Elbow pain from framing?

[Ivan]

Hi guys, I have been struggling with elbow pain for a while now. Two months ago I completely stopped BJJ and have been doing work with a sports physio ever since then. At the time, because I tend to train with gi more than no gi, and I have a very full training schedule, 16-20 hours weekly, the physio said that my forearm muscles were extremely tight, possibly causing chronic compartment syndrome, as a result of death grips and forced pulling motions with the gi. A few weeks ago he cleared me to begin training and he said he wanted me to build up to 4 sessions weekly. 1 session the first week, 2 the second week, etc until I could consistently train for 4 sessions weekly with no issues.

Today was supposed to be the first session of the 4th week but my elbow pain flared up for the first time again. We were drilling toreando passes and there were two moments that stand out to me. The first was when I did my pass, and extended my arm to drive the opponent's leg away from me whilst I passed to side control. This began a very tiny aggravation, but it was so small I thought I was imagining it. The next was when my partner did the pass to me. He came down into side control and smashed right into my frames, almost instantly flaring up the pain in my left elbow. It's a debilitating pain, mainly on the inside of my elbow, my elbow pit, and my tricep area.

I know that there is probably something I am doing wrong - maybe I am framing incorrectly? I was hoping someone with more experience could tell me whether it is possible for frames to cause elbow pain, and if so, what the issue with my frames might be. Thank you.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yeah, it's entirely likely that your injury is exposing technical flaws in your frames that you wouldn't feel the same way if your elbow was healthy.

The key to framing is that you want your frames aligned to that the force applied by your opponent is transmitted directly through your skeletal structure all the way to the ground without applying torque to your joints. I drew a quick sketch to illustrate the concept. Please excuse my poor drawing skills with a mouse.

 

[Ivan]

Yeah, it's entirely likely that your injury is exposing technical flaws in your frames that you wouldn't feel the same way if your elbow was healthy.

The key to framing is that you want your frames aligned to that the force applied by your opponent is transmitted directly through your skeletal structure all the way to the ground without applying torque to your joints. I drew a quick sketch to illustrate the concept. Please excuse my poor drawing skills with a mouse.
View attachment 29474

Thanks for the diagram and the quick reply, both are quite helpful. I believe I am guilty of the second example in the middle, but I can't quite comprehend where the torque would be placed on the third example, on the right, and why it is damaging. Could you please explain that a little further? Also, where would it be best to frame with on this same example?

Also, I believe that poor framing itself may have been the cause of the injury. If I have been framing incorrectly throughout the entirety or majority of my sessions, it would be plausible that stress on the elbows accumulated over time. This would explain why the pain was on both of my elbows, and why the pain occured during no-gi sessions as well. My physio believed that if gripping was the issue, during the time when I began treatment, my elbows were so irritated that even simple no gi grips such as arm drags could flare it up. However, this morning's session was quite illuminating. I hope that this is good news, because if the root of my elbow issues is simply framing technique, then I should be able to correct it relatively easily.

Lastly, do you have any videos you could recommend on learning to frame correctly? It is clear that my knowledge or application so far, are flawed. Thanks again!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In the second bad example, the initial primary torque would be hitting the shoulder. However there would also be a temptation to push with the triceps once you feel the frame collapsing, which would add stress to the elbow as well.

I'm not sure whether I've seen anything good on YouTube showing the subtleties of framing. I'll look around and if I can't find anything I'll try to record a short video showing some important concepts.

 

[Ivan]

In the second bad example, the initial primary torque would be hitting the shoulder. However there would also be a temptation to push with the triceps once you feel the frame collapsing, which would add stress to the elbow as well.

I'm not sure whether I've seen anything good on YouTube showing the subtleties of framing. I'll look around and if I can't find anything I'll try to record a short video showing some important concepts.

I see, thank you. If you by any chance come across something online, or decide to film a video yourself, either would be greatly appreciated. I will also update this thread, and reply to one of your comments with what my physio says tomorrow in case he says something either you or someone in the future would find useful.

 

[skribs]

Yeah, it's entirely likely that your injury is exposing technical flaws in your frames that you wouldn't feel the same way if your elbow was healthy.

The key to framing is that you want your frames aligned to that the force applied by your opponent is transmitted directly through your skeletal structure all the way to the ground without applying torque to your joints. I drew a quick sketch to illustrate the concept. Please excuse my poor drawing skills with a mouse.

You can draw straight lines in MS Paint using the line option. Come on, man!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

You can draw straight lines in MS Paint using the line option. Come on, man!

It had been many years since I used MS Paint for anything and I had 10 minutes before a work meeting. If I had more time I could probably remember how things work and do a better job.

 

[skribs]

It had been many years since I used MS Paint for anything and I had 10 minutes before a work meeting. If I had more time I could probably remember how things work and do a better job.

Actually half the drawings I do in paint, are actually done in powerpoint and copied into paint.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I see, thank you. If you by any chance come across something online, or decide to film a video yourself, either would be greatly appreciated. I will also update this thread, and reply to one of your comments with what my physio says tomorrow in case he says something either you or someone in the future would find useful.

Okay, here you go. Decided to cover some concepts on framing in class tonight and recorded the first bit of the lesson just for you. The volume is a little low, but hopefully you can follow everything clearly.

 

[drop bear]

I see, thank you. If you by any chance come across something online, or decide to film a video yourself, either would be greatly appreciated. I will also update this thread, and reply to one of your comments with what my physio says tomorrow in case he says something either you or someone in the future would find useful.

Also if you are pushing. Then you are not really creating structures.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

@Ivan , let me know if you have any more questions after watching the video. I went over some additional details and considerations later in class, but I thought the part I recorded was most relevant to the problem you were reporting.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Okay, here you go. Decided to cover some concepts on framing in class tonight and recorded the first bit of the lesson just for you. The volume is a little low, but hopefully you can follow everything clearly.

Thank you so much! That was awesome! You should make more videos.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Thank you so much! That was awesome! You should make more videos.

I was considering starting a series of regular videos a while back, but I realized that for most of the topics I wanted to cover, someone else who was more qualified was already doing a better job of it.

However if you or anyone else has specific questions on a subject that I can’t find already explained by someone else, I’d be happy to make a video showing what I have to say on the matter.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I was considering starting a series of regular videos a while back, but I realized that for most of the topics I wanted to cover, someone else who was more qualified was already doing a better job of it.

However if you or anyone else has specific questions on a subject that I can’t find already explained by someone else, I’d be happy to make a video showing what I have to say on the matter.

Well your style of commentary was more relatable than most I have seen. I appreciate that style of teaching, again, I wish I was closer to some people here. I would dearly love to train with you and some others here if I had the opportunity.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Well your style of commentary was more relatable than most I have seen. I appreciate that style of teaching, again, I wish I was closer to some people here. I would dearly love to train with you and some others here if I had the opportunity.

If you’re ever in my neck of the woods, I’d love to meet up and trade ideas and information. Unfortunately I no longer have family in Northern California, so I don’t think I’ll be coming out your way any time soon.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

If you’re ever in my neck of the woods, I’d love to meet up and trade ideas and information. Unfortunately I no longer have family in Northern California, so I don’t think I’ll be coming out your way any time soon.

I doubt I would have much to offer you other than tuition for classes. I certainly would take you up on it if i get the opportunity. Thank you.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I doubt I would have much to offer you other than tuition for classes. I certainly would take you up on it if i get the opportunity. Thank you.

You have, what, 25 years of training experience? Largely in arts which I've had only minimal exposure to? I'm willing to bet I could pick your brain for some useful stuff. I didn't get as far as I have without stealing ideas and inspiration from everybody I've had the opportunity to train with.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I doubt I would have much to offer you other than tuition for classes. I certainly would take you up on it if i get the opportunity. Thank you.

I think you might be selling yourself short here

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think you might be selling yourself short here

Thank you. That is generous. I hold myself to a high standard. I realize how much I don’t know every time I teach. My goal is to always remain a student so that I keep myself open to learning new things about martial arts in general.

 

[Flying Crane]

Okay, here you go. Decided to cover some concepts on framing in class tonight and recorded the first bit of the lesson just for you. The volume is a little low, but hopefully you can follow everything clearly.

You have a clear instructional style. That is a skill not everyone has.