Effectiveness

[kimura]

Originally posted by Yari




In Aikido there is no difference between grabs or strikes.
Aikido bases it's movements on reacting to the "energi", so if it's a grab or strike, it'll be the same.

But it is harder to learn to defend yourself against a punch, than grab, that's why , I think, that aikido allways starts off with grabs.

/Yari

Really good answer. It is mistaken by many aikido teachers, that a grab as Aihanmi and gyakuhanmi are actual attacks. They are not !!! However, because of the grabs it is easier to understand the flow of energy in an attack. If we begin our practice with kicks and strikes and not grabs, the students often end up blocking the energy, which is a major mistake in Aikido. The grab is a prestep towards understanding harder energy as in the punch. This does not mean that students should not practice punch and kicks, but they have to be aware of the flow in energy of an attack first !

 

[kimura]

Originally posted by Bushido

I think that the way aikidoka throws punch are unrealistic. They "give" their arm to the defender. If an aikidoka had to defend himself on the streets vs punch, he would have an enormous surprise. Give the attacker a pair of light-impact gloves and make him attack, you'll see. I think it would be nice to re-think the way aikidoka punch to adapt it to real self-defence and keep aikido evolving bacause, like Christian Tissier Sensei said: "Aikido should not be a conclusion, a rigid responce, it should flow and adapt to modern day people in its defensive form".

Peace

-Bushido

I agree that many aikidoka cannot throw a good punch, but it is a mistake to think that this is because of Aikido itself. In many dojos they actually learn punching too. I practiced for a few years in Japan, where one of the Aikido senseis used to be a pro boxer, before he learned Aikido. He teaches many ways of punching, but he also teaches effective Aikido against Boxing. In Aikido we do not "give" our arm to the defender, but we give energy in the form of a grab, punch or kick. It is up to the defender to use that energy as he finds acceptable in the principles of Aikido.

 

[Bushido]

I respect all of your ideas and opinion, but personnaly, I dont think you know what a real agression is.

Peace

-Bushido

 

[kimura]

Originally posted by Bushido

I respect your point :asian:, but even having seen high level Aikido Masters in action, it is still unrealistic to me. There is no way an aikidoka will grab "wild punchs" street type attacks. NO way. In a real confrontation, there is not only one big punch thrown that you can use against the attacker, there is a serie of fast wild punch. Aikido against grabs is awesome, I admit that. The real world is not West Side Story, it is simple, direct, brutal.

-Bushido :samurai:

I do not know how much Aikido you have seen, but read what I wrote earlier about one of my Aikido teachers in Japan who used to be a proboxer.

Another thing. Aikido is not all about catching the arm that is being ounched with. First of all it is about Maai 'distance', then Timing, and if you have the right timing, you can grab the arm, but you can also go to the body, and then it does not matter if a person jabs or do other strange 'unexpected' movements.

 

[kimura]

Originally posted by arnisador

I think old_sempai makes a couple of good points--one being that a block per se need not be done but that a punch could be redirected; the other is that such a technique may make the person look like they did this to themselves--avoiding certain legal issues.

I wonder why you and several others keep talking about blocks and parries. I have practiced Aikido for several years, and I have never met a teacher (or when I teach myself) who teaches blocks in Aikido. However, I always teach that there are no blocks in Aikido as it is a waste of time and also a creator of who is biggest and strongest.

Please tell me in which Aikido styles they block and parry, as I would really like to see that kind of Aikido. To me that sounds like European Ju-Jitsu !?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by kimura

I wonder why you and several others keep talking about blocks and parries.

I was saying just the opposite--that blocking is not the only way of dealing with an attack. Energy could be redirected, or blended with, without doing what one would think of as a block.

As to your question, "Complete Aikido" by R. Suenaka with C. Watson (Tuttle, 1997, paperback) describes some techniques as parries (in in mune-tsuki kubi-otoshi tenkan, pg.250, and mune-tsuki kokyu-nage irimi, pg.252), deflections (in mune-tsuki ude-osae tenkan, pg.253), and the like.

Please tell me in which Aikido styles they block and parry, as I would really like to see that kind of Aikido.

This style is Suenaka-ha Tetsugaku-ho Aikido (Wadokai organization). A web search on the name turns up several links:
http://suenakaaikido.tripod.com/abc's_of_aikido.htm
http://www.geocities.com/j_s_kelley/AikidoVideo.htm

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Bushido

I respect all of your ideas and opinion, but personnaly, I dont think you know what a real agression is.

Peace

-Bushido

Kimura and me have the same answers, so I'm not sure who your ansering to, but it really doesn't matter when it applies as an answer to what we both mean.

Just because I don't agree, you think I don't understand and haven't tried it?

That's your opinion, and nothing more.

/Yari

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by arnisador



This style is Suenaka-ha Tetsugaku-ho Aikido (Wadokai organization). A web search on the name turns up several links:
http://suenakaaikido.tripod.com/abc's_of_aikido.htm
http://www.geocities.com/j_s_kelley/AikidoVideo.htm

This looks interestting.
Thanks for the post!

But I got to add that the video from both links don't show any "blocks". And it makes me think that we have to be clear on what we mean by blocks... My opinion is that blocks are force to force (an arnis metaphor), but what I'm thinking of is a go-with-the-force metaphor.

But I've never heard of Suenaka-ha Tetsugaku-ho Aikido or seen it. It would be very interessting to try.

/Yari

 

[kimura]

Sorry about implying that you talked about blocking as Aikido. I noticed that several mentioned blocking, and to me just mentioning blocking and Aikido is a misunderstanding of Aikidos principles. So sorry about that. It was not you I wanted to pick on !!:asian:

 

[kimura]

I forgot to say that the former was written as a reply to arnisador !!

 

[kimura]

Originally posted by arnisador



This style is Suenaka-ha Tetsugaku-ho Aikido (Wadokai organization). A web search on the name turns up several links:
http://suenakaaikido.tripod.com/abc's_of_aikido.htm
http://www.geocities.com/j_s_kelley/AikidoVideo.htm

The link you attached with the video, shown perfectly well, what has been discussed earlier, that some Aikidoka cannot throw a decent punch... It really s.... !!

 

[Aikikitty]

I can't throw a decent punch! My sensei (when he has time) will try to help me to punch/attack better (I'm a lousy uke ) but right now I still punch like a weak girl whose grew up with her mother telling her never to hit anybody. Which, in fact, is true! :shrug:

Robyn

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by kimura

I forgot to say that the former was written as a reply to arnisador !!

Thanks, I understood! I did Aikido for a year many years ago and found it most interesting. I did come away with some understanding of how one blends with the opponent's energy rather than trying to stop his or her force. Fascinating stuff, but I always felt that Aikido wasn't for me because I wasn't fast enough--I'm below average in speed and the techniques seemed to me to require speed. Perhaps if I had stuck with it I would have changed my mind, but I went to Goju-Ryu Karate which was a good fit for me.

 

[arnisador]

In thinking about it, I really only did Aikido for one semester.

I was at the bookstore earlier today. In Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere : An Illustrated Introduction
by Adele Westbrook and Oscar Ratti the term parry is also often used--parry an attack at the start of a technique. This raises the question of course just what is meant by "parry" when used by these authors.

 

[kimura]

Originally posted by arnisador

In thinking about it, I really only did Aikido for one semester.

I was at the bookstore earlier today. In Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere : An Illustrated Introduction
by Adele Westbrook and Oscar Ratti the term parry is also often used--parry an attack at the start of a technique. This raises the question of course just what is meant by "parry" when used by these authors.

I really like that book !!! However, using the word parry or block makes many students misunderstand the idea of Aikido.

What style did you practice. I have seen and tried different styles myself, and even though there is similarities in the principles of Aikido, there is a world of differences in the actual performance of the techniques. The style I fell for was made by Shoji Nishio. He has tried to make a dynamic Aikido, which takes defence against other martial arts into consideration (mainly Karate as he is 6 th or 7th Dan), and not only some street punk. Nishio Senseis way of moving seems really fast when he is attacked, but actually it is more about timing. He is 74 years old, and not fast at all, but his timing makes him seem really fast + he is only moving "enough" and nothing more when he is attacked. After practicing in Japan at his dojo for about 2½ years, he made me realize that Aikido is not about doing ikkyo, shihonage or other known traditional techniques. He made me come to a conclusion that when doing Aikido some Aikido principles has to be followed. From that time I made 3 principles of doing Aikido, which I always include in my classes:
1. Never go against the energy
2. Never use force (not more than it takes to lift 2 litres of milk from the floor)
3. Never open yourself unless you need energy

If these principles are withheld I believe it can be called Aikido no matter what kind of technique is performed. Of course it could be argued that there should be a fourth principle which is about not hurting the opponent, but showing him the way of peaceful solution, but I think this should be a principle of life, and therefore integrated in all, and thereby also Aikido.

Sorry for the bla. bla. bla. on the comment on a book...

 

[kimura]

Originally posted by The Opal Dragon

I can't throw a decent punch! My sensei (when he has time) will try to help me to punch/attack better (I'm a lousy uke ) but right now I still punch like a weak girl whose grew up with her mother telling her never to hit anybody. Which, in fact, is true! :shrug:

Robyn

The best way to learn to understand the defence in Aikido is to understand an attack, so study attacks in fx. boxing, karate etc. that way you both learn to give a realistic energy in your uke performance and you learn the weaknesses of other arts, which helps you close the gaps of weaknesses in your own style...!:asian:

 

[arnisador]

I am pretty sure I studied standard Aikido, but it was a long time ago.

 

[nbcdecon]

I have learned some of the Aikido here in Japan not so much to be a great source on the subject but the stuff I was introduced to is much like the S.C.A.R.S system with my Sensei head butting and finger jabbing us to show the combat applications of the take downs. There are some Aikido tourney's that should real punchers and kicks against the Aikido masters. ( some times that get blasted but other times they throw there foe on their heads. About 50/50

 

[Diablo]

Originally posted by nbcdecon

There are some Aikido tourney's that should real punchers and kicks against the Aikido masters. ( some times that get blasted but other times they throw there foe on their heads. About 50/50

It's interesting that you mentioned Aikido competitions, because I wonder if there are any here in Texas. It is my understanding that O'Sensei was against competition. I found an interesting article on Aikido and competition: http://www.aikidojournal.com/articles/_article.asp?ArticleID=768
. Anyways, I practiced Okinawan Goju Ryu karate as a teen, and now practice Seidokan Aikido. Some of you questioned whether Aikido has blocks or parrys. I can not see why anyone would practice blocks in Aikido because one of the first things we were taught is to get out of the way, to not be there if your opponent is striking or whatever. Of course, one of the essences of Aikido is to blend in. We have parrys, but is is only used to redirect our opponent so that we can apply one technique or another. I believe someone even asked what a parry is. If you've ever watched them Karate-Kid movies, it is basically the motion of his hands doing the "wax on, wax off".
As far as Busido goes, nothing can be said to change his mind because his mind is made up about the effectiveness of Aikido. With all do respect, maybe you should try another art because it seems that you have lost your flare for Aikido. There are some in our dojo who have come from Tai Kwan Do, and Kenpo Karate and are now practicing Aikido. Maybe training in another art will make you a better rounded person (for fighting, self defense).
All arts have there shortcomings. You mentioned Brazillian Jiu Jitsu. An Aikidoka would have a better chance at survival against multiple attackers than a BJJ practitioner. As for the reality part of Aikido, if you have ever seen the Ultimate Fighting Championships, it is rare that any of the winners win using there respected art. The Gracie brothers are one of the few exceptions. The Kenpo guys, ninjitsus, Tai boxers, etc. usually win by swinging and just hoping that they make contact, not by using some rare technique only a few can master. With that in mind, an Aikidoka may not use Aikido in a street fight, but it is rather a tool for him to use if the situation fits.
P.S. Bushido, I will have to hand it to you, because controversy is usually what keeps a post alive, not everybody getting along agreeing with everything.

It's all about the connection.
Diablo

 

[Chiduce]

I feel the flowing principles of Aiki are the key to being effective against punches, strikes, onrushing attack's etc,. I use these principles (push-pull, etc,.) in the kenpo system which i teach. They are the most effective tools which we have in developing realistic workable counter-striking defensives against violent street attacks. A stand straight in front of you confrontation is not as probable in a real world street confrontation, accept for an attack being attempted in a club or bar type setting. The street attack will come from an obscure angle or semi- blind to blind side. The ability to yield, and adapt to the actual angle of attack leads to the flowing principles revealing themselves in sequences of counter-strike and choke throwing motions to fail the attacker. Since we are not an offensive school, and teach no offensive techniques, the principles of Aiki Flowing serve us honorably! :asian: Ami Tou Fou. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!