Elbow Strike : Really Just a Bong Sau.

[mook jong man]

In my opinion if you analyse closely the mechanics of the elbow strike what you find is that it is almost identical to the mechanics of executing a Bong Sau ,or to be more accurate , a Chum Kiu Bong Sau.
The way you generate the force with your elbow strike or a Bong Sau is exactly the same.

The only difference being that the elbow strike is just a condensed version of the Chum Kiu Bong Sau as the wrist comes back towards the body and the elbow goes to the centre , but the circular motion of the elbow is the same .

Although when I first start teaching the students the elbow I start them off with a very large exaggerated rotary action , once they can do that without leaning or otherwise compromising their structure , they will then start to reduce the size of the circle that the elbow travels .

They will then be left with an elbow strike that is fast , economical in movement and powerful.

 

[cwk]

In our fundamental 13 hands, we are taught bong elbow with the wrist coming back to the body not the usual bong sao with the hand going forward. It can be used as a strike, to deflect, to collapse a persons bridge or to trap.

 

[mook jong man]

In our fundamental 13 hands, we are taught bong elbow with the wrist coming back to the body not the usual bong sao with the hand going forward. It can be used as a strike, to deflect, to collapse a persons bridge or to trap.

Yeah but what I'm getting at , is that when you do your actual elbow strike , say with a pivot .
You initiate the movement from your elbow like you are going to do a Bong Sau except the arc that the elbow travels in is now extended into a larger circle and then crashes down into the target.

When it's done properly it hits the kick shield like a sledgehammer and you feel the shock go down into your legs , as opposed to an elbow strike that travels in a horizontal path and feels more like a pushing kind of force and seems a lot less damaging to me.

 

[geezer]

In my opinion if you analyse closely the mechanics of the elbow strike what you find is that it is almost identical to the mechanics of executing a Bong Sau...

Mook, you are clearly a "big-picture guy", or someone who tends to "see-the forest rather than the leaves of the tree". I'm the same way. After a while almost everything we do in WC seems to just be an expression of the same energies. Bong is just tan rolled over, Tan and bong are just a strike that has been bent or flexed by an opposing force, a punch is just the compressed and flexed bong, tan, etc. that is released to go forward... the same goes for stances, steps, even kicks...after a while it seems like it's all one big gestalt (whose perfect execution still eludes me). When I try to put this into words, it usually confuses the hell out of students and angers those WC pedants who are hung up on details of articulation, but it makes perfect sense to me. And, no, I don't do drugs!!!

 

[cwk]

Yeah but what I'm getting at , is that when you do your actual elbow strike , say with a pivot .
You initiate the movement from your elbow like you are going to do a Bong Sau except the arc that the elbow travels in is now extended into a larger circle and then crashes down into the target.

When it's done properly it hits the kick shield like a sledgehammer and you feel the shock go down into your legs , as opposed to an elbow strike that travels in a horizontal path and feels more like a pushing kind of force and seems a lot less damaging to me.

I'd definitely agree that using a tight arc seems to generate a more devastating elbow strike than one on just a horizontal path. Especially if you twist the whole torso first, then bring the elbow around in the arc and then sink the hips and knees with a snap as you make contact, all in one fluid movement.
I've knocked people straight off their feet with bong jang/jern. It works really well if you attack with a lead chung choi and when they try to block, collapse in to bong jern to their chest, using the body mechanics mentioned, and at the right moment "nudge" their leg with the outside of your lead knee and watch them fall.

 

[mook jong man]

I'd definitely agree that using a tight arc seems to generate a more devastating elbow strike than one on just a horizontal path. Especially if you twist the whole torso first, then bring the elbow around in the arc and then sink the hips and knees with a snap as you make contact, all in one fluid movement.
I've knocked people straight off their feet with bong jang/jern. It works really well if you attack with a lead chung choi and when they try to block, collapse in to bong jern to their chest, using the body mechanics mentioned, and at the right moment "nudge" their leg with the outside of your lead knee and watch them fall.

Yep that's what I'm talking about , we usually do about four punches to the head followed by the elbow , and if there is a lead leg in the way we will sweep that at the same time.

 

[mook jong man]

Mook, you are clearly a "big-picture guy", or someone who tends to "see-the forest rather than the leaves of the tree". I'm the same way. After a while almost everything we do in WC seems to just be an expression of the same energies. Bong is just tan rolled over, Tan and bong are just a strike that has been bent or flexed by an opposing force, a punch is just the compressed and flexed bong, tan, etc. that is released to go forward... the same goes for stances, steps, even kicks...after a while it seems like it's all one big gestalt (whose perfect execution still eludes me). When I try to put this into words, it usually confuses the hell out of students and angers those WC pedants who are hung up on details of articulation, but it makes perfect sense to me. And, no, I don't do drugs!!!

I reckon it's just human nature to try and look for commonalities and patterns in things in order to simplify and make it easier to wrap your head around the information.

 

[cwk]

One thing I will say about correct elbow technique, and this is something that I've noticed a lot of wing chun people on Y.T doing wrong, is that the elbow should snap back after contact. To do this your shoulder must be completely relaxed and your wrist facing towards yourself (wrist touching your own body is a good way to teach this) and fingers pointing down and away from you on contact.
I see a lot of people just leaving the elbow there at the point of contact and I can't see how there can be proper energy transfer without the snap.

 

[geezer]

One thing I will say about correct elbow technique, and this is something that I've noticed a lot of wing chun people on Y.T doing wrong, is that the elbow should snap back after contact... I see a lot of people just leaving the elbow there at the point of contact and I can't see how there can be proper energy transfer without the snap.

Not sure what you mean here. A lot of times an elbow flows through, coninuing downward into a momentary trap or pin, or rolling through, then unfolding into a fak-sau to the neck, etc. Other times you will see elbows used repeatedly in a hacking motion to the head or neck. Perhaps you could post a clip of what you find objectionable?

 

[cwk]

@Geezer.
Yeah, sorry about that, I typed my last post out in a hurry as i was on the way out and didn't realize how unclear it was.
I didn't mean in a trapping situation or anything like that. I was specifically talking about a single knockout strike with the elbow and that it should be completely relaxed so that it naturally "snaps" back on contact once the energy has been transfered, just like the chung choi.
I can't find any wing chun guys explaining it but here's a MT guy talking about pretty much the same thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_1OEIx3b7Y&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

sorry for any confusion.

 

[mook jong man]

@Geezer.Yeah, sorry about that, I typed my last post out in a hurry as i was on the way out and didn't realize how unclear it was. I didn't mean in a trapping situation or anything like that. I was specifically talking about a single knockout strike with the elbow and that it should be completely relaxed so that it naturally "snaps" back on contact once the energy has been transfered, just like the chung choi.I can't find any wing chun guys explaining it but here's a MT guy talking about pretty much the same thing.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_1OEIx3b7Y&feature=mfu_in_order&list=ULsorry for any confusion.

If you mean that it should be relaxed and naturally spring back into the guard position then I agree , that should apply to all Wing Chun technique.

 

[KamonGuy2]

This is an interesting post. The big problem I have with the comparison between bong sao and an albow strike is that you are using a slightly different structure for the two techniques. A good bong sao should present the soft part of the forearm (picture the hand turned towards your opponent with the forearm straight). The elbow attacks using the 'boney' part of the forearm. The idea being that the fleshy area of the forearm is more sensitive to deflect an opponents punch. The boney part of the forearm is ideal to cause maximum damage to your opponent

Of course it does depend on what elbow strike you perform! There are a few different ones!

 

[wtxs]

This is an interesting post. The big problem I have with the comparison between bong sao and an albow strike is that you are using a slightly different structure for the two techniques. Of course it does depend on what elbow strike you perform! There are a few different ones!

You are correct, the bong use slight different structure depending on the type of elbow strike.

The exception IMHO is the elbow "punch" - for lack of proper term. The bong is an forward drilling motion, the elbow collapse after contact/deflection similar to the lop sao, and the elbow continues straight forward into an "biu elbow" to the face/neck/chest.

 

[geezer]

You are correct, the bong use slight different structure depending on the type of elbow strike.

The exception IMHO is the elbow "punch" - for lack of proper term. The bong is an forward drilling motion, the elbow collapse after contact/deflection similar to the lop sao, and the elbow continues straight forward into an "biu elbow" to the face/neck/chest.

Proper term? "Ding Jarn" in WT branches.

 

[geezer]

Okay, I got called away in the middle of editing this, so now I'm back to finish the job! If you are referring to the elbow that "happens" when your opponent's arm bends your bong-sau back double and you roll over his arm hitting him on the chest (if you are being nice) with the point of your elbow, that would probably be what we call kup-jarn.

The main terms we use for elbows in our branch are, "ding jarn"--the "hacking" elbow application to the lan-sau in Chum Kiu, and the three elbows in our version of Biu Tze. They are, in order of appearance: kup, gwai and pai. Kup jarn rolls over the top and hits with a downward "bowing" movement, and for this reason is also called "kowing elbow" (from the term "kowtow"). Gwai is a diagonal downward slashing elbow that can hit and also pin or trap. Pai comes horizontally and laterally with a turn, and also hits with the point. It is also sometimes referred to as "ding jarn" since it is really just an advanced articulation of the horizontal elbow from Chum Kiu.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Okay, I got called away in the middle of editing this, so now I'm back to finish the job! If you are referring to the elbow that "happens" when your opponent's arm bends your bong-sau back double and you roll over his arm hitting him on the chest (if you are being nice) with the point of your elbow, that would probably be what we call kup-jarn.

The main terms we use for elbows in our branch are, "ding jarn"--the "hacking" elbow application to the lan-sau in Chum Kiu, and the three elbows in our version of Biu Tze. They are, in order of appearance: kup, gwai and pai. Kup jarn rolls over the top and hits with a downward "bowing" movement, and for this reason is also called "kowing elbow" (from the term "kowtow"). Gwai is a diagonal downward slashing elbow that can hit and also pin or trap. Pai comes horizontally and laterally with a turn, and also hits with the point. It is also sometimes referred to as "ding jarn" since it is really just an advanced articulation of the horizontal elbow from Chum Kiu.

Just so I understand your system - what do you call the elbows used in the first section of the third form? We call them gwai jarn, but just interested if its the same term in your organisation

 

[geezer]

Just so I understand your system - what do you call the elbows used in the first section of the third form? We call them gwai jarn, but just interested if its the same term in your organisation

Originally the WT Biu Tze only used the downward-striking "kup jarn". Sometime in the late '80s after a couple of research trips back to Fatshan, Leung Ting changed the Biu Tze form he taught to include 12 elbow strikes using three distinct techniques, kup jarn or "covering elbow", repeated three times to each side, gwai jarn or "diagonal slashing elbow" done twice to each side, and pai jarn, a sort of horizontally delivered, folding "butting" elbow repeated once to each side, making a total of 12 elbow strikes counting both sides. All three look somewhat similar to the casual eye but have different energies and applications.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Originally the WT Biu Tze only used the downward-striking "kup jarn". Sometime in the late '80s after a couple of research trips back to Fatshan, Leung Ting changed the Biu Tze form he taught to include 12 elbow strikes using three distinct techniques, kup jarn or "covering elbow", repeated three times to each side, gwai jarn or "diagonal slashing elbow" done twice to each side, and pai jarn, a sort of horizontally delivered, folding "butting" elbow repeated once to each side, making a total of 12 elbow strikes counting both sides. All three look somewhat similar to the casual eye but have different energies and applications.

Thats interesting - thats pretty much how we do the form too