Drop the Kata?

[James Kovacich]

I hoped that the clip would show that the streets have changed and lead to a discussion accepting much much worse environments are out there. In our "protected" training environments some will never know what they can do although they will truely believe they are safe.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=trinitarios+with+machetes&aq=f&oq=&aqi=&start=0

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=ms13&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g-s6&start=0

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=Nortenos&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g8g-m2&start=0

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&um=1&q=surenos&revid=363967525&ei=hQDJSve-AZzmsAOex5XNBA&sa=X&oi=revisions_inline&resnum=0&ct=broad-revision&cd=1&start=0

http://banderasnews.com/0704/hb-mexicanalliance.htm

http://www.gangpreventionservices.org/fresnobulldogs.asp
Sure were not likely to run into some crazies, or at least some will make sure they won't. But things happen and the world is full of caca and I feel sorry for those that think "they have it covered."

My friends like to talk about "testing their techniques in the lab" and I like say we need to "test outside of the lab."

That dosen't mean getting into streetfights but it does mean seeing how we and our styles fare with other types of fighters outside of are schools and training partners. Then we know better, not for sure, nothing is for sure, but better.

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

back to "Kata-yes , or no"

I say keep practicing them, as:

#1) preserves the art
#2) Valuable pieces of techniques, and footwork are gained.

my 2 sense.

 

[K-man]

The mere fact that the question is asked shows that many people do not understand what kata actually is. :asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Or maybe the question just flew right over someones head.

 

[MJS]

I dont want to speak for James, and James, please correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I got from his last post, with those google clips, was to ask: is kata alone, going to help you, if you were to face some of the folks, with the weapons that they use today? I still maintain what I said before, 2 of the arts I do, Kenpo and Arnis, both have kata. I do them and I teach them. However, things can be taken from them, I do not mislead people into believing that that is all that you need. IMO, to think that you never need to spar, to think that you never need to work on random, spontaneous drills for SD, is doing more harm than good.

Just my .02.

 

[James Kovacich]

I still do Kata but it is not what I teach. My point is with the direction of martial arts today and the world is continually get rougher. I was trying to pose a question as to whether people really think their training is keeping up with society.

I knew what to expect from the posters but I did think that some would of included what they've done as far as evolving as an artist. I don't belive that martial arts were ever meant to be unchanged. Most the original masters changed things. If they had not, the Naha, Shuri and Tomari lineages wouldn't of muted from Okinawa Te to Okinawan and Japanese Karatedo.

Even our more recent lineages muted, but the current students don't seem to have the vision as those before. The world is still changing, but the arts have in a way slowed down. The point isn't about brawling. The point is people don't realize how easy it is to get their a$s handed to them.

Probably most never will get in an altercation, so it really dosn't matter that much. I am surprised though given the fact of the Ken/mpo lineages evolution that so few today seem to do more. Mr. Parker even spoke of it when he "spoke about when he's gone."

 

[punisher73]

I still do Kata but it is not what I teach. My point is with the direction of martial arts today and the world is continually get rougher. I was trying to pose a question as to whether people really think their training is keeping up with society.

I knew what to expect from the posters but I did think that some would of included what they've done as far as evolving as an artist. I don't belive that martial arts were ever meant to be unchanged. Most the original masters changed things. If they had not, the Naha, Shuri and Tomari lineages wouldn't of muted from Okinawa Te to Okinawan and Japanese Karatedo.

Even our more recent lineages muted, but the current students don't seem to have the vision as those before. The world is still changing, but the arts have in a way slowed down. The point isn't about brawling. The point is people don't realize how easy it is to get their a$s handed to them.

Probably most never will get in an altercation, so it really dosn't matter that much. I am surprised though given the fact of the Ken/mpo lineages evolution that so few today seem to do more. Mr. Parker even spoke of it when he "spoke about when he's gone."

Not sure what your intent was on the original question then. Most of the people who train kata realize that it is only a piece of the puzzle and not the end all that will turn you into a super deadly fighter without the other pieces.

Working in law enforcement I get to see sides of society that most don't. Here is what I have observed. While society is getting more violent, MA's are not needed as much. It used to be that there were some bad asses out there that could fight and that was how things were settled. MOST of today's criminals couldn't fight worth a darn and rely on a gun to protect them. So at some point, if ALL you are worried about is protecting yourself all of the time, then go get a CCW and practice combat shooting and all it's aspects.

The other aspect is that MOST of these "violent encounters" that get posted are completely avoidable. They are people that put themselves in bad situations and are surprised when it turns bad. MA's are designed to have the forethought to avoid places and situations that cause trouble.

There are other things to be gained by martial arts that have nothing to do with fighting. That's what keeps people coming back, they enjoy their pursuit and relationships that they build through their training.

If all you want to do is fight I can save you lots of time and money...Here is the secret to being a super deadly street fighter.

1) Take up Powerlifting
2) Practice lead hand punch followed by a rear hand punch
3) Learn to deploy them as fast and powerful as possible
4) If you think you are going to be in trouble hit the other guy as hard as possible first.

 

[James Kovacich]

Punisher,

Your 1st line hit, it as well as an overall good post. As the thread went on I realized that the initial question didn't really match my intended expression. My fault.

All,

I am big on being (training wise) open and sharing with no restrictions. Martial arts in general is a bit closed in order to protect their systems. So it is understandable. But being open to other ways does not mean it needs to become a part of their primary system or changes to the system have to be made.

Not long ago trained with a Kenpo instructor who told me. "What I teach you today, is yours to do what you want with it. Incorporate it into your system, say you invented it, I don't care. What I give you is yours." I only mention this because it is opposite of the "protecting the system" mentality. Sorry my friends.

I think I should of posted my expression in better words and possibly in a differant forum.

 

[Danjo]

Well, kata is a life-long endeavor to perfect one's form and movement. However, one should first be taught how to survive a fight. There's an old saying that goes, "When you're up to your asp in alligators, you tend to forget that your original objective was to drain the swamp." Teaching someone kata before teaching them to defend themselves is like insisting that the swamp get drained before the alligators are dealt with. Nothing wrong with "draining the swamp", but the priorities need to be correct. Most schools will teach kata at the same time as self defense, but there are those that insist that the kata be learned first.

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

Well, kata is a life-long endeavor to perfect one's form and movement. However, one should first be taught how to survive a fight. There's an old saying that goes, "When you're up to your asp in alligators, you tend to forget that your original objective was to drain the swamp." Teaching someone kata before teaching them to defend themselves is like insisting that the swamp get drained before the alligators are dealt with. Nothing wrong with "draining the swamp", but the priorities need to be correct. Most schools will teach kata at the same time as self defense, but there are those that insist that the kata be learned first.

I do have to agree with Dan, My school teaches you in the beginning, basic blocks, and thai boxing,a little JKD theories/techniques, with angle stepping to the 45degrees.
The rest comes later, once the practtioner knows "Basic sparring".
This way, we feel the student is ready for more.
i still feel forms/kata is important, though, and i would still teach them.

 

[punisher73]

Well, kata is a life-long endeavor to perfect one's form and movement. However, one should first be taught how to survive a fight. There's an old saying that goes, "When you're up to your asp in alligators, you tend to forget that your original objective was to drain the swamp." Teaching someone kata before teaching them to defend themselves is like insisting that the swamp get drained before the alligators are dealt with. Nothing wrong with "draining the swamp", but the priorities need to be correct. Most schools will teach kata at the same time as self defense, but there are those that insist that the kata be learned first.

Agreed. I think some still hold on to the old tradition of making sure that the student won't misuse what they learn and want to get to know them a little better before imparting certain things. Some of them might not even be aware that they filter it that way.