructors can not date students. If we have a situation that occurs between an older student and a under age student we take steps to take care of it (in 30 years you will get such problems arising).

You are right, it isn't a case of supporting pedophilia (which isn't the case in the example given since the girls in question were 15-16, pedophilia is defined as a love of prepubescent children). It was more an issue of the relationship between teacher and student, and ultimately of unconditional love.

Both the US and Korea are Christian countries, and without a doubt our values and our culture are greatly influenced by Christianity, even if we are not practicing Christians. Korea is probably the most Christian nation in Asia, and there are at least a dozen Korean christian churches within a couple miles of my home. To me, Jesus was about unconditional love and non-judgmentality -- turn the other cheek, forgive seven times seventy, he who is without sin casting the first stone, and so forth.

I think this situation is also very common in a lot of schools, perhaps not so much with the head instructor, but rather at the assistant instructor level. So many times when I visit dojang I see that socially awkward assistant instructor whose whole life is that dojang, his only contact with the opposite sex being teenaged students.

And it is not limited to males, but females too. In fact, here, the daughter of a prominent instructor in her late twenties, one of the chief assistants at her father's school, was dating a 13 year male student. It was quite a school scandal. I wouldn't characterize him as an "enabler", but I also don't think he disowned her either. He clearly loved his daughter.

 

[puunui]

I dont get this response. You are basically saying it was ok for this guy just because the girls were 15? Do you have any daughters? A sex offender is a sex offender. Call them pedophile, rapist, whatever. If a 40 year old instructor takes advantage of his position with a 15 year old student that makes him a sex offender.

I'm not saying it's ok. I'm saying it does not fit the definition of pedophilia, which deals with prepubescent victims not 15 year olds. Please don't read anything more into it than that. Look it up if you don't believe me.

And no I am NOT religious. This is a matter of what is right and what is wrong.

ok.

I dont know what area you come from but this situation is not a NORMAL situation nor should it be a common occurrence.

I'm not saying that it is a normal situation either. Again, please don't read anything more into it than that. What I did say was that I see the POTENTIAL for this sort of situation to arise in dojang.

We have a rule in our gym that instructors can not date students. If we have a situation that occurs between an older student and a under age student we take steps to take care of it (in 30 years you will get such problems arising).

What do you mean "in 30 years you will get such problems arising"?

 

[troubleenuf]

In 30 years of teaching I have had to have a "talk" on two occasions with an adult student on what is appropriate and what is not regarding a younger student. If you run a school its part of what you need to be aware of and one of the things you will eventually have to deal with.


What do you mean "in 30 years you will get such problems arising"?[/QUOTE]

 

[puunui]

In 30 years of teaching I have had to have a "talk" on two occasions with an adult student on what is appropriate and what is not regarding a younger student. If you run a school its part of what you need to be aware of and one of the things you will eventually have to deal with.

I agree.

 

[Bruno@MT]

This seems very personal for you.

Yes. This will not be a short answer and slightly on the philosohical side. I have spent quite some time thinking about my feelings on this issue, ever since I became a father. Btw, your posts so far made me wonder: do you have kids?

Now, there are many things wrong in the world. People do all sorts of nasty things.
Yet life is a game. A complicated game with no set rules. We have a moral compass and a brain to help us make decisions, we have our wits and our skills and we try to make the best of it. Some people start off with a head start and are born lucky, others are born in poverty.

Much of what happens to us is a consequence of the decisions we make. We decide whether to learn to fight or not. We decide whether we walk in that parking lot or not, we decide whether we try to get an education, whether we save money or spend it, etc etc. Some people even decide to cover their ear and pretend the world is fair. Even that is a decision. And it may not be fair, but we all play the game and we all live or die as consequences of our own decisions. That is how I see life.

There is one catch. People are born helpless, innocent, and totally incapable of even feeding themselves. We can't leave kids to themselves because they'd die. The depend on us to prepare them for the game, just like we depended on our parents to prepare us. That's the covenant of life, like a law of nature. Kids need to grow into the game. It is impossible to define where exactly the point is, but somewhere between grade school and high school we can be said to be concious of how life affects us, and how our fate is bound to our choices.

Taking advantage of people who cannot yet play the game is a grave crime against life. Those people cannot play. Whatever happens to them is NOT a consequence of their decisions, but solely a consequence of the decision of the attacker. People with a mental handicap, or young kids are untouchable. Just like the kid in the wheelchair was untouchable in school. Because there is a common understanding that you just don't touch some people.

Such people do not deserve life. Such people deserve only death. Crimes against kids are the most vile, foul, inexcusable crimes there are. And not only do these people get out of jail, they are statistically guaranteed to commit their crimes again. And then there are people knowingly enabling them which is something I just cannot understand. Enabling them is making the crimes happen.

You can even argue that violating the covenant of life is part of the game, which I cannot refute. Yet by the same token I can then argue that such people have no claim left to any of the protections (the laws of man) covering them in this game.

I am aware that guilt cannot always be proven to a degree where a death sentence is warranted. And I don't think innocent blood should be spilled. In such cases life in prison should be the punishment. for the perverts that are proven paedophiles, I honestly would support nailing them to the cross and putting them up next to crossroads.

I apologise if this is a bit rambling. You asked a question that required a philosophical explanation, since that is why I have an issue with this issue.

 

[puunui]

Now, there are many things wrong in the world. People do all sorts of nasty things. Yet life is a game. A complicated game with no set rules.

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I do have one comment though, and that in my opinion, the game is not so complicated and that there are certain set rules, but also a lot of freedom too.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have never left any of my instructors and remain on good terms with all of them. For me, the martial arts are like a family. Your fellow students under your instructor are your brothers and sisters, the students of your classmates are your nieces and nephews, and so forth.

Say in your real family you have a brother with a drug problem or has otherwise gotten in trouble with the law.Your parents, who unconditionally love your brother, try to help him each time he gets in trouble. Do you disown your parents and your brother if they help your brother?

Porn involving minors is way more serious than havng a drug problem and a very different issue altogether. The two are not at all comparable.

And what kind of help are we talking about anyway?

Helping him by getting him counseling? I'm all for it.

"Helping" him by enabling him to continue in his bad behavior? That I would be against, and that would cause an unmendable rift between myself and my parents. Because that kind of "help" really isn't help, whether it is an issue of sexual misconduct or a substance abuse issue.

By authorizing this instructor to open his own school, the org. head is essentially enabling him to repeat the same behavior. I would jump ship at the earliest possible convenience. I would not want to be associated with an organization that passively condones such behavior.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

All right. I wasn't going to turn this into a "my experience" type deal. I was just going to start a conversation on ethics. But it seems I need to go into more detail. So here it is (this was the "final" thing that caused me to leave my old organization by the way).
One of the instructors was arrested for having 62 video tapes of him having sex with underage girls from his gym. Because the girls were 15/16 it was considered as consenting age in this state (yeh... believe it or not). So even though this guy was in his mid 40s he got of with basically a slap on the wrist and told to get out of town (they even left him with his counseling license!) So basically this guy moved to another city and wanted to open another gym. When my instructor told me he was going to allow him too I took that as the last straw on the camels back and left that organization (yes there were other problems up to this point but this was one thing I couldn't put up with). However none of the other instructors in the organization did. Even when I confronted them. I felt, and I told them this, that if that person belonged to the organization and I was part of the organization I was supporting him. Their position was that they were supporting the "head guy" and not this one instructor.
So I was just putting out some feelers out there to see how others felt about this type of situation.

You were right to leave.

The other instructors must do what they must. While I would not hold it against them or even say that they were 'wrong' to stay, in the end, it is your conscience that you answer to, not theirs.

Daniel

 

[msmitht]

What state allows a man to have sex with a minor, videotape it, arrest him and then just let him go? Please tell me which state this is. A minor is defined as someone under the age of 18. If he was in posession of 63 videos then that would be 63 federal crimes. Does not matter what the state does. Unless we are tallking about a case where the cops, judge and da decided to keep it quiet....which I doubt.
I agree that death is an acceptable punishment for sex crimes against a minor. Castration would only frustrate them more.
I would also like to say that ANYONE who takes the pedophiles, or whatever the appropriate name is for this scumbag, side on this matter is an enabler and is just as guilty of the crimes themselves. I will be ignoring any and all supporters.
MT MODERATORS should look at this thread as it is discussing a very sensitive topic that could offend those who have children/siblings/friends who have fallen victim to scum like this.

 

[Master Dan]

What state allows a man to have sex with a minor, videotape it, arrest him and then just let him go? Please tell me which state this is. A minor is defined as someone under the age of 18. If he was in posession of 63 videos then that would be 63 federal crimes. Does not matter what the state does. Unless we are tallking about a case where the cops, judge and da decided to keep it quiet....which I doubt.
I agree that death is an acceptable punishment for sex crimes against a minor. Castration would only frustrate them more.
I would also like to say that ANYONE who takes the pedophiles, or whatever the appropriate name is for this scumbag, side on this matter is an enabler and is just as guilty of the crimes themselves. I will be ignoring any and all supporters.
MT MODERATORS should look at this thread as it is discussing a very sensitive topic that could offend those who have children/siblings/friends who have fallen victim to scum like this.

In addition having sex with a woman who is too intoxicated or under the influence beyond what she can consent to what she is doing is also rape our police force was picking them up having sex even fathering babies here finally got stopped when one of them took a beautiful girl and shot her executions style and the Chief said our officers no longer date on duty? he is no longer chief we were called murder capitol for awhile

 

[andyjeffries]

I agree that death is an acceptable punishment for sex crimes against a minor.

I disagree, I think death is too easy. The punishment should last the rest of their life. I know sex criminals get a really bad time in UK prisons, so maybe life imprisonment with their crimes tattooed on their foreheads?

I would also like to say that ANYONE who takes the pedophiles, or whatever the appropriate name is for this scumbag

Aged 15-19 is Ephebophiliac

 

[msmitht]

I disagree, I think death is too easy. The punishment should last the rest of their life. I know sex criminals get a really bad time in UK prisons, so maybe life imprisonment with their crimes tattooed on their foreheads?



Aged 15-19 is Ephebophiliac

Death is too easy, but I am also not a believer that a person should spend the rest of their life in a cell. If society and the laws that govern it say that a person is unfit to live in it then execute them.
Simple, is it not??

 

[puunui]

And what kind of help are we talking about anyway? Helping him by getting him counseling? I'm all for it.

Yes, counseling. But how do we get them counseling if we cut them off?

By authorizing this instructor to open his own school, the org. head is essentially enabling him to repeat the same behavior. I would jump ship at the earliest possible convenience. I would not want to be associated with an organization that passively condones such behavior.

But what is the definition of "passively condone"?

I think this is a bigger problem than people realize. I think that martial arts schools are about as vulnerable and exposed as the Catholic Church is on this issue. I think that it is not limited to students or instructors but also parents of students.

In another dojang, there was a father who would watch his son at every practice. The other parents as well as the students and instructors considered him a little weird. Then one of the parents was looking through the sex offender list on the internet for the neighborhood and discovered that this parent in question was convicted of possession of child pornography. Apparently he had been caught with images on his work computer.

What should be done in this situation? Should we kick the student out because of what his father was convicted of? Everyone is in favor of doing background checks of instructors, but should we do them for parents and adult students as well prior to signing them up?

 

[puunui]

I would also like to say that ANYONE who takes the pedophiles, or whatever the appropriate name is for this scumbag, side on this matter is an enabler and is just as guilty of the crimes themselves. I will be ignoring any and all supporters.

There has been a lot of evidence which shows that there has been a pattern of abusing our junior team members and junior athletes by USAT's national coaches. USAT's response to said allegations has been to suspend the athletes making the accusations and/or terminate the membership of those who bring the evidence to the public's eye. Should we ignore and/or boycott USAT for such actions, or is it ok for us to support events that USAT sanctions, like Kukkiwon Instructor Courses in which USAT gets a cut of the seminar fees?

 

[msmitht]

You are talking about jean and mandy, right? If he was guilty then they would have had him arrested, not tried to get him booted. If he is truly guilty then shame on him. He belongs with the rest of the scum. Let's give him a rope and a leg up!

 

[puunui]

You are talking about jean and mandy, right? If he was guilty then they would have had him arrested, not tried to get him booted. If he is truly guilty then shame on him. He belongs with the rest of the scum. Let's give him a rope and a leg up!

Jean and a lot of junior athletes. There have been allegations about Juan too. But you didn't really answer my question about supporting USAT who are arguably enabling them and certainly giving them continued access to even more junior athletes in situations where their parents are not there, like on trips to international events.

 

[msmitht]

Prove it and I will not support the usat until he is removed.

 

[puunui]

Prove it and I will not support the usat until he is removed.

I'm sure halpino can give you all the evidence you need. I do understand there is a criminal investigation into the matter.