Drugs: Legalise or Prohibit?

[Steve]

I do think that perhaps, in an urge to 'win' the argument here and now, that the very serious point that the 'war on drugs' is ineffective and expensive is in danger of being overlooked. Along the way, the good positions that were being made are starting to drown in tenuous and extreme comparisons.

The point of my OP at the end of the day was that the most senior officials tasked with 'dealing' (no pun intended) with the problem know that the evidence shows it can't be stopped, or even slowed down to any noticeable extent.

I wondered what the views were of our American cousins on this issue, not really whether the trade deserves to be illegal or not. That is a related matter but not the key point. The very fact that useage is climbing seems to show that the real fight, the one to educate drug-use out of existence rather than eradicate by force of law, has been lost.

I wish that that weren't so, for as I said some pages ago, I lost a whole 'generation' of friends through their use of illegal drugs of one sort or another. But historically this has ever been the case when mind-altering substances bump into a desire to legislate on the part of government viz the more that it is attempted to 'ban', the more harm gets done by the criminal element (and the drug users caught in the gears).

I suppose that my own stance is pretty close to Bill's on this. I am just one step to the left, so to speak, in that, tho' I am unhappy about it, I do think that the trade should become officially regulated and commercialised. It works okay(ish) for tobacco and alcohol after all, which are the closest extant synonyms that occur to me.

Bill thinks that it should become officially regulated and commercialized? If that's true, then I have completely misunderstood Bill's position and apologize.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill thinks that it should become officially regulated and commercialized? If that's true, then I have completely misunderstood Bill's position and apologize.

I think it was the other part. We're both the same in that we're 'unhappy' about the prospect of legalization. He comes down sadly for it, and I come down sadly against it. That's my take on it, anyway.

 

[Sukerkin]

That's it, Bill :tup:.

 

[ballen0351]

I wish I could figure out that mulit-post thing I hope this is readable

And now we're back to the "what about the children" argument. Every vice has the potential to be abused and there are personal consequences. If someone is addicted to the internet and plays WoW at the expense of his personal and professional life that's not a good thing. But MMORPGs aren't illegal. If someone abuses alcohol, that can be devastating to a family. If someone is addicted to gambling, the effects are often tragic and many families never recover. It's sad when it happens. But it doesn't happen to most people.

The internet does not kill people, its does not alter your mental state, it not a physical addiction It could be a mental addiction but not a physical one. It has no physical withdraw.

And again, just so that it's VERY clear, I am not and have never suggested that pot or any other recreational drug including alcohol is anything other than a very bad idea for minors. In fact, in this thread, I've reiterated my position that I don't like anything that affects a child's brain, whether it's a legal or illegal drug, or being hit in the head in martial arts class. A child's developing brain is, in my opinion, something that should be well taken care of, and this is particularly true through adolescence, where puberty is wreaking havoc on a child physically, mentally and emotionally. So, to answer your question, if I found weed in my kid's dresser, sparks would fly. Same would be true if I found out he was drinking alcohol or huffing scotch guard or getting high in any number of easily accessible ways.
This argument that well abc is bad for you but legal and xyz is also bad so it should be legal too is just silly.


I hope that puts to rest the strawman you're arguing against now. So... you're a criminal. By your definition. Even if you're willing to pay the fine, you're knowingly breaking the law. Huh.

Never denied it and I also dont expect the laws to be changed to excuse my bad behavior like you do. You want to smoke up so you want the law changed. Crack heads want to smoke crack and want the law changed too so why should your drug of choice be any better then their drug of choice.

Judging the value of one topic over another is subjective and irrelevant. Trying to associate this subject with something completely off topic is just smoke and mirrors. If you're interested in legalizing pedophilia, start another thread and I'll tell you why I think you're a pervert.

Im not arguing for pedophilia Im saying there are groups out there that used the same flawed arguments about it to say its not bad or no worse then a different unrelated subject just like your argument about beer and cigarettes and making the comparison to Marijuana.
People make alcohol in their homes all the time. I know exactly what's involved in making a really good brew, and have done it myself many times. Fun and delicious.
So why would you expect Marijuana to be any different? You argument was Weed can be regulated by the govt just like a good brew yet you yourself make your own which is not regulated by the Govt so you have defeated your own argument

 

[Steve]

I don't know what you did to that last post, so I won't try to quote. Suffice to say, yes. Exactly. I am going to advocate that we change laws that I feel need to be changed. That's the process. That's how things work in a country of laws. If I disagree with something, I do what I can to legally advocate for change. Surely you understand this. We've seen the process at work over and over again in this country.

Do you have an opinion on the tax cut extensions that were just passed? What about health care reform? Those are also laws... that amend or supercede pre-existing laws.

Regarding NAMBLA, if you don't see a problem with pedophilia or that the physical, psychological and emotional toll on children is significant, I don't know what to say. Rationally, the two are completely unrelated. This goes back to Bill's comparison to murder. If you seriously believe that the legalization of pedophilia or murder is at all comparable to the legalization of pot, you're just fundamentally coming from a place that's too far away for me to understand.

Regarding home brewing, it is also regulated and taxed. And fun and tasty. If MJ were legal, what's the problem with someone growing their own for personal use? Just like with alcohol, if someone wants to sell or distribute, we've got mechanisms in place to handle that.

That said, people can grow jalepeno peppers in their homes, too, but how many actually do? People can grow literally anything that's legal in their homes or back yards, but most people prefer to buy it at the grocery store. How many people do you know who have a personal vegetable garden? I know a few, but not many, and I live in a rural area.

 

[Steve]

double post... stupid internet.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This goes back to Bill's comparison to murder.

I wasn't trying to make the comparison you may think I was trying to make. You had stated that legalizing marijuana would end the crimes associated with people buying it, which is true. But is also a tautology, it says the same thing. If you make running stop signs legal, then there will not be any crimes associated with people who run stop signs. If you make murder legal, then there will be no crimes associated with people who murder others. These things are self-evident, but meaningless.

Some make the argument that legalizing marijuana will lower crime rates. By itself, that is a reasonable statement. Certainly people won't get arrested for buying marijuana anymore, so that's a lower crime rate, right? But it does not address...and YOU did not address...what about the rest of the associated crime. Drug dealers keep dealing. People who steal to buy drugs keep stealing (yes, you argued that very few people steal to buy pot, but if you accept that ANYONE steals to buy pot, then you have to admit they will still steal to buy pot after legalization). And you'll even add some new crimes, such as black-marketing. So will crime rates drop? Sure! The crime that isn't a crime anymore won't be prosecuted as one! So what! It's a non-argument. Like I said, if you make running stop signs legal, then you lower crime. Shall we then make running stop signs legal? That was my point. I wasn't comparing legalization of marijuana to murder, I was just pointing out a tautology.

 

[Archangel M]

And I would like to see the evidence that proves that "marijuana users don't steal to support their habit". It may in fact be true, but where are the stats that prove it?

 

[Steve]

I wasn't trying to make the comparison you may think I was trying to make. You had stated that legalizing marijuana would end the crimes associated with people buying it, which is true. But is also a tautology, it says the same thing. If you make running stop signs legal, then there will not be any crimes associated with people who run stop signs. If you make murder legal, then there will be no crimes associated with people who murder others. These things are self-evident, but meaningless.

What you're saying is correct. I've never said otherwise.

Removing the criminal element leaves you with the ability to look at the potential damage or lack of that the actual activity would have. I say again, the outcomes of legalizing murder, pedophilia or smoking weed would be very different. While the acts would be legal and remove the criminal element, the fallout of legalizing the first two would be far worse than from the third. Don't you agree?

Some make the argument that legalizing marijuana will lower crime rates. By itself, that is a reasonable statement. Certainly people won't get arrested for buying marijuana anymore, so that's a lower crime rate, right? But it does not address...and YOU did not address...what about the rest of the associated crime. Drug dealers keep dealing. People who steal to buy drugs keep stealing (yes, you argued that very few people steal to buy pot, but if you accept that ANYONE steals to buy pot, then you have to admit they will still steal to buy pot after legalization).

I guess I didn't address this question because I'm not sure I or anyone else ever claimed that legalizing pot (or any other drug) would end crime. If ending drug related crimes altogether is the goal, we're going to have to widen our scope. Certainly, it would reduce the crime rate because there's no longer a reason for people to seek out criminals in order to lawfully purchase the drug. Once again, how many drug dealers sell alcohol on the corner? I don't deal with drug dealers, so I can't know for sure, but I'd guess not too many. "Hey kid. Wanna by some crack? How about a fifth of Johnny Walker?" There's just no reason for a recreational drinker to seek out a shifty criminal in order to purchase some booze. Now, during prohibition, it was an entirely different story.

Ultimately, I don't understand why you think it's relevant. I really don't. Theft is against the law. If you steal my car, should I ask you why before calling the cops? You're getting caught up in some of that fuzzy logic you hate. While everyone who steals for pot is a thief, not everyone who buys pot does so with stolen money. The crime we're talking about in this discussion is smoking weed.

And you'll even add some new crimes, such as black-marketing.

Really? Serious question here. Is there a thriving black market for alcohol? If so, I'll cede this point.

So will crime rates drop? Sure! The crime that isn't a crime anymore won't be prosecuted as one! So what! It's a non-argument. Like I said, if you make running stop signs legal, then you lower crime. Shall we then make running stop signs legal? That was my point. I wasn't comparing legalization of marijuana to murder, I was just pointing out a tautology.

If you legalize theft, stealing would no longer be illegal. I get it. I got it the first time. As I said a while back in the thread, "And so then we can step back and look at the ACTUAL impact upon society of the activity. Instead, you're stuck looking at the artificial impact that's strictly a result of the ban and not the behavior. If we legalize murder, what would happen? If we legalize Marijuana, what would happen? Objectively, the real impact on society would be very different.

The converse of your point is that any activity if made illegal creates crime regardless of the activity. If drinking water is banned, as ridiculous as that might sound, it would create criminals where none were before."

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Serious question here. Is there a thriving black market for alcohol? If so, I'll cede this point.

Not a huge one. There's a bigger black market for cigarettes though. Same concept; a pack of smokes costs $2.40 in NC, and $8.50 in NYC. Fill up your truck in NC, sell them to bodegas in NYC, and make a bunch of green. Don't even have to cross any border checkpoints.

Now that pot is becoming legal in some states, I predict that there will be thriving black market in two ways. First, it will be done by people who for whatever reason cannot get a medical prescription for the pot themselves; people will get prescriptions and sell the stuff instead of using it. Second, people will buy it in the legal state and sell it in the illegal state. Or, if it's legal in both places, they'll buy it where the state taxes on it are lower and sell it where they are higher.

The only reason booze isn't more widely black marketed is because there isn't that much of a price differential between the states to support a profit by moving it from one state to another. Let one state raise their booze tax by a bunch, though, and there will be a market for people to bring in booze from the state nearest by that has lower taxes.

 

[ballen0351]

Once again, how many drug dealers sell alcohol on the corner? I don't deal with drug dealers, so I can't know for sure, but I'd guess not too many. "Hey kid. Wanna by some crack? How about a fifth of Johnny Walker?" There's just no reason for a recreational drinker to seek out a shifty criminal in order to purchase some booze. Now, during prohibition, it was an entirely different story.

."

It depends on your definition of black market. If you’re talking about illegal alcohol sales it happens 1,000's of times a day everywhere. Every time a 17 year old gives $20.00 to a bum to buy him a six pack. Happens all over this country. There are also several places normally in the poor areas that sell beer and cigarettes illegally to avoid the taxes and fees put on by the state. We raid at least 1 a month in my town to keep the city alcohol board happy but there are a lot more we just don’t really fool with them we have better things to do.

We also don’t normally mess with the recreational drug user. And normally the only time they are bothered is when they are out driving with it in their car or have it in public. I’ve never executed a search Warrant on a house where we believed the person only smoked weed.

 

[Steve]

We also don’t normally mess with the recreational drug user. And normally the only time they are bothered is when they are out driving with it in their car or have it in public. I’ve never executed a search Warrant on a house where we believed the person only smoked weed.

Prosecution rests.

 

[ballen0351]

Prosecution rests.

So there is no reason to change the laws Im glad we agree

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Prosecution rests.

Maybe I have missed a part of the argument, but what good will come out of legalizing it.
I thought it seemed like there were very few if any positives to actually legalizing it..
I would not say prosecution rests..

 

[Steve]

LOL. If that's what you take from it, at this point I don't have the energy to reply at length, ballen. To me, you're acknowledging that the crime is both insignificant and benign.

LuckyKBoxer, there are many "good things" that would come out of it that have been brought up repeatedly. From the regulatory control, the tax income at all levels of Government and the ability to set standards for potency, to the decriminalization of it, keeping people whose only crime is scoring a lid of pot from clogging up the courts and jails. Others have been brought up as well over the course of the thread, but these are the ones that jump to mind.

Honestly, and I'm being completely sincere here, while I can see many benefits to legalization, I cannot think of one significant downside. Not one. While legalization wouldn't be a cure to all of society's ills by any stretch, not one bad thing about pot would be made worse as a result of lifting the prohibition, and many... most of the negative aspects would be eliminated, or even better, turned from a negative to a bona fide positive.

 

[ballen0351]

LOL. If that's what you take from it, at this point I don't have the energy to reply at length, ballen. To me, you're acknowledging that the crime is both insignificant and benign.

LuckyKBoxer, there are many "good things" that would come out of it that have been brought up repeatedly. From the regulatory control, the tax income at all levels of Government and the ability to set standards for potency, to the decriminalization of it, keeping people whose only crime is scoring a lid of pot from clogging up the courts and jails. Others have been brought up as well over the course of the thread, but these are the ones that jump to mind.

Honestly, and I'm being completely sincere here, while I can see many benefits to legalization, I cannot think of one significant downside. Not one. While legalization wouldn't be a cure to all of society's ills by any stretch, not one bad thing about pot would be made worse as a result of lifting the prohibition, and many... most of the negative aspects would be eliminated, or even better, turned from a negative to a bona fide positive.

If you think allowing people to smoke weed is a positive then you have never delt with the ills of the drug trade.

 

[Steve]

If you think allowing people to smoke weed is a positive then you have never delt with the ills of the drug trade.

Really?

I said this: "Honestly, and I'm being completely sincere here, while I can see many benefits to legalization, I cannot think of one significant downside. Not one. While legalization wouldn't be a cure to all of society's ills by any stretch, not one bad thing about pot would be made worse as a result of lifting the prohibition, and many... most of the negative aspects would be eliminated, or even better, turned from a negative to a bona fide positive."

In what way is anything I said incorrect? Name one thing that would be worse as a result of lifting the prohibition?

I'm also curious what "ills of the drug trade" you think would be affected by legalization, as well. You've already admitted that smoking pot is so benign that you, "also don’t normally mess with the recreational drug user. And normally the only time they are bothered is when they are out driving with it in their car or have it in public. I’ve never executed a search Warrant on a house where we believed the person only smoked weed."

 

[ballen0351]

Really?

I said this: "Honestly, and I'm being completely sincere here, while I can see many benefits to legalization, I cannot think of one significant downside. Not one. While legalization wouldn't be a cure to all of society's ills by any stretch, not one bad thing about pot would be made worse as a result of lifting the prohibition, and many... most of the negative aspects would be eliminated, or even better, turned from a negative to a bona fide positive."

In what way is anything I said incorrect? Name one thing that would be worse as a result of lifting the prohibition?

I'm also curious what "ills of the drug trade" you think would be affected by legalization, as well. You've already admitted that smoking pot is so benign that you, "also don’t normally mess with the recreational drug user. And normally the only time they are bothered is when they are out driving with it in their car or have it in public. I’ve never executed a search Warrant on a house where we believed the person only smoked weed."

You do realize not everyone that smokes pot is a recreational user that just chills in his house playing PS3 not bothering a sole right?

The #1 problem I see will happen is the number of underage users will go up. Its kinda hard to put out there that marijuana is bad and turn around and make it legal for adults makes us kinda hypocritical.

#2 after Marijuana is legal what drug lobby is next? I know you keep saying it wont happen cocaine wont be legal but 20 years ago people never thought Marijuana would be and its almost there. Its a slippery slope once you start with one you cant stop it.

#3 the amount of Driving under the influence will go up because Marijuana will be more socially accepted. Even though its illegal the numbers will rise.

#4 more a personal note then anything but We got alot of information from informants trying to get rid of a simple weed charge because as stated before most Marijuana dealers sell other drugs to. So when Patrol arrests a guy driving with a bag of weed I interview him he tells me who and where he gets it from I turn that into an investigation and 8 times out of 10 will get a dealer selling other drugs besides Marijuana.

#5 you will replaces Marijuana dealers with people selling marijuana on the black market. You wont change crime numbers just the name of the crime. Same people will get locked up just a different charge now.

#6 In my opinion the number of Sexual assaults will go up. I have no numbers to back that up but alot of the college date rape crimes we get usually involve smoking marijuana and drinking. You make Marijuana legal people will be more likely to try it.

#7 work production will go down.

#8 what about Cops and Military do you want them to be smoking up before work? If you make it legal Can I go smoke a fatty and go to work a few hours later? Do you want our troops Smoking up?

#9 Suicides will go up. There have been several links with Marijuana and depression.

 

[Steve]

You do realize not everyone that smokes pot is a recreational user that just chills in his house playing PS3 not bothering a sole right?

Yes. You realize that not everyone who smokes pot is a drug addled sociopath. Right?

The #1 problem I see will happen is the number of underage users will go up. Its kinda hard to put out there that marijuana is bad and turn around and make it legal for adults makes us kinda hypocritical.

What a joke. About 55% of kids between 12 and 18 have tried weed and about 45% smoked it within the previous month. It's a huge problem right now. We also have a huge problem with underage drinking. Both are serious, serious issues that need to be addressed. Neither would be impacted by legalizing marijuana. It would continue to be illegal for minors.

#2 after Marijuana is legal what drug lobby is next? I know you keep saying it wont happen cocaine wont be legal but 20 years ago people never thought Marijuana would be and its almost there. Its a slippery slope once you start with one you cant stop it.

That you recognize this as a slippery slope, but don't understand that a slippery slope is a logical fallacy is funny.

#3 the amount of Driving under the influence will go up because Marijuana will be more socially accepted. Even though its illegal the numbers will rise.

Really? I'd like to know whether you're just guessing or you have something to back this up. DUI is serious. We'd need to figure that out. But would more people do it? I don't know. It seems to me that the kind of person who would drive under the influence of alcohol is the same kind of person who would drive while stoned... its' a problem either way, but I'd guess that it's more to do with the person than the activity.

#4 more a personal note then anything but We got alot of information from informants trying to get rid of a simple weed charge because as stated before most Marijuana dealers sell other drugs to. So when Patrol arrests a guy driving with a bag of weed I interview him he tells me who and where he gets it from I turn that into an investigation and 8 times out of 10 will get a dealer selling other drugs besides Marijuana.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that we should keep weed illegal so that you can put pressure on casual users because they're being forced to get it from drug dealers? That's pretty scary, if that's what you mean. [/quote]

#5 you will replaces Marijuana dealers with people selling marijuana on the black market. You wont change crime numbers just the name of the crime. Same people will get locked up just a different charge now.[/quote]I asked you for any evidence to support this and you have yet to deliver. The best you could do was completely redefine the term "black market."

Bill mentioned cigs and alcohol, and it was pretty clear that the real key was disparity in the taxing and pricing.

#6 In my opinion the number of Sexual assaults will go up. I have no numbers to back that up but alot of the college date rape crimes we get usually involve smoking marijuana and drinking. You make Marijuana legal people will be more likely to try it.

What? At least you're not pretending that this is anything other than a guess. Weed is so incredibly available to college students that it might as well be legal. Sexual assault is serious, but once again, you're ignoring reality and trying desperately to look for some reasonable sounding support for your position.

#7 work production will go down.

Do you envision people smoking a bowl in the back room of office buildings? Your'e killing me. Is drinking on duty okay? Do you seriously think that smoking weed on duty would be okay? Come on.

#8 what about Cops and Military do you want them to be smoking up before work? If you make it legal Can I go smoke a fatty and go to work a few hours later? Do you want our troops Smoking up?

Do I want them drinking before work? Are you reading your own posts?

#9 Suicides will go up. There have been several links with Marijuana and depression.

Once again, I'm afraid to ask where you're drawing this conclusion.

This is my last post in this thread, unless you've got something new to bring to the table. At this point, you're really just rebooting the thread, pretending that you haven't read anything that's been posted before and stating your position like it's fresh and new. I don't have the time or energy to continue.