Dr. Dave and Orbits

[Yondanchris]

Hello all,

Today I came across a couple of videos of Dr. Dave discussing orbits and was floored!

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This is exactly the type of discussion and training that we incorporate with Shaolin Kempo and Marlon could attest (as well as others).
I totally agree with Dr. Dave, but I will advocate that beginners should not attempt this type of movement artificially until they have
learned the basic IP of the technique. Not only does this idea create purdy techniques but they become explosive and powerful!

Thanks Dr. Dave

 

[marlon]

You tube is not loading on my lap top for some reason, but I finally got to see these vids. Nice. What I find interesting is that I have always attributed those movements from the sil lum hung gar brought by the black belt society and not GM Chow.These are strongly noted in plum tree blocking, nengli form and sho tung kwa. Very powerful movements. I tend to stay away from the tilting Dr.Dave mentioned. I also, work on having the circle generated mostly by the waist and work on developing the same motion and power by product without the bigger arm motion. Thanks for saring this find

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[OKenpo942]

Very interesting. We have practiced these movements for years, but it is interesting to hear another explain it from a difference perspective. Some may argue that the larger orbits contradict the 'economy of motion' principle, however it certainly does increase power and is aesthetically pleasing.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hello all,

Today I came across a couple of videos of Dr. Dave discussing orbits and was floored!

[yt]_QjuQS-kLGo[/yt]

[yt]iVIX6c2MfAw[/yt]


This is exactly the type of discussion and training that we incorporate with Shaolin Kempo and Marlon could attest (as well as others).
I totally agree with Dr. Dave, but I will advocate that beginners should not attempt this type of movement artificially until they have
learned the basic IP of the technique. Not only does this idea create purdy techniques but they become explosive and powerful!

Thanks Dr. Dave

While this may match with what you guys are all doing, and there is nothing incorrect about what he is saying, this method of achieving power in kenpo techs is so foreign to me I want to scream. The short version of what I am talking about is that we use different circles while traveling the opposite direction, but I am just not havin' this. LOL
Sean

 

[Flying Crane]

While this may match with what you guys are all doing, and there is nothing incorrect about what he is saying, this method of achieving power in kenpo techs is so foreign to me I want to scream. The short version of what I am talking about is that we use different circles while traveling the opposite direction, but I am just not havin' this. LOL
Sean

On the same note, this concept of circles differs on a very fundamental level from how circular movement is used and where it comes from in any of the Chinese arts I've every encountered. I've had several people from different Chinese systems give their assessment and they have all said the same thing.

edited for content, I had incorrectly expressed myself.

 

[Touch Of Death]

On the same note, this concept of circles does not differs on a very fundamental level from how circular movement is used and where it comes from in any of the Chinese arts I've every encountered. I've had several people from different Chinese systems give their assessment and they have all said the same thing.

If he were to show smaller circles done well, I would be more on board with the contrast.
Sean

 

[Flying Crane]

If he were to show smaller circles done well, I would be more on board with the contrast.
Sean

yeah, in all the Chinese methods I've experienced, and the folks I've discussed this with, those circles are an expression of the engagement of the foundation. They are not simply circular movement drawn with the arms and hands, which is what it appears Dave is doing in the video.

 

[Touch Of Death]

yeah, in all the Chinese methods I've experienced, and the folks I've discussed this with, those circles are an expression of the engagement of the foundation. They are not simply circular movement drawn with the arms and hands, which is what it appears Dave is doing in the video.

On that note, everything goes around, where as bearing those circles in mind, everything could eminate from the center most of the time.
Sean

 

[Flying Crane]

On that note, everything goes around, where as bearing those circles in mind, everything could eminate from the center most of the time.
Sean

actually it's pretty clear when a punch is driven by the foundation, and that includes circular movements as well. It really does look different and once you've been properly clued into it it's not hard to see that difference. The stuff in these videos is not driven by the foundation, not by any Chinese standards that I've seen anyway.

I guess one could say that Kenpo, or at least Dave's kenpo has its own concept of circles and it's different from what the Chinese methods are doing. If that's the case then so be it. But I think it's a stretch.

 

[clfsean]

On that note, everything goes around, where as bearing those circles in mind, everything could eminate from the center most of the time.
Sean

CMA addage concerning circles... center to circle, circle to center. Simple as that.

 

[marlon]

I am not sure that Dr.dave was only segmenting out the motion of the arms here. Power is produced by the root, the waist/ center uses a circle to direct and drive the power, and the path of the energy. I am not sure i clearly experessed that...In any case the circles produced by the arms are a product of the center and not the muscles of the arm. At least, in the sk I am learning and teaching

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Flying Crane]

I am not sure that Dr.dave was only segmenting out the motion of the arms here. Power is produced by the root, the waist/ center uses a circle to direct and drive the power, and the path of the energy. I am not sure i clearly experessed that...In any case the circles produced by the arms are a product of the center and not the muscles of the arm. At least, in the sk I am learning and teaching

Respectfully,
Marlon

I agree with you, and I believe that is what is missing in what Dave was doing. He made no reference to it, just the path of the circles. Indicates to me that it's not connected to the foundation and the waist.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I agree with you, and I believe that is what is missing in what Dave was doing. He made no reference to it, just the path of the circles. Indicates to me that it's not connected to the foundation and the waist.

I thought the breaking posture for the larger circles was interesting. I am thinking that somewhere in his lineage they rejected the whole idea of using the center. I guess it could a viable alternative to kenpo as I know it, but I would have to see it in action to make any harsh judgement.
Sean

 

[Flying Crane]

I thought the breaking posture for the larger circles was interesting. I am thinking that somewhere in his lineage they rejected the whole idea of using the center. I guess it could a viable alternative to kenpo as I know it, but I would have to see it in action to make any harsh judgement.
Sean

I'd noticed that point too, and that is in direct violation to what I've been taught in white crane.

 

[clfsean]

Hmmm... how can you have a circle without a center?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hmmm... how can you have a circle without a center?

Using your center is not the same as acknowledging that circles have a center. Now I'm saying, "Hmmm" but it more of a Dark Crystal Hmmm.:mst:
Sean

 

[clfsean]

Using your center is not the same as acknowledging that circles have a center. Now I'm saying, "Hmmm" but it more of a Dark Crystal Hmmm.:mst:
Sean

I haz confuzshun.

Not sure I'm getting that point.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I haz confuzshun.

Not sure I'm getting that point.

I thought you were joking. My bad. Yes Doctor Dave is the center of his circles, but only parts of him... quadrants, if you will. But by choosing your own center line as a path to strike along, you move as a unit, and your full self is behind the strike. Add a little momentum and its golden.:mst:
Sean

 

[clfsean]

I thought you were joking. My bad.

Nope... no joking except for the cat speak a post ago... It's all good.

Yes Doctor Dave is the center of his circles, but only parts of him... quadrants, if you will.

But by choosing your own center line as a path to strike along, you move as a unit, and your full self is behind the strike. Add a little momentum and its golden.:mst:
Sean

Well yeah I agree there. You have to control & maintain your own center line otherwise you're tooled. I'm a (along with most CMA practitioners) big believer in taking your center line... and subsequently, your lunch money. :ultracool This is at the same time, controlling & protecting our own center line to keep the circle available as a tool to us.

But I think the kenpo speak/terminology is causing the gap in communication. I don't speak kenpo-ese (no joke... kenpo has its own language). Everything generates from the center, including circles (center to circle). When working outside to inside, a circle in footwork & striking will generally put you in a more favorable location to do as you wish (circle to center).

Mind you to, this little formula applies to locking, controlling, throwing, entering & everything else. The circle doesn't stop there either. We exist in a 360 degree world, so there's never not a circle, again... in my experience and skill set.

 

[Inkspill]

Using your center is not the same as acknowledging that circles have a center. Now I'm saying, "Hmmm" but it more of a Dark Crystal Hmmm.:mst:
Sean

haha skeksies reference! +1

if your discussion gets too heated, you could always have a trial by stone! : )