EPAK Old vs. New

[Hand Sword]

Greetings to all of the kenpo practioners out here. I have a question maybe some of you can enlighten me on. I have heard and read about what is now the EPAK system is not what GM Ed Parker did, or taught to some of the Old Schoolers of your lineage. I was wondering, What are the differences, and why did GM Parker change it to the way it is taught? Thank you, and respect to all of you!

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

There is some really neat stuff out there that just does not translate well for instruction to the masses. There is a line between what really works well, and what works well-enough, and that line has a lot to do with the ability to make a living as a martial arts instructor.

I can imagine the dillemma: How does one temper down the material enough to make it palatable to the masses with checkbooks, but not so far down that people training it end up representing the bottom of the heap?

I asked a similar-veined question at a seminar recently, particularly regarding the differences in content and training styles between "then" and "now", since I started kenpo when it was still "grab and beat" karate for maiming, with a technical twist. Now, "it" (American Kenpo in general...keep in mind, each teacher has their own take on how they teach and what they teach, and not all kenpo is created equal, or related equally to the people learning it) seems to be more technical than applicable, having been lost largely in a sea of it's own mumbo-jumbo. I learned techniques and freestyle combinations as "the one against a...", and that's how I remember them. Since then, definitions and algebraic equations seem to have taken over the application of combative logic (in my mind).

The answer I recieved was an interesting one, which included references to what kenpo was used for, and by whom back in the day, as well as making it more accessible to a wider audience of participants. Even then, the stuff I learned was about blasting a guy hard and fast, with flurries of strikes to vulnrable targets. That's given way to checking off angles of execution with borrowed force from the marriage of gravity, yadd-yadda-yadda. In recent months, I've had the opportunity to dialogue with Mr. Chapel regarding some of the real vs. distracting technical components of the art. There are some higher level understandings of kenpo that are more technical than the stuff people get lost jabbering about, but which are not readily amenable to the public for communication or consumption. Cool stuff; hard to talk about (gotta see it, feel it and try it to even start getting it).

It's kinda like the Matrix idea...it's out there, but you gotta look for it, because it's not in the mainstream. It's in garages, backyards, and hidden studios, because the public in general would consider it too hard, too confusing, or too much work. And some of it is so hard it's simple, with other stuff being so simple, it's hard.

If, to you, kenpo is rattling off definitions, memorizing equations, and whipping out techniques in sharp-n-snappy form, then don't bother looking for the Matrix. You won't like it when you find it (Take the pill that doesn't send you deeper down the rabbit hole).

1. "Old" kenpo was both more rudimentary (i.e., grab-&-beat karate), and more complex (Mr. Parkers' early addition of a heavier Chinese influence).

2. Simplified physically, but made more "interesting" academically births "mainstream" kenpo.

3. Stuff he taught some of his seniors but not all? New ideas he had been working on and cleaning up (years on some, many years on others), but either did not want to make mainstream, or was not ready to deliver to the mainstream.

I remember an interesting comment by Doc Chapel on another thread, in which he noted that none of the kenpo BB's on Martial Talk could pass one of his yellow belt tests. The immediate reaction was to assume he was not teaching kenpo. Doc's response was that, yes, he was teaching kenpo...just not the stuff everybody was used to. That there are differences in performance of the basics, cleaning up bad habits, etc., that pretty much everybody would do wrong...just because they didn't know better, and likely came from teachers who, though accomplished, probably did not know better, either. I think I may have been the only one out of the crowd of SoCal kenpoistas challenging Doc on that thread who bothered to check out the differences. He is right. A black belt in EPAK would not pass one of his yellow belt tests, and he is teaching kenpo.

To wrap up my little rant (sorry, all), I clearly remember watching Mr. Parker teaching seminars and classes to rooms full of black belts who were so entrenched in their engrained performance of a movement or idea, that they were UNABLE to change what they were doing to accomodate the lesson or tweak Mr. Parker was trying to illustrate and impart. Typically, after a couple attempts at clarification and correction, he would just forget about it and move on to the next topic. I wasn't always able to break my own baggage patterns to catch up with what I was seeing, or even see all that was going on, but it was clear to me that what he was teaching the crowd was not what the crowd was doing. I suspect he tried to disseminate his newer stuff; people just couldn't let go of their "known" material well enough to embrace and learn the "new" material.

If you view Infinite Insights and the Encyclopedia as starts meant to prompt conversation, and not a gospel meant to define or dispel it, ... Reference the perspective of a different starting point, and you end up with a different kenpo. Same material, same defs and moves, but nevertheless quite different. Mr. Parker was excellent at playing with different starting points in his mind, and exploring what new ends these alternate paths might lead to. There were a few guys around when he would go on these explorations, some taking notes furiously, some not. Some of those musings -- and the techniques, concepts, and implications stemming from them -- are in the intellectual possession of the guys who were there. Most of Mr. Parkers top-tier students, seniors, and cherished friends were simply not present during these musings, and as such did not have access to the stuff they produced. Not an issue of super-secrecy; just proxemics and timing.

D.

PS -- Please understand that I make no claim or insinuation that I am a senior student, or anything even remotely close. I am one of those hobbyists that's been around for awhile (Mr. Parker's nickname for me was "wallpapuh" because I had hung around with a low profile for so long, no one noticed me anymore), and am among the couple thousand still active (in a sea of a couple million) that has been in kenpo long enough to say "I remember when...". I've watched a lot of changes happen over time, and seen the "take" on kenpo from several oldsters presenting their kenpo. I respect them all (well, most of them...), but they do not all specialize in providing the same information for the same purposes, under the influence of the same motivations.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I don't WANT to pass one of his yellow belt tests, silly comments like that are one part of what plagues contemporary kenpo, and yours is a grossly-inadequate description of kenpo's actual history--as are all histories that separate people simply into the good and the bad.

 

[Mark Weiser]

Now just responding to this thread may offend someone lol! But I think I would like to mention something here. Are we not all, those whom practice Kenpo and live Kenpo daily, in the same family?

Is it not the point, I am sure there are myraids of opinions, to advance in the Art as it benefits the practioneer? Makin Kenpo work for you?

Kenpo I belive was to be a Art that should be progressive in nature. Not to say "My Kenpo is better and more pure than your Kenpo"

 

[GAB]

Hi,
I was at a Shorin Ryu school the other night and watching the advanced class work. 80% were Black belts of various rank.

Pretty impressive, watching them move as a unit in a dance of various katas.

The owner was telling me how old these katas were and how some have been tweeked to the western world by Tracy and Parker. (not that it is a bad thing ) It was just a spontanious statement.

I thought that was interesting since I have heard and seen the same thoughts numerous times in discussion, on boards and in person, by the older more traditional martial arts about the Katas from China, Japan and Okinawa...

He was not putting it down, just explaining where they got there information, to concieve and implement their different styles and configurations on the old stuff that has been around for centuries.

I kind of like the Kabaron Guro's thought's about Escrima and Arnis, 'It's all chicken' just served differently...I like that thought, it help's one's own digestion of the whole package(meal).

The Sensei was very proud of his traditional way of Martial Arts.

Regards, Gary

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I don't WANT to pass one of his yellow belt tests, silly comments like that are one part of what plagues contemporary kenpo, and yours is a grossly-inadequate description of kenpo's actual history--as are all histories that separate people simply into the good and the bad.

As usual, Robert, you have managed to pass critical judgement on the comments of others, without making your own contributions towards responding to the inquiry at hand. Does our proud resident deconstructionist have any input to offer directly to the query of the thread, or should I expect you to simply continue finding flaw?

I make no blanket judgements in my reply and opinions; if that is the predominant impression, ohwell..whaddyagonnado. I do attempt to offer a simplified response to a complex question that lacks verbally economic answers, presenting personal experiences with people I've met or known as example: I, to date, do not recall having met you, or knowing you. Hence, YOUR worldview and experiences, related through our intimate communication about these matters, did NOT find it's way into my reply. (imagine that) I think a safe genralization is that all people are somewhere on a continuum of "more informed" to "less informed" about pretty much anything. That is not a judgement about good or bad; people just are where they are. As the state of information changes, so does ones place on that continuum. I suspect I know far more about computers than an indigenous cattle farmer in deep Africa, but far less than pretty much any local tech.

I differ from your perspective rearding silly comments plaguing kenpo, and regard some of your offerings on these threads as belonging to the tripe plaguing contemporary kenpo. Other pollutants include the ethnocentric-like arrogance of members of various "camps" in kenpo. (happy to provide specifics in more appropriate settings, but here I suspect it would constitute "thread drift" and/or "sniping").

Rather than simply punching holes in the argument of the other guy you happen to disagree with, try this on for novelty: Offer your own answer.

Interested in YOUR response to the spirit of the query of the thread (not the arguable semantics),

Dave.

 

[rmcrobertson]

And you, Dave, clearly would not be able to pass one of the midterms for composition classes I am giving next week, and I AM teaching composition.

But don't be offended in any way, because I'm simply describing the way things are.

On other matters, well, I find your descriptions of pretty much everything fundamentally flawed, and I'd note that deconstructing the misrepresentation of reality is a fundamental critical task.

For example, this recurrent fantasy that "the masses," were given third-rate knowledge, counterbalanced by the (sometimes unspoken, but always present) fantasy that, "the elite," (among whose ranks the writer always places themselves) Have the Secrets. In the lit crit game, we call that a binary opposition, and recognize that, "coherence in contradiction expresses the force of a desire."

Ya want your solution? Fine. 1. Read Derrida, "Structure, Sign and Play in the Discourse of the Human Sciences." 2. Read something like Said's, "The World, the Text and the Critic," or Foucault's essays on history and genealogy.

But what about fixing kenpo, you say? Well, first, give it up--impossible, and a power trip anyway.

But what about the...the...secrets that "the masses," don't know? Well, you know what? Here's the secret about the secrets: THERE AREN'T ANY.

How's yer work on the forms going? I promise: you really learn them, you really practice hard, you really use your mind, you do this for years, and you will find everything you want to know. But do note that this is a radically different strategy than saying, "I have the power, and you don't, and you must Come Unto Me for the Secrets of the Power."

There are no secrets in kenpo, except the ones we keep from ourselves.

The reasons we think there are Big Secrets have to do, to start with, two issues: a) the way that some folks make secrets to pump themselves up; b) our own attempts to sneak around the corner and avoid practice and long, hard, slow work.

 

[Kenpodoc]

I have had the privilege to at least at the Seminar level meet and work with the ne guard, the mid guard and the old guard. I 've found them all impresive, full of useful information and worth working with. I also don't think the differences are as big as is frequently implied. Certainly Mr. Parker added checks as the system progressed but so did his students. Mr. Parker changed how he taught Kenpo both over time and from student to student. However the New and Old guard move too much alike for there to have been as much real change as is often implied.

Jeff

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I think it's awesome that you teach comp, Robert. Luckily, I passed fresh comp 20 years ago, and don't need to again. (phew!).

As for the implication of the author being in the know so as to create an "us and them", I would invite you to reread my posts. I am not in "the know". I do not believe all kenpo is created equal, taught equally, etc. There are those in the know...I do not include myself among them; I just happen to believe that everybody did not get the same stuff in their goody bags. I do a lot of stuff the old way, the wrong way, and the hard way. Re-learning will be a difficult and challenging task, and I am looking forward to it.

As for the forms...lotsa data; some of it inviting the practitioner to move in ways that are not "BC" (biomechanically correct), compromising harmony of structure, strength and stability. You can swing a golf club for years, get a pretty good game on, and still have room for improving your grip, stance, swing, etc. But you would have to find a golf pro who knew how to take you to the next level. And, despite your protestations, I (peronally) believe there is a next level to aspire to, and that there is information relative to that next level which has not found it's way into the bulk of AK, but that is certainly of AK origin (i.e., the mind of Mr. Parker).

Like I said...not super-secret stuff; just placement on a continuum, based on access to information available, but not always heeded.

And thanks for the references for the reading: I asked you for them on a another thread quite some time ago..was starting to think I might not get an answer.

STILL interested in your take on the differences btw various generations of kenpo practitioners, and the causes behind them. Please, keep in mind: Mr. Tatum's interpretation of kenpo, and it's history (including the presence or non-presence of information) is not the only one. Lotsa guys out there never got invited to the Gathering of Egos, but have been around as long or longer than your mentor. I'm not one of them, so please avoid using this as a binary thingy-ism statement; I am sure each oldster has their own take on history, and that it differs from every other OG's. (Does there exist a possibility for more than one reference point in a field of data?)

Keep deconstructing. I'm attempting to learn as we go. (hence, changing my position on the information continuum relative to these matters).

Regards,

Dave

 

[GAB]

Hi Robert,

I have heard this thought about the masses being taught wrong by more than one school of Martial Arts...

You are so sure of what you are saying, about this topic. I will bet you were not around when the first or second version on Ed Parkers Kenpo came out.

He changed in the middle of the stream more times then others have in their quest for the almighty dollar...The third time he got it right you say???

Others will disagree with you. The problem is you will pull the Professor routine and nothing to back it up...I know you are well worded...

I guess I will get a red mark, Oh well...

Regards, Gary

 

[rmcrobertson]

gee, GABBY, gee Kenbudo-Kai Kenpokarrghka or whatever, let me respond with the same narcissism with which I was addressed.

1. From what I can see of your writing--what was that name again? Dave? a little work on writing wouldn't hurt none at all. perhaps it would teach generosity in prose. "The Gathering of Egos." Sweet. Be sure to lecture me some more on my proper place in kenpo, won't you?

2. dear gabby hayes, let me just point out that I've no idea what Mr. parker got right when--not did I address this in any fashion.

I repeat: all this jazz is the avoidance of the long slow work of learning, and an attempt not to see the way that consumer culture insists upon the short cut.

You're happy with your teachers, your training? Mazeltov, I am happy with mine. Let me quote an old story about Mr. Parker, here's the punch line: "lengthen your own line," rather than trying to cut theirs.

Gee, it looks to be important to you to cut everybody else down. Why is that?

But then, there's not a chance in hell you'll read the stuff I suggested, is there. (Incidentally, I DID give you some references, as I always do. Did you try them?) Is there a chance in hell you'll take honest advice to heart, and just work on putting in the mat time?

There are no secrets, save for the ones we keep from ourselves.

Oh, and my take on "different generations?" Look up the stuff on genealogy; "different generations," is far too phallologocentric, too father-and-son opriented; see Harold Bloom, "The Anxiety of Influence."

This, too, ain't no big secret. Look it up.

Hey dudes, try this: MY "mentor," and there have actually been several, and the first happened to be a girl, left me more interested in kenpo, and my own practice, and students, than in them. What did yours do?

 

[GAB]

Hi Robert,

This was kind of a test case, I have been writing on this board since we had our first disa-agreement. You very seldom if ever address what I have to say, Ramble or ???

So you did. Thanks, at least I have not been put into the "do not read classification".

Since I am somewhat retired, I get to the local library quite a bit. I just went to Borders the other day and bought another book by, Mark V. Wiley about Cabales Serrada Escrima. Good stuff.

I am currently also reading a book by...Richard Rudgley, The Lost Civilizations of the Stone Age. He has some very interesting information about the Jomon Civilisation, the oldest pottery known to man and the true beginning of the Japanese people...

Yes, I will follow up your advise, on the various authors you talk about with regularity.

It is interesting to note, the the early civilizations were just as interested in the fertility of man (women and godesses along with a Phallic symbol or three) as we are today.

As far as the elite of Kenpo today. I believe Larry Tatum has that position in the Ed Parker world (according to Clyde).
Since he was anointed at the Gathering of Eagles. I would say that is true, in the Hollywood sense.

In Sparta (Greece) the Mothers would tell their sons, come home on your shield or don't come home at all, Wow! Now that is what motherhood seems to be like in the far right, still...

The Early cultures were really hung up on fertilization they worshiped it, can we ever fathom the thoughts they had regarding this???? Look how much time and energy they gave to the subject. Still do apparantly, just read the posts regarding the topic.

Your Mentor was a women, funny so was General Mac something, any relation?

He was from a long line of men in the Service to their country.

Phallocentrism, I am not sure if the word is politically correct anymore?

President Bush has held his up pretty well though.

I workout in FMA 2 to 3 times a week formally, and at other times for fun..Read voraciously, many books on many subjects, Plus I just started at a Shorin Ryu Dojo last week to see/do some of the old stuff again...History is good....Keeps me humble, LOL...

I have to give the english to you though, I still am not, nor will I ever be there. I think, I thought it was for sissies. I was wrong...Oh well, 8 out of 10 isn't bad..At least thats what my Physic. 101 Professor told me...Or maybe it was my shrink??Getting old I forget.

Regards, Gary

 

[rmcrobertson]

You know what, Gary? I couldn't care less about people's English, spelling, or any of that stuff on these forums. That's their fantasy, not mine.

What I care about--and what more and more makes me convinced it's silly to even post on these things--are ideas, differences, explanations, information. Instead, there're these endless self-aggrandizing arguments about who's got the biggest whatever.

A little touch of manners wouldn't hurt, either. What exactly is the reason for throwing in remarks about Mr. Tatum's being--your words--"anointed...in the Hollywood sense," or--your words-- "you will pull the Professor routine and nothing to back it up," or Dave's assorted cracks about, "the masses," and, "our proud resident deconstructionist...any input to offer directly to the query of the thread, or should I expect you to simply continue finding flaw?

Hell, guys, assume I'm quite wrong--happens all the time--what exactly are those sorts of cracks supposed to do that's worth doing?

You guys are happy with your studies. Me too. Mazeltov for us all. So can we skip the crappy comments? The constant jockeying for position? The confusion between new discoveries and announcing everybody else's stupidity?

I don't even necessarily disagree with some of the points. But I am heartily sick of the bad manners.

Old vs. new. How tired.

 

[Mark Weiser]

I am not sure what the personal beef is guys but can we all just get along please. The problem I see is what is going to happen to the American Kenpo as set forth today when the first generation of Black Belts pass from us and it is up to the Second or Third Generation to carry the Flag of Kenpo in the World. Would it matter who is better or who does what now?

I think we should all work together and do our personal best with the resources available to each of us to make KENPO better and stop all the divisions. I am not sure why these conversations occur. I wonder if the Senior Black Belts in Kenpo carry on like this or do they recongize each others contributions to Kenpo and give respect and honor to KENPO in doing so.

Sincerely,
Your fellow KENPOIST Mark E. Weiser

 

[GAB]

You know what, Gary? I couldn't care less about people's English, spelling, or any of that stuff on these forums. That's their fantasy, not mine.

What I care about--and what more and more makes me convinced it's silly to even post on these things--are ideas, differences, explanations, information. Instead, there're these endless self-aggrandizing arguments about who's got the biggest whatever.

A little touch of manners wouldn't hurt, either. What exactly is the reason for throwing in remarks about Mr. Tatum's being--your words--"anointed...in the Hollywood sense," or--your words-- "you will pull the Professor routine and nothing to back it up," or Dave's assorted cracks about, "the masses," and, "our proud resident deconstructionist...any input to offer directly to the query of the thread, or should I expect you to simply continue finding flaw?

Hell, guys, assume I'm quite wrong--happens all the time--what exactly are those sorts of cracks supposed to do that's worth doing?

You guys are happy with your studies. Me too. Mazeltov for us all. So can we skip the crappy comments? The constant jockeying for position? The confusion between new discoveries and announcing everybody else's stupidity?

I don't even necessarily disagree with some of the points. But I am heartily sick of the bad manners.

Old vs. new. How tired.

Hi Robert,

I was just pointing out that Larry Tatum is a lot of glitter and lights and Las Vegas Showmanship, nothing wrong with that but it is just that.

I think Ed Parkers stuff now can be considered Traditional, It goes back quite a while in America, Larry being the older style because he made his tapes over 15 years ago, or maybe I am wrong, I don't think so.

Bad manners, I am not trying to be bad mannered just pointing out your bad manners. I think we can get along, I have a lot of respect for Clyde if he thinks its good, that is good enough for me...

The reason I talked about the Professor routine is you are always talking about the tests you give and none of us can pass them, etc..

Robert, I enjoy your threads a lot. Let it go at that. I am not trying to find fault, Old and new, yes that is correct. Or it can be the new, and the older version of the same thing, only without the fluff.

Mark,
Most of the hard talk is from the seniors, regarding other seniors...
Or wannabe seniors, who are or may not be able to do the stuff any longer and want to remember the old days.

I don't think we are out of line, we are just pushing buttons, I am not offended, why should others be?

What have we said to be monitered, or corrected??? I make an observation and bring it to the forefront, what is wrong with that?

Should I say, like I did one time. I am going to say this, please don't be offended, still offended..OK....

This is a discussion about different ideas and thoughts, we are going to differ,
ok, get used to it.

You are sticking up for your Jewish religion, so what, I am not stuffing my Agnostic attitude up your nose...Give it a break...

Regards, Gary

 

[Mark Weiser]

Hmmm interesting response and all I can say is have at it guys if you two want to debate that is fine. I will step out of it and just watch. Thanks

 

[GAB]

Mark, I like your input, why take it like that.
I would enjoy some more of your thoughts. Come on you were a fighter in the post about Jewish and Palestinians, be proud of that.

Same thing with old and new thoughts on any subject...I think the best book Ed Parker wrote for me, was the first one he wrote about Kenpo Karate.
Why because it was in my time frame, showed how to fold the Gi make a fist train etc. Good stuff...Next to that is the Encyclopedia, not by him but published in his name by his son... Still all about his stuff though...

I just did not like Karate and Religion taught at the same place, still don't...

I have the utmost respect for the Karate or Kenpo or Chinese arts he blended with it. But everyone in this day and age of information, has to understand he borrowed, it was not new it was new to us in America.

Not to me, I had already been in the Marine Corp and visited those places and and had four hard years of training... We (marines)were on Okinawa since we captured it, been training in the very thing he said he invented.

Kind of a hard thing to listen to when you know better...

My thought on that one.
Regards, Gary %-}

 

[Mark Weiser]

GAB I checked your profile and we do have some things in common.

• You are former LAPD I served with the Sedgwick and Shawnee County Sheriff Depts for a bit.
• USMC I too served Active Duty USMC 1979-1983 Oknawa and 29 Palms twice there.

 

[GAB]

GAB I checked your profile and we do have some things in common.

• You are former LAPD I served with the Sedgwick and Shawnee County Sheriff Depts for a bit.
• USMC I too served Active Duty USMC 1979-1983 Oknawa and 29 Palms twice there.

Good Mark, thanks for checking me out and just not giving up on me...

We can talk somemore. G

 

[rmcrobertson]

Hey, Gary, thanks for the gratuitous insult directed at the head of my school! I honestly don't know whether to be more offended by that, or by your lack of understanding, but I do know that I don't care to try and get along with someone who writes, "I was just pointing out that Larry Tatum is a lot of glitter and lights and Las Vegas Showmanship."

Still, thanks. I find it very helpful, when I have these little discussions, to have somebody take me off the moral hook, when I feel that I've been unfair. What's more, I'm all in favor of martial arts types who have no idea what they're talking about...I figure, the more of those there are, the safer I am.

I won't be responding to you again on this thread, or at all until you apologize. Not that it matters all that much...