Elliot Rodgers: a Bizarre Fact

[wingchun100]

Abandonment issues are always fun. They sit and dream of ways to force you to abandon them.

Now THAT is a good one!

 

[granfire]

aight:

Do you teach your sons they mustn't go topless, wear shorts lest they get raped?

Does your mere existence invite raunchy behavior, eluding to the 'fact' you are expected to 'want it' and should perform?

(I am assuming the juvenile jokes are accompanied by the uneasy laughter that follows when caught in the wrong...)

Carry on.

 

[Touch Of Death]

aight:



Does your mere existence invite raunchy behavior, eluding to the 'fact' you are expected to 'want it' and should perform?

Dated her too.

 

[Steve]

I think, Granfire, that there is a disconnect here. It seems (correct me if I'm wrong) that you believe that we (men) don't believe that there are creeps out there. Also, it seems that you believe that we fail to understand that our wives, sisters, daughters have to deal with these creeps from time to time. Let me assure you that the opposite is true. As a group, I feel safe saying that we are well aware that there are creeps out there, and are quite sure that our female loved ones have to deal with them. In fact, a guy is a creep until he demonstrates otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, particularly where my daughter is involved.

AND I think we all agree that most men are not creeps.

For what it's worth, the behavior you're ascribing to all men is distasteful, and I wonder why you think that because some men do these things, all men do them.

 

[granfire]

I think, Granfire, that there is a disconnect here. It seems (correct me if I'm wrong) that you believe that we (men) don't believe that there are creeps out there. Also, it seems that you believe that we fail to understand that our wives, sisters, daughters have to deal with these creeps from time to time. Let me assure you that the opposite is true. As a group, I feel safe saying that we are well aware that there are creeps out there, and are quite sure that our female loved ones have to deal with them. In fact, a guy is a creep until he demonstrates otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, particularly where my daughter is involved.

AND I think we all agree that most men are not creeps.

For what it's worth, the behavior you're ascribing to all men is distasteful, and I wonder why you think that because some men do these things, all men do them.

No, I think that you guys are unaware of the creep parts within your own behavior.

It's ok, we have these parts we don't know we have.

What is rather saddening (even more so because it does not come as surprise) are the staunch defenses some throw up.
And I am not talking about the knuckle dragging neanderthals who made fan pages for the shooter on FB, but 'the good guys'

You know, the guys who don't see the little snides here and their, think it's perfectly fine to dismiss a woman by looks vs merit.
The people who se nothing wrong with the little boy forcing himself on the little girl on the play ground, who blame the school girls for the shootings (yes, plural) because they didn't put out. (lets not forget, we also shun girls who do, because they are sluts, not worth of protection)

I asked Ballen to ask his wife if she ever heard any of this misogynist crap.
'of course, she was a cop'
Oh, mate...I am sure she heard worse than he ever had, because, well, she's a gal.

But don't take my word for it. Bother to read the twitter feed.

You got little girls that need guidance. It's difficult in these times. As a gal, you are damned if you do, damned if you don't.

You won't have to tach your boy he should not go topless lest he be raped.
The rape prevention education is largely one sided.
Yes, I know, boys can get raped as well, but nobody really looks there, right. Not even cop and rape preventionists.

We have to work on ourselves (does tis come as a surprise to a member of a martial arts forum?) to be a better person than we were yesterday.
If we don't listen to the world around us, we won't.

Somewhere I suppose it is funny when a guy says 'women sound like the adults in the peanuts' just not in this context, or ever, really. It ain't my fault he can't pick a mate worth a flip. Do I have to endure his wrath?

 

[Touch Of Death]

No, I think that you guys are unaware of the creep parts within your own behavior.

It's ok, we have these parts we don't know we have.

What is rather saddening (even more so because it does not come as surprise) are the staunch defenses some throw up.
And I am not talking about the knuckle dragging neanderthals who made fan pages for the shooter on FB, but 'the good guys'

You know, the guys who don't see the little snides here and their, think it's perfectly fine to dismiss a woman by looks vs merit.
The people who se nothing wrong with the little boy forcing himself on the little girl on the play ground, who blame the school girls for the shootings (yes, plural) because they didn't put out. (lets not forget, we also shun girls who do, because they are sluts, not worth of protection)

I asked Ballen to ask his wife if she ever heard any of this misogynist crap.
'of course, she was a cop'
Oh, mate...I am sure she heard worse than he ever had, because, well, she's a gal.

But don't take my word for it. Bother to read the twitter feed.

You got little girls that need guidance. It's difficult in these times. As a gal, you are damned if you do, damned if you don't.

You won't have to tach your boy he should not go topless lest he be raped.
The rape prevention education is largely one sided.
Yes, I know, boys can get raped as well, but nobody really looks there, right. Not even cop and rape preventionists.

We have to work on ourselves (does tis come as a surprise to a member of a martial arts forum?) to be a better person than we were yesterday.
If we don't listen to the world around us, we won't.

Somewhere I suppose it is funny when a guy says 'women sound like the adults in the peanuts' just not in this context, or ever, really. It ain't my fault he can't pick a mate worth a flip. Do I have to endure his wrath?

Oh? Was I yelling?

 

[Tgace]

Wait...so instead of teaching people how to avoid getting mugged we should have been teaching muggers that its wrong to mug? Who knew??

Sure a woman "should" be able to walk the streets topless and not have people treat her any different than a shirtless man.

I should be able to leave all my life savings on the front lawn and not expect someone to take it too.

What world do people think they are living in?

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[Steve]

No, I think that you guys are unaware of the creep parts within your own behavior.

What do I do that's creepy, granfire? Please. Enlighten me. What about ballen, tgace, elder or wingchun100? What do they do that is creepy? What are their "creep parts?"

It's ok, we have these parts we don't know we have.

I think you need to be specific. Your vague allusions are creating what i think is intentional confusion.

What is rather saddening (even more so because it does not come as surprise) are the staunch defenses some throw up.

By people here?

And I am not talking about the knuckle dragging neanderthals who made fan pages for the shooter on FB, but 'the good guys'

Who are the good guys? I'm completely lost.

You know, the guys who don't see the little snides here and their, think it's perfectly fine to dismiss a woman by looks vs merit.

Us? Guys here? Which guys? Who the heck are you talking about?

The people who se nothing wrong with the little boy forcing himself on the little girl on the play ground, who blame the school girls for the shootings (yes, plural) because they didn't put out. (lets not forget, we also shun girls who do, because they are sluts, not worth of protection)

Where are these guys? Are they around here? I'm lost. I'm sure that guys like this exist. So, then what's your point? Are you saying that people here endorse that behavior? That we behave in such a way?

I asked Ballen to ask his wife if she ever heard any of this misogynist crap.
'of course, she was a cop'
Oh, mate...I am sure she heard worse than he ever had, because, well, she's a gal.

I asked my wife, and she thinks you're completely out in left field. She's dealt with sexists before, but nothing like you insist all women deal with all the time. She's never been stalked, creeped out or treated poorly or disadvantaged because of her gender, according to her.

I'll ask my teenage daughter tonight, but I can tell you that, despite my insistence to the contrary, she doesn't agree that all men are pigs, either. As far as I'm concerned, any guy she dates is a creep until proven otherwise. And, before you ask, the same goes for my son. He's got a knack for picking out creeps.

But don't take my word for it. Bother to read the twitter feed.

You got little girls that need guidance. It's difficult in these times. As a gal, you are damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Being quite honest here, it seems that in this thread, you're only damned if you have a penis. There is literally no way a guy could say or do anything right in this thread. Agree with you? Damned. Disagree? Double damned.

You won't have to tach your boy he should not go topless lest he be raped.
The rape prevention education is largely one sided.
Yes, I know, boys can get raped as well, but nobody really looks there, right. Not even cop and rape preventionists.

We have to work on ourselves (does tis come as a surprise to a member of a martial arts forum?) to be a better person than we were yesterday.
If we don't listen to the world around us, we won't.

This part I agree with. We all have to work on ourselves to try and be better people tomorrow than we were today.

Somewhere I suppose it is funny when a guy says 'women sound like the adults in the peanuts' just not in this context, or ever, really. It ain't my fault he can't pick a mate worth a flip. Do I have to endure his wrath?

I don't know what this means.

 

[jks9199]

I have dated some entitled creepers, and oddly enough they were women.

Yep, there are women out there who can be creepy and stalkerish. But I don't think we've hidden the issue the same way. You start describing movies & TV with stalker/scary women, and you don't get teen comedies. You get Fatal Attraction or Single White Female. Occasionally, you get a guy pursued by the oddball girl... but even that's usually played real lightly. ETA: Just thought of one example; Rose in Two and Half Men.

 

[ballen0351]

No, I think that you guys are unaware of the creep parts within your own behavior.

I dont have creep parts. I have Jerk parts but Ill expose my jerk parts to Steve just as fast as I will to you.

It's ok, we have these parts we don't know we have.

everyone but you apparently....I seem to recall you using some colorful language to describe other woman on your horse forums

What is rather saddening (even more so because it does not come as surprise) are the staunch defenses some throw up.
And I am not talking about the knuckle dragging neanderthals who made fan pages for the shooter on FB, but 'the good guys'

You wont see me defending this guy nor have I seen anyone else defend him maybe the problem is the company you keep

You know, the guys who don't see the little snides here and their, think it's perfectly fine to dismiss a woman by looks vs merit.

Who? what guys?

The people who se nothing wrong with the little boy forcing himself on the little girl on the play ground, who blame the school girls for the shootings (yes, plural) because they didn't put out. (lets not forget, we also shun girls who do, because they are sluts, not worth of protection)

Who? Not me or anyone I know again you might want to look at the company you keep

I asked Ballen to ask his wife if she ever heard any of this misogynist crap.
'of course, she was a cop'
Oh, mate...I am sure she heard worse than he ever had, because, well, she's a gal.

And you would be wrong. For the most part others treated her with respect. Woman cops in general are not treated any worse then men. The worst treatment a group of officers I've ever seen are black males

But don't take my word for it. Bother to read the twitter feed.

what twitterfeed?

You got little girls that need guidance. It's difficult in these times. As a gal, you are damned if you do, damned if you don't.

You won't have to tach your boy he should not go topless lest he be raped.

non-sense

The rape prevention education is largely one sided.
Yes, I know, boys can get raped as well, but nobody really looks there, right. Not even cop and rape preventionists.

again non-sense I can show you a large rape prevention poster directed at males Ill take a picture of it next time Im there if you would like. However statics show more woman are raped then men. Rape prevention is "one sided" because the rapist goes to prison you dont educate them you imprison them.

We have to work on ourselves (does tis come as a surprise to a member of a martial arts forum?) to be a better person than we were yesterday.
If we don't listen to the world around us, we won't.

True but we should focus on fixing actual problems to work on

Somewhere I suppose it is funny when a guy says 'women sound like the adults in the peanuts' just not in this context, or ever, really. It ain't my fault he can't pick a mate worth a flip. Do I have to endure his wrath?

Im not even sure what that means

 

[jks9199]

And unfortunately, most creeps don't KNOW they are creeps. Even if a woman tells them flat out, they think she is just being a princess. I know a guy who told me this story: he had a female friend that he met in college. They got along great. He enjoyed talking with her SO MUCH that he found out her entire class schedule...and then showed up to wait for her outside every class so they could chat as they walked to the next one. (I can only imagine her body language as they strolled!) At the conclusion of his story, he said, "She suddenly stopped talking to me. I never found out why!"

I knew why, but I didn't want to tell him. Instead I made an excuse to leave the area, and then *I* never talked to him again either!

At one job, I worked with a guy who was, at least in regard to women, dumb as a rock, and about as dense as plutonium. He was moved from site to site within the company (I forget why he was kept, but I suspect it was a highly placed relative) because a woman would be nice to him -- and he'd misunderstand it and interpret it too strongly as interest. And then he'd be around her all the time... until she complained, and he was reassigned. Today, I suspect he wouldn't have kept his job, no matter who he was related to. At least not after the second time.

I do agree; Rodgers was probably pretty high on the creep-out scale, and that was his problem. Or he was so socially clueless that he didn't know how to approach a girl. Don't know. I'm not blaming movies or TV for his actions... but I do find myself asking if what he saw in TV and movies didn't shape his expectations. I KNOW it can -- because people have entirely unrealistic expectations for forensic science thanks to shows like CSI. (Not to mention people's beliefs about the martial arts as shaped by popular culture...)

 

[jks9199]

I think, Granfire, that there is a disconnect here. It seems (correct me if I'm wrong) that you believe that we (men) don't believe that there are creeps out there. Also, it seems that you believe that we fail to understand that our wives, sisters, daughters have to deal with these creeps from time to time. Let me assure you that the opposite is true. As a group, I feel safe saying that we are well aware that there are creeps out there, and are quite sure that our female loved ones have to deal with them. In fact, a guy is a creep until he demonstrates otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, particularly where my daughter is involved.

AND I think we all agree that most men are not creeps.

For what it's worth, the behavior you're ascribing to all men is distasteful, and I wonder why you think that because some men do these things, all men do them.

The definition of a blind spot (in this usage) is that it's something you can't see in yourself until and unless someone else points it out. And sometimes not even then. Like I said... it hadn't dawned on me until I read that article which I mentioned that some of those funny nerd/geek revenge scenes were rape. Or sexual harassment or stalking. It was a blind spot.

Let me be absolutely clear -- I am not blaming TV, movies, and popular culture for Rodgers, or any other recent spree or mass killer incident. But popular culture certainly influences and shapes people's behaviors. How much, and if we want to or even have a responsibility to consider that in what we produce or support, is a discussion worth having.

 

[ballen0351]

Let me be absolutely clear -- I am not blaming TV, movies, and popular culture for Rodgers, or any other recent spree or mass killer incident. But popular culture certainly influences and shapes people's behaviors. How much, and if we want to or even have a responsibility to consider that in what we produce or support, is a discussion worth having.

When viewed in this way, our responses to the school shooters looks juvenile in comparison. Can you imagine arguing over whether misogyny made Osama Bin Laden plan September 11th? Or whether video games caused Dhokhar Tsarnaev to plant bombs at the Boston Marathon? Or whether heavy music inspired Timothy McVeigh to blow up the federal building in Oklahoma City?

You would be laughed at
And in fact, when anyone goes as far as to suggest that Islam causes terrorism, they are immediately and rightfully scolded for it. Yet when it comes to school shootings, these types of discussions are not only tolerated, but engaged in willfully.

It’s not that we should respond to school shootings the same way we respond to terrorist attacks. It’s that we already do. We just don’t realize it.

How We All Miss the Point on School Shootings

 

[Tgace]

When viewed in this way, our responses to the school shooters looks juvenile in comparison. Can you imagine arguing over whether misogyny made Osama Bin Laden plan September 11th? Or whether video games caused Dhokhar Tsarnaev to plant bombs at the Boston Marathon? Or whether heavy music inspired Timothy McVeigh to blow up the federal building in Oklahoma City?

You would be laughed at
And in fact, when anyone goes as far as to suggest that Islam causes terrorism, they are immediately and rightfully scolded for it. Yet when it comes to school shootings, these types of discussions are not only tolerated, but engaged in willfully.

It’s not that we should respond to school shootings the same way we respond to terrorist attacks. It’s that we already do. We just don’t realize it.

How We All Miss the Point on School Shootings

...and when Bill posts an opinion regarding the political leanings of a film, or implies that movie producers have political agendas he is roundly scorned and told that there is no such influence. After all "its only entertainment".

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2

 

[wingchun100]

Ah, the beauty of interpretation. People can read anything into any story/song/movie they want. You write a poem about waiting for the bus on a city street corner. Next thing you know, someone is interpreting it as an expression of repressed homosexual feelings you have...for your own father. Let's face it, folks: maybe some things have multiple meanings, but I still believe you can reach a point where a person is STRETCHING an interpretation to fit their needs.

 

[EddieCyrax]

Personal responsibility. Morals. Integrity.

All individual traits. I get exposed to all sorts of simuli every day....funny how I have never once thought to attack, force myself, or randomly kill anyone (male or female).

I find it a cop out when anyone blame inappropriate behavior on media outlets.

Bottom line the guy had mental issues, no moral compass, and thank your god he is no longer on the planet. At least he did that part right.

I told myself last night I would not waste anymore time in this type of conversation today.....and now I am going to step off the box.

Again "granfire", I wish you well.....I do not know you or the world you live in..... I hope someday you find peace and trust in your fellow humans....

 

[Instructor]

I think you missed it.
I mean it is easy to miss when you laugh.

The little things that look good in the movie or sound good in a song (Every Breath You Take - it's creepy stalkerish....)

I mean, why is it that we find the persistent advances of the precocious nerd so endearing? Just because he isn't creepy - yet? Otherwise you'd consider it stalking.

Pop in and read #YesAllWomen.
Nope, not all guys are a-holes. But pretty much every woman has at one point in her life encountered such a person who expected her to comply with his wishes for some reason or another, becoming upset when the expectations were not met. Of course not all were violent, but as a constant drip of water can hollow out stone, it is allowed to be perpetuated.
Awe, how cute, the little boy bear hugging the little girl to give her a kiss....ah, she is just playing hard to get, saying no....

or as the saying goes: 'With a guy 'No' is the end of the discussion - with a woman it's the beginning of negotiations'

Revenge of the Nerds is over 30 years old by now....and the myth that the nerd guy gets the girl is older than that. Ongoing conditioning. Sure, it's fiction, but how long can a mind resist the constant feeding of certain 'facts'?

it's not like the guy assumes he has all the answers. Consider it the fruit of his thought process.
The problem is like Ogres: It has many layers. He just peeled one away.

More food for thought. This article precedes the shooting by a few miles though:
Male Scientist Writes of Life as Female Scientist

I would just like to say that I am a geek and my wife is a very cool and beautiful woman who could have her pick of men. Not sure why she chose me but I sure am glad she did.

 

[jks9199]

When viewed in this way, our responses to the school shooters looks juvenile in comparison. Can you imagine arguing over whether misogyny made Osama Bin Laden plan September 11th? Or whether video games caused Dhokhar Tsarnaev to plant bombs at the Boston Marathon? Or whether heavy music inspired Timothy McVeigh to blow up the federal building in Oklahoma City?

You would be laughed at
And in fact, when anyone goes as far as to suggest that Islam causes terrorism, they are immediately and rightfully scolded for it. Yet when it comes to school shootings, these types of discussions are not only tolerated, but engaged in willfully.

It’s not that we should respond to school shootings the same way we respond to terrorist attacks. It’s that we already do. We just don’t realize it.

How We All Miss the Point on School Shootings

I don't know how much clearer I can be. Rodgers, Lanza, Cho, Michael Kennedy, and all the rest are individually responsible for their actions. Absolutely, and totally. So are Muhammad and Malvo. Nor do I think that video games, movies, or anything else ALONE can make someone into a killer. They started out seriously effed up. Rodgers's screwed up beliefs about what he should have were his problem, and only provided an internal justification and excuse for him to justify his actions. His problems started and ended up with HIM.

But that doesn't mean the simple discussion of whether the images we're putting out there are what we want. Do you really want rape portrayed as justifiable revenge? Stalking as a good way to get a girl? I've read accounts by male and female cosplayers (the folks who have a lot of fun running around in rather extreme, and sometimes extremely revealing, costumes of or inspired by cartoons, anime, science fiction, and the like) of the outright harassment and abuse they put up with. Isn't it at least reasonable, whatever inspired it, to look at what effect popular culture is having on people?

But let's not stop there. What about the mental health system? It certainly failed Rodgers, who had access (I presume) to much more extensive services than many people. I've had a few discussions lately inspired by a tragedy near me where police officers were forced to shoot a suicidal young man. Lanza, Cho, and Rodgers, at least, off the top of my head, all had some sort of diagnosed mental condition. Virginia state Senator Creigh Deeds's son was certainly failed by our mental health system that couldn't find him a treatment bed when he needed it; this failure almost cost the senator his life, and did cost him his son.