Electric car system that might work...

[Steve]

200 miles range is plenty for me and we have another car if we need to go further. And these days 200 miles is without an extended range pack. You can get larger ones if needed.

I drive about 5k miles a year. But even if I drove the national average of 13,500 miles per year, I’m looking at well under 200 per day. The national average distance for commute is under 20 miles, and 100 miles commute is pretty rare, statistically.

Situation hasn’t really changed much since 2012. EVs aren’t for everyone, but most (not all) concerns boil down to range anxiety and not practical barriers. For example, Guy in my neighborhood has a plug-in jeep. The charger is in the garage but the plug is long enough to reach his driveway. A lot of apartment buildings are installing chargers, as are employers.

is it right for you? Well, I mean, that’s very subjective. I don’t like flashy sports cars, but I could get by in one pretty much every day… until I need to get 3 yards of dirt home. If your entire use case is road trips, I get it.

One thing I find very compelling is just the dollars and cents involved. And this also hasn’t changed since 2012. If you drive the national average of 13,500 miles per year at 25 mpg, and let’s say you pay $4/gallon. That’s about $2,160 in gas alone. Add in 3 oil changes and you’re looking at another $150 to $200 (a little less if you do it yourself).

Cost for electricity varies from place to place. We pay a little under $.12 per kWh. Some EVs are more efficient than others, but most get at least 3 miles per kWh, some closer to 5 miles. At 3 miles per kWh, with electricity at $.12 per, if you drive 13,500 miles in a year you are looking at a little over $500 in a year to get around. No oil change. Brakes will likely last the life of the car. No real transmission to fail. All that adds up to over $1750 in savings, not to mention the value of my time spent at the shop.

Add in an additional $7500 tax credit and, if you’re lucky, some state incentives and buying the ev isn’t much more than a ICE.

 

[Dirty Dog]

200 miles range is plenty for me and we have another car if we need to go further. And these days 200 miles is without an extended range pack. You can get larger ones if needed.

The post above assumes a 400 mile range. There's absolutely nothing wrong with an EV as a commuter or local car. It's road trips where they can become dicey. If you don't road trip, or if you break up your road trips into shorter legs, the problem is very minimal. When I was a kid, road trips meant I'd drive till I couldn't, then sleep in a rest area for a bit, then drive more. Now, that 1100 mile trip to the in-laws will be two days. Drive, stop, have a nice meal, sleep; pick a hotel with superchargers and you're golden.

I drive about 5k miles a year. But even if I drove the national average of 13,500 miles per year, I’m looking at well under 200 per day. The national average distance for commute is under 20 miles, and 100 miles commute is pretty rare, statistically.

We commute 60 miles each way.

One thing I find very compelling is just the dollars and cents involved. And this also hasn’t changed since 2012. If you drive the national average of 13,500 miles per year at 25 mpg, and let’s say you pay $4/gallon. That’s about $2,160 in gas alone. Add in 3 oil changes and you’re looking at another $150 to $200 (a little less if you do it yourself).

Under normal driving conditions with synthetic oil, you only need to change it every 10,000-15,000 miles. Mobile 1 Extended Performance is guaranteed to 20,000 miles or 1 year. $26 for a jug at Walmart. $11 for a filter. It costs me about $45 to change the oil in my Vette, and that includes changing the oil in the blower.

Cost for electricity varies from place to place. We pay a little under $.12 per kWh. Some EVs are more efficient than others, but most get at least 3 miles per kWh, some closer to 5 miles. At 3 miles per kWh, with electricity at $.12 per, if you drive 13,500 miles in a year you are looking at a little over $500 in a year to get around. No oil change. Brakes will likely last the life of the car. No real transmission to fail. All that adds up to over $1750 in savings, not to mention the value of my time spent at the shop.

Tesla recommends changing the brakes every 12,500 miles. ICE vehicles need new pads every 20K or so. I typically change every 50K (because highway commutes are easier on the brakes than city) or one track day. I'm not sure why the Tesla interval is less, because their regenerative braking SHOULD mean less wear on the pads.

Add in an additional $7500 tax credit and, if you’re lucky, some state incentives and buying the ev isn’t much more than a ICE.

They're not. EV's are great. Love them. The only real problem is road tripping, and that is something that will be resolved gradually as the engineering and infrastructure improves. Or by getting old enough that 30 hour drives no longer seem like a good idea.

 

[Steve]

The post above assumes a 400 mile range. There's absolutely nothing wrong with an EV as a commuter or local car. It's road trips where they can become dicey. If you don't road trip, or if you break up your road trips into shorter legs, the problem is very minimal. When I was a kid, road trips meant I'd drive till I couldn't, then sleep in a rest area for a bit, then drive more. Now, that 1100 mile trip to the in-laws will be two days. Drive, stop, have a nice meal, sleep; pick a hotel with superchargers and you're golden.

We commute 60 miles each way.

Under normal driving conditions with synthetic oil, you only need to change it every 10,000-15,000 miles. Mobile 1 Extended Performance is guaranteed to 20,000 miles or 1 year. $26 for a jug at Walmart. $11 for a filter. It costs me about $45 to change the oil in my Vette, and that includes changing the oil in the blower.

Tesla recommends changing the brakes every 12,500 miles. ICE vehicles need new pads every 20K or so. I typically change every 50K (because highway commutes are easier on the brakes than city) or one track day. I'm not sure why the Tesla interval is less, because their regenerative braking SHOULD mean less wear on the pads.

They're not. EV's are great. Love them. The only real problem is road tripping, and that is something that will be resolved gradually as the engineering and infrastructure improves. Or by getting old enough that 30 hour drives no longer seem like a good idea.

I don’t know about Teslas, but I think you can expect your brakes to last 100k miles minimum in an EV.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hmmm... 200 miles isn't enough for the traveling I do, and I don't have a garage, so I don't know where I'd put a charger. I don't imagine stringing an extension cord out to the curb and leaving it all night would be very practical. Well, I've never had the interest or money to be an "early adopter" of tech. But change happens fast. Hopefully in a few more years, EVs will be so much the norm that a lot of these things will be worked out ...and maybe the price on used ones will be within my budget.

Getting back to the original direction of this thread, apparently the idea of battery exchange stations has been considered, tried, and so far, rejected for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that different manufacturers can't agree on a common design, as well as the fact that people like to outright own their stuff ...right down to the batteries in their cars. Saw a clip where Elon Musk said that.

Still, I always wondered why EV designers never considered a universal and standardized portable battery pack for all EVs that could be used to extend range or allow a discharged vehicle to continue on to the next charging station.

You know, something any AAA tow truck could deliver if you got stranded, just like carrying a spare gas can for gasoline powered cars. For people that travel a lot off the beaten path or who live in the boondies, something like that would make a lot of sense.

We are still very early in our transition to EVs, though. I suspect a lot of these things will develop organically over time in response to demand.

Yeah, there's still some infrastructure to be sorted.

Like you, I wonder why there hasn't been a consortium (like happens in the tech sector) to agree on some parts of this, like auxiliary battery packs.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don’t know about Teslas, but I think you can expect your brakes to last 100k miles minimum in an EV.

I've never had an EV. I assume brakes generally last longer than on ICE vehicles?

 

[Steve]

The post above assumes a 400 mile range. There's absolutely nothing wrong with an EV as a commuter or local car. It's road trips where they can become dicey. If you don't road trip, or if you break up your road trips into shorter legs, the problem is very minimal. When I was a kid, road trips meant I'd drive till I couldn't, then sleep in a rest area for a bit, then drive more. Now, that 1100 mile trip to the in-laws will be two days. Drive, stop, have a nice meal, sleep; pick a hotel with superchargers and you're golden.

We commute 60 miles each way.

Under normal driving conditions with synthetic oil, you only need to change it every 10,000-15,000 miles. Mobile 1 Extended Performance is guaranteed to 20,000 miles or 1 year. $26 for a jug at Walmart. $11 for a filter. It costs me about $45 to change the oil in my Vette, and that includes changing the oil in the blower.

Tesla recommends changing the brakes every 12,500 miles. ICE vehicles need new pads every 20K or so. I typically change every 50K (because highway commutes are easier on the brakes than city) or one track day. I'm not sure why the Tesla interval is less, because their regenerative braking SHOULD mean less wear on the pads.

They're not. EV's are great. Love them. The only real problem is road tripping, and that is something that will be resolved gradually as the engineering and infrastructure improves. Or by getting old enough that 30 hour drives no longer seem like a good idea.

I don’t know about Teslas, but I think you can expect your brakes to last 100k miles minimum.

Teslas are

I've never had an EV. I assume brakes generally last longer than on ICE vehicles?

by a ton because you hardly use them.

 

[geezer]

ICE? Like internal combustion engines? Dang, for a couple of minutes I was thinking Immigration had some kinda special vehicles....

OK, now on a more serious note, I wonder why we don't drive slot cars. I really liked my slot cars and track back when I was a kid in the 60s.

No, I am being serious ...well, sorta serious here, or about as close as I get to being serious on a forum.

I mean, if the HOV/EV lane on the freeway had an electrical pick-up, like a modern, safer version of the "third rail" on a subway line, your EV could charge as you drive, and a meter/transponder system could allow you to pay for the power you use when you exit. Sort of like a toll road.

I know people have got to be working on this, right? I'm going to do some Google searches and see what I find.


Doo, doody doo... I'm back. I found this in about 30 seconds. Like I expected, the idea is being worked on, but there are a lot of details that would need to be worked out:

Could Roads Recharge Electric Cars? The Technology May Be Close. (Published 2021)

But challenges await, including technical issues, regulatory barriers and many miles of highway.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Rich Parsons]

I've never had an EV. I assume brakes generally last longer than on ICE vehicles?

Electric Bus, With no oil changes and brakes being changed less paid for the Delta cost of the new buses in just a couple of years

 

[Rich Parsons]

Yeah, there's still some infrastructure to be sorted.

Like you, I wonder why there hasn't been a consortium (like happens in the tech sector) to agree on some parts of this, like auxiliary battery packs.

Gerry this is a very good question.

The First one is Chargers.
Nissan convinced the State of California that their Charger was the industry standard and in the end they said well it is our standard.
California had already installed a bunch and had to stop and then spend more money to install the standard.
Many other states have held off.
Ontario has done a good job of rolling them out in the mid teens.
The rest of the industry did get together on charger connection specs for the various levels of charging.
Level 1 - 120 V
Level 2 - 240 V
Level 3 - 480 V
Level 4 - 960 V

Level 3 & 4 are considered Faster Chargers
Most of the industry vehicles only support Level 3 and below (* Last I worked on EVs *)

Charge time for a vehicles that was mid 2xx's was about 10 to 12 hours on 120 V, about 6 - 8 hours on 240 V which is most home charges.
Note: These values are near out of energy of single digit Battery Capacity .
Level 3 chargers get 80 % in about 20 minutes and near 100% in 30 minutes.

All of them use the last few minutes to cycle and charge / discharge to not overheat the battery.

The physics of the faster one charges the more heat there is. So there are limitations (* Based upon battery and manufacturer *) on the number of time a Fast Charge can occur.

As to batteries, each vehicle packages them differently and even the number of cells per module and module per pack is different, not to mention the chemistry involved. My experience from 05 thru 17 was that the chemistry decided upon for the approval of the vehicle would go through variations during their early development and then Boom a break through would be available and they would step from version 1.5 or 1.x to 2.0 And by the time they went to production it would be 2.5 ish.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

ICE? Like internal combustion engines? Dang, for a couple of minutes I was thinking Immigration had some kinda special vehicles....

OK, now on a more serious note, I wonder why we don't drive slot cars. I really liked my slot cars and track back when I was a kid in the 60s.

No, I am being serious ...well, sorta serious here, or about as close as I get to being serious on a forum.

I mean, if the HOV/EV lane on the freeway had an electrical pick-up, like a modern, safer version of the "third rail" on a subway line, your EV could charge as you drive, and a meter/transponder system could allow you to pay for the power you use when you exit. Sort of like a toll road.

I know people have got to be working on this, right? I'm going to do some Google searches and see what I find.


Doo, doody doo... I'm back. I found this in about 30 seconds. Like I expected, the idea is being worked on, but there are a lot of details that would need to be worked out:

Could Roads Recharge Electric Cars? The Technology May Be Close. (Published 2021)

But challenges await, including technical issues, regulatory barriers and many miles of highway.

www.nytimes.com

It seems like a larger version of the wireless charging of phones could work, even with existing EVs (by adding a charge receiver), though I think that's pretty lossy, which would be a problem at that scale. I haven't had a chance to look at the link you posted (taking a break from tax stuff), but it looks like it might be related.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Gerry this is a very good question.

The First one is Chargers.
Nissan convinced the State of California that their Charger was the industry standard and in the end they said well it is our standard.
California had already installed a bunch and had to stop and then spend more money to install the standard.
Many other states have held off.
Ontario has done a good job of rolling them out in the mid teens.
The rest of the industry did get together on charger connection specs for the various levels of charging.
Level 1 - 120 V
Level 2 - 240 V
Level 3 - 480 V
Level 4 - 960 V

Level 3 & 4 are considered Faster Chargers
Most of the industry vehicles only support Level 3 and below (* Last I worked on EVs *)

Charge time for a vehicles that was mid 2xx's was about 10 to 12 hours on 120 V, about 6 - 8 hours on 240 V which is most home charges.
Note: These values are near out of energy of single digit Battery Capacity .
Level 3 chargers get 80 % in about 20 minutes and near 100% in 30 minutes.

All of them use the last few minutes to cycle and charge / discharge to not overheat the battery.

The physics of the faster one charges the more heat there is. So there are limitations (* Based upon battery and manufacturer *) on the number of time a Fast Charge can occur.

As to batteries, each vehicle packages them differently and even the number of cells per module and module per pack is different, not to mention the chemistry involved. My experience from 05 thru 17 was that the chemistry decided upon for the approval of the vehicle would go through variations during their early development and then Boom a break through would be available and they would step from version 1.5 or 1.x to 2.0 And by the time they went to production it would be 2.5 ish.

Once again, I pine for the old "informative" rating. Thanks, Rich!!

 

[Dirty Dog]

I've never had an EV. I assume brakes generally last longer than on ICE vehicles?

They should, yes. At least on any vehicle with regenerative charging. Using the motor to slow the car and convert that kinetic energy back into electrical energy should mean you don't use your actual brakes nearly as much. I don't know why Tesla says 12K, unless (unfounded idle speculation based on nothing ahead) they pinched pennies on the brakes to cut costs.

 

[Steve]

I've never had an EV. I assume brakes generally last longer than on ICE vehicles?

Tesla recommends you clean and lubricate your calipers every 12,500 miles but your brakes should last you well over 100k before they need to be replaced.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Tesla recommends you clean and lubricate your calipers every 12,500 miles but your brakes should last you well over 100k before they need to be replaced.

That makes much more sense. I apparently misread.

 

[Steve]

That makes much more sense. I apparently misread.

Yup. There’s a lesson in there for those who care to learn it.

 

[geezer]

Yup. There’s a lesson in there for those who care to learn it.

Not me. I continually mis-read (and mis-hear) stuff, and it seems to be getting worse every year. On the up-side, it makes for some unintentionally funny statements. Sometimes I think students sign up for my classes just for amusement.

But, you know, I'm good with whatever keeps enrollment up! If my classes don't "make", I'll have to get a real job.

 

[Steve]

Not me. I continually mis-read (and mis-hear) stuff, and it seems to be getting worse every year. On the up-side, it makes for some unintentionally funny statements. Sometimes I think students sign up for my classes just for amusement.

But, you know, I'm good with whatever keeps enrollment up! If my classes don't "make", I'll have to get a real job.

Everyone mis-reads stuff, from time to time. But confidently passing along misinformation without thinking critically is avoidable, as is believing it without critical thought.