Duped by deceiful business practice - advice needed

[Argus]

I think the lack of any sort of contract should be a bigger red flag... I'm quite sure that I am legally required to have a contract of some form saying what services I am providing in exchange for what amount of money. Not having any form of contract shows extremely poor business practices and lack of professionalism.

Personally I do not agree with 36-month contracts, without a exit clause that is too far in the future for most people. But if a gym offers them and someone chooses to sign them it's their choice to do so.

As for the original post, a contract states your obligations as well as the schools. Does the contract specify which classes you are allowed to attend?

One of my best teachers hardly charges anything for the private lessons I take. I show up, train with him in his back yard, and pay out of pocket

I've trained a number of other places, and never had to sign contracts -- but then, I mostly do private lessons given the distances involved. I do train at an Aikido school locally, but their format is pretty informal and more club-esque.

So, now that I think about it, I guess my experience is a bit biased!

 

[Steve]

A lot of these people use social media to promote themselves. I would be looking to see if you could start detailing your experiences, in a 'nice way' of course, in such a way that they start to feel uncomfortable.

Some schools have reviews. Suggesting that your will post your experience might give them a wake up call.

I think you have to let them know that you are unhappy and that you are not being offered the training you signed up for. Personally I think the legal route, although obviously the most effective, will be costly and likely end in tears. Unfortunately we have a legal system, not a justice system.

This may be an Australian thing. Here in the USA, it's very possible he doesn't have a leg to stand on, but it costs very little to find out, time or money. People are often intimidated by lawyers and think it costs an arm and a leg. It CAN (don't get me wrong). But for something like this, there are a lot of low cost options. Your impressions above are very common, and it's a shame, because it keeps people from advocating for themselves and lets shifty people get away with it.

As has been said, without knowing the details of what was signed, it's impossible to know how strong a case the OP has. But it's clear that he entered into this agreement having been intentionally misled. He's going to be out almost $200 per month in a contract he's very unhappy with. Based on what he's said so far, I really think it's worth at least talking to a pro... getting some advice from someone other than a bunch of random, armchair lawyers on a martial arts website.

To the OP, there are a lot of ways to find a lawyer. Another option is to look into a low cost legal plan, like legalzoom.com. They are generally pretty inexpensive and include a consultation. Some also include letter writing, document reviews and other services, and offer discounts if you need legal assistance above and beyond what is covered in the plan.

Look, it's like this. If you were here asking about an injury, we would all be encouraging you to see a qualified medical professional. Why, I wonder, wouldn't you do the same in this situation? Go see a qualified legal professional. It's really not THAT expensive and may save you a bunch of dough in the long run, if it's worth it to you.

 

[Andrew Green]

One of my best teachers hardly charges anything for the private lessons I take. I show up, train with him in his back yard, and pay out of pocket

I've trained a number of other places, and never had to sign contracts -- but then, I mostly do private lessons given the distances involved. I do train at an Aikido school locally, but their format is pretty informal and more club-esque.

So, now that I think about it, I guess my experience is a bit biased!

A little, informal backyard training is very different then running a business with a lease and payroll. And private lessons are a little different then a membership for a period of time (even if it's just a month).

 

[K-man]

This may be an Australian thing. Here in the USA, it's very possible he doesn't have a leg to stand on, but it costs very little to find out, time or money. People are often intimidated by lawyers and think it costs an arm and a leg. It CAN (don't get me wrong). But for something like this, there are a lot of low cost options. Your impressions above are very common, and it's a shame, because it keeps people from advocating for themselves and lets shifty people get away with it.

As has been said, without knowing the details of what was signed, it's impossible to know how strong a case the OP has. But it's clear that he entered into this agreement having been intentionally misled. He's going to be out almost $200 per month in a contract he's very unhappy with. Based on what he's said so far, I really think it's worth at least talking to a pro... getting some advice from someone other than a bunch of random, armchair lawyers on a martial arts website.

To the OP, there are a lot of ways to find a lawyer. Another option is to look into a low cost legal plan, like legalzoom.com. They are generally pretty inexpensive and include a consultation. Some also include letter writing, document reviews and other services, and offer discounts if you need legal assistance above and beyond what is covered in the plan.

Look, it's like this. If you were here asking about an injury, we would all be encouraging you to see a qualified medical professional. Why, I wonder, wouldn't you do the same in this situation? Go see a qualified legal professional. It's really not THAT expensive and may save you a bunch of dough in the long run, if it's worth it to you.

You may be right. In most countries the legal system is a means of transferring money. That is where the money goes from your account to theirs.

However, as usual you didn't actually read my post. I actually said that the legal option was "obviously the most effective". What I was offering was a free option to try before expending money that may well be good money after bad.

 

[Steve]

You may be right. In most countries the legal system is a means of transferring money. That is where the money goes from your account to theirs.

However, as usual you didn't actually read my post. I actually said that the legal option was "obviously the most effective". What I was offering was a free option to try before expending money that may well be good money after bad.

Why are you so rude? is there another way to interpret "likely end in tears" than as a negative and discouraging comment? Or are you going to suggest that your remark about transferring money in no way suggests a negative bias?

And why would you want to discourage someone from asking a professional for assistance when it is easily available and likely to be very affordable? I don't get it, and frankly, your obvious negative bias against pretty much any legal system undermines your credibility on this subject. As you say, in most countries, it's just a way for "your" money to go into "theirs."

Hey. I have an idea. Why don't you take your own advice and actually read my post. Instead of nitpicking, try actually thinking about what I'm trying to say. just a thought.

 

[Argus]

A little, informal backyard training is very different then running a business with a lease and payroll. And private lessons are a little different then a membership for a period of time (even if it's just a month).

Mhm! That's what I was getting at.

I tend to say things that open holes in my own perceptions / arguments, out loud, contradict myself, and then change my tune in pursuit of a more objective impression of reality.

But, sometimes people don't pick up on that and think that I'm still trying to argue a point with flawed logic

 

[psyon82]

Wow, thank you all for your input! K-man and Steve, please don't get into an argument on my account. I actually agree with both of you! K-man is right by saying I could likely get out of the contract and suffer less mental anguish by threatening to voice an honest account of my experience on a review website before I even need to lace up the gloves and go the legal route. And Steve is right by saying the legal route is cheaper and easier than I may have originally thought (truthfully, it intimidates me). After thinking about it throughout the day, I'm going to talk to my Sifu and find out what my options are to get out of this contract.

 

[TSDLifer]

I'm very familiar with martial arts contracts and what goes on in behind the scenes. Why? Because I started one 7 years ago after seeing my family's martial arts business get overcharged for "billing services". After running a billing company, I realized that schools should do their own billing because it's easy if you have the right tools. So, I eventually got out (or "pivoted") of full service billing into self-service software.

You can get out of your contract very easily if you want to. PM if you want to talk about this in depth. I'm in Austin, so you can call me if you'd like.

FYI, if the owner doesn't let you out of the contract, as some of the posts have mentioned, social media is your friend. I agree with K-man in that you should let him know how you feel. If he sees value in you as a customer and Student, he will work with you and accommodate.

 

[TSDLifer]

FYI, if the owner doesn't let you out of the contract, as some of the posts have mentioned, social media is your friend. I agree with K-man in that you should let him know how you feel. If he sees value in you as a customer and Student, he will work with you and accommodate.

Btw, I believe schools should use contracts. What they should do in conjunction, however, is offer a fair Early Cancellation Fee should they become disinterested, have financial difficulty or other reasons other than "moving x # of miles away" or "have a medical reason".

 

[Steve]

Wow, thank you all for your input! K-man and Steve, please don't get into an argument on my account. I actually agree with both of you!

its okay. Kman has such a high opinion of himself that whenever someone disagrees with him, he thinks it's because they must not have read his post carefully enough.

As for the advice regarding social media, please make sure you are factual, and don't post anything emotional or exaggerated at all. Just do a little research. You are the one who has the moral and ethical high ground right now. yiu could very quickly find yourself in the wrong side of a defamation suit because you decided to out some pressure in this guy using Twitter, yelp, Facebook or whatever else.

 

[psyon82]

its okay. Kman has such a high opinion of himself that whenever someone disagrees with him, he thinks it's because they must not have read his post carefully enough.

As for the advice regarding social media, please make sure you are factual, and don't post anything emotional or exaggerated at all. Just do a little research. You are the one who has the moral and ethical high ground right now. yiu could very quickly find yourself in the wrong side of a defamation suit because you decided to out some pressure in this guy using Twitter, yelp, Facebook or whatever else.

Thanks for that nugget of wisdom. I've actually been keeping that in mind, and even as I post on here, I try to stick to the facts and my reactions to what was/wasn't said. Some of my edits have redacted emotional outbursts that upon re-reading would not be wise to include .

 

[K-man]

If you stick to the truth and state facts you will not be held liable for defamation. Defamation is the act of harming reputation through untrue or malicious statements. You are even protected by your 1st Amendment.

Libel is a tort governed by State law. State courts generally follow the common law of libel, which allows recovery of damages without proof of actual harm. Under the traditional rules of libel, injury is presumed from the fact of publication. However, the U.S. Supreme Court has held that freedom of expression secured by the First Amendment limits a State's power to award damages in actions for libel.

In New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, the Court held that proof of actual malice is required for an award of damages in an action for libel involving public figures or matters of public concern. See New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. 254 (1964). The Court reasoned that speech related to matters of public concern is at the heart of the protections guaranteed by the First Amendment, and outweighs the State's interest in compensating individuals for damage to their reputations.

In Gertz v. Robert Welch, Inc., the Court refused to extend the New York Times standard to actions for libel involving private individuals even where the matter is of public concern. See Gertz v. Robert Welch, Inc., 418 U.S. 323 (1974). In Gertz, the Court recognized a strong and legitimate state interest in compensating private individuals for injury to reputation, but cautioned that this interest extends no further than comensation for actual injury. The Gertz Court held that in a case involving a matter of public concern, recovery of presumed or punitive damages is not permitted without a showing of malice; that is, unless liability is based on a showing of knowledge of falsity or reckless disregard for the truth.
Libel Wex Legal Dictionary Encyclopedia LII Legal Information Institute

But make sure you check out what TSDLifer is suggesting.

 

[Steve]

I sure wish I'd said that. Wait a minute.... lol.

 

[Steve]

Btw, I believe schools should use contracts. What they should do in conjunction, however, is offer a fair Early Cancellation Fee should they become disinterested, have financial difficulty or other reasons other than "moving x # of miles away" or "have a medical reason".

Should or shouldn't is really a matter of opinion. I personally see nothing wrong with contracts, provided the are clear, in plain language and aren't misleading. But there are a lot of schools doing just fine without them, too.

 

[Andrew Green]

Should or shouldn't is really a matter of opinion. I personally see nothing wrong with contracts, provided the are clear, in plain language and aren't misleading. But there are a lot of schools doing just fine without them, too.

A contract says what each party is responsible for. How much money for how long and for what services. Both parties should require one, just like with any other service. Unless you are running drop in fees only, you need a contract and so does the business.

There are schools that do well without long term contracts, or even work solely off ongoing memberships, but no successful school can operate without some form of contract.

 

[TSDLifer]

I just have a strong opinion in that a school using a billing company's contract like the OP's is never in plain language and there's too much fine print. In addition, I'm a believer there should be an early termination fee in the contract. Why make enemies with students? Having dealt with almost every cancellation request/complaint/scenario imaginable in the years I did billing for over 300 schools, holding a student to a substantial contract balance will only do the school harm and cause unnecessary headache and problems for everyone. My 2 cents.

 

[Andrew Green]

holding a student to a substantial contract balance will only do the school harm and cause unnecessary headache and problems for everyone. My 2 cents.

I have no problem with choosing to use a billing company. Instructors should be good at teaching, and not wanting to mix that relationship with dealing with delinquent accounts is something I can understand.

But this point you are definately on the mark for. The Internet has changed things, and if a business conducts unethical behaviour it will hurt them more then the value of the contract.

Now I also have no problem with a school that chooses to enforce a contract, providing it was entered into with a clear understanding on both sides. The truth is a term contract is needed for the business to run smoothly, and month to month memberships should cost more. If there is a cancellation fee great, if not and a person signs knowing that then they made that choice. Of course trying to enforce a contract in a world of online reviews can be dangerous...

 

[psyon82]

I don't mind the contract at all. What bothers me is the "agreement" I have is very vague, and I was not informed that I would be required to upgrade should I go beyond SG3 within my 12-month contract. I refuse to sign a 3-year contract - especially one void of an early termination fee - and it upsets me that I have to sign one in order to further my martial arts study.

I may have mentioned it earlier, but I have a year of previous WT training, so I surpassed the scope of the beginner class after the 3rd week of training. Having a black belt in Kajukenbo, I understand the importance of a solid foundation in the basics, so I'm not trying to say I'm "too good" for the basic class. However the intermediate class seemed to be at my appropriate level, for it was challenging, fun, engaging, and - most importantly - I left class feeling like I learned something. I was heartbroken when he told me I couldn't join because I wouldn't commit like the others.

 

[Steve]

A contract says what each party is responsible for. How much money for how long and for what services. Both parties should require one, just like with any other service. Unless you are running drop in fees only, you need a contract and so does the business.

There are schools that do well without long term contracts, or even work solely off ongoing memberships, but no successful school can operate without some form of contract.

Good point. I had in mind long term contracts.


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