Dr. Chapel - Technical Kicking Question
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JamesB
Green Belt
Absolutely, although in my case I rely on my instructor (who's a student of Doc's) to help me understand how to do this stuff.
We slap-check in our techniques, and PAM and BAM - it's great! Our basics, stances etc have all developed a great deal. Short#1 would be a great example of something that has changed somewhat - adding transitions through forward-bows for example (we do this unilaterally as it happens). And we don't kick high, don't do spinning/twirling kicks in techs either.
JamesB
Green Belt
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I've been thinking about this a lot since yesterday, and really this is something that I have been thinking about a lot over the years. In my opinion, many practices that have crept into the martial arts today are harmful to the body. Some of this may be inherent in the style itself, while others may be due to current trends. I think that some of the experiences that I have had with specific systems have made this very clear to me.
I think that many styles incorporate practices that are harmful. Often, these practices give tremendous benefits in the short term, but over a long period of time they can be detrimental to one's health. My earlier example of Wing Chun's stance is one. Another would be the long, extended, swinging punches in Tibetan White Crane. They can be tremendously powerful, but if you get careless and screw them up, you can tear up your shoulders. Maybe this example falls more into the category of making sure you do it right. If you do, you are fine; but if you don't you are screwed.
I have spent many years practicing and playing capoeira. The movement in capoeira is unlike any other art I have every seen. It includes a lot of ground work, but not grappling like a ju-jitsu system. The groundwork is very mobile and quick, and is used to get in and out, and reposition and attack with a wide variety of kicks. But I see a lot of long-time capoeiristas with knee, shoulder, and back injuries. I believe that a lot of what is being done with this groundwork can lead to these injuries. When you develop these skill you can learn to do some amazing things. The art is beautiful like no other. But over a long period of time, I believe it has potential to break your body down. Again, I believe that a lot of it has to do with correct positioning in your movements, and a bit of luck along the way.
Hung Gar uses a lot of dynamic tension type exercises, along with controlled breathing to develop power. The Sanchin Kata found in many Okinawan systems does this as well. These exercises can build tremendous power and make your practice very strong. But I have also heard that over a long period of time it places unusual stress on the heart, and can lead to heart trouble. It is said that people who practice these arts often die at a young age.
These are some examples of practices in the arts themselves that can be harmful. But some issues have more to do with modern trends in the martial arts.
Example: capoeira again. The acrobatics are becoming more and more extreme. I believe this is contributing to injuries among capoeiristas. Many of these movements were not found in the art several generations ago.
Another example: Modern Wushu. It is a performance art based on Traditional Kung Fu. But it has been modified to be a crowd-pleaser. This means techniques have been changed for aesthetic reasons. More and more extreme acrobatics are also being added to the art. I believe these all are contributing to injuries. My sifu is also a coach for Modern Wushu. He trained with the Beijing team in the 1980s. He has collapsed arches in his feet, due to the hard landings that they would do out of aerial techniques. These hard landings had nothing to do with traditional kung fu. They are done for performance effect.
I believe that traditional arts, when done correctly, should not lead to injuries and should be something that can be done for one's whole life. But the key is in moderation as well as good habits. Training hard is ok, but some extreme things should not be done, or should only be done a little bit. Doc's example of pounding the body to toughen it up is a good one. It makes you tough, you can hit hard with highly conditioned hands, but you are on the road to debilitating arthritis in middle and old age. These kinds of practices should be approached with moderation and a lot of caution. We no longer live in a world where that kind of extreme training is necessary for most people. And we tend to live longer, and have a greater chance of experienceing the long-term effects of poor training habits.
Any art that is focused on performance or competition is likely to have a greater injury potential. Techniques are more extreme to please the audience and judges, and basics are improperly modified for aesthetic reasons. These can lead to injury.
I can't talk about this stuff on the micro level like Doc and the SL4 people can and I am sure my own basics are in need of improvement, but I can certainly recognize poor training habits and dangerous practices when I see them.
Anyway, sorry for the rant. Like I said, this has been on my mind for quite a while.
I think that many styles incorporate practices that are harmful. Often, these practices give tremendous benefits in the short term, but over a long period of time they can be detrimental to one's health. My earlier example of Wing Chun's stance is one. Another would be the long, extended, swinging punches in Tibetan White Crane. They can be tremendously powerful, but if you get careless and screw them up, you can tear up your shoulders. Maybe this example falls more into the category of making sure you do it right. If you do, you are fine; but if you don't you are screwed.
I have spent many years practicing and playing capoeira. The movement in capoeira is unlike any other art I have every seen. It includes a lot of ground work, but not grappling like a ju-jitsu system. The groundwork is very mobile and quick, and is used to get in and out, and reposition and attack with a wide variety of kicks. But I see a lot of long-time capoeiristas with knee, shoulder, and back injuries. I believe that a lot of what is being done with this groundwork can lead to these injuries. When you develop these skill you can learn to do some amazing things. The art is beautiful like no other. But over a long period of time, I believe it has potential to break your body down. Again, I believe that a lot of it has to do with correct positioning in your movements, and a bit of luck along the way.
Hung Gar uses a lot of dynamic tension type exercises, along with controlled breathing to develop power. The Sanchin Kata found in many Okinawan systems does this as well. These exercises can build tremendous power and make your practice very strong. But I have also heard that over a long period of time it places unusual stress on the heart, and can lead to heart trouble. It is said that people who practice these arts often die at a young age.
These are some examples of practices in the arts themselves that can be harmful. But some issues have more to do with modern trends in the martial arts.
Example: capoeira again. The acrobatics are becoming more and more extreme. I believe this is contributing to injuries among capoeiristas. Many of these movements were not found in the art several generations ago.
Another example: Modern Wushu. It is a performance art based on Traditional Kung Fu. But it has been modified to be a crowd-pleaser. This means techniques have been changed for aesthetic reasons. More and more extreme acrobatics are also being added to the art. I believe these all are contributing to injuries. My sifu is also a coach for Modern Wushu. He trained with the Beijing team in the 1980s. He has collapsed arches in his feet, due to the hard landings that they would do out of aerial techniques. These hard landings had nothing to do with traditional kung fu. They are done for performance effect.
I believe that traditional arts, when done correctly, should not lead to injuries and should be something that can be done for one's whole life. But the key is in moderation as well as good habits. Training hard is ok, but some extreme things should not be done, or should only be done a little bit. Doc's example of pounding the body to toughen it up is a good one. It makes you tough, you can hit hard with highly conditioned hands, but you are on the road to debilitating arthritis in middle and old age. These kinds of practices should be approached with moderation and a lot of caution. We no longer live in a world where that kind of extreme training is necessary for most people. And we tend to live longer, and have a greater chance of experienceing the long-term effects of poor training habits.
Any art that is focused on performance or competition is likely to have a greater injury potential. Techniques are more extreme to please the audience and judges, and basics are improperly modified for aesthetic reasons. These can lead to injury.
I can't talk about this stuff on the micro level like Doc and the SL4 people can and I am sure my own basics are in need of improvement, but I can certainly recognize poor training habits and dangerous practices when I see them.
Anyway, sorry for the rant. Like I said, this has been on my mind for quite a while.
You really need to condition your body to move with fluidity speed and power. Cultural traditions train our bodies to move un-naturaly and the martial arts take us to what ever extreem based on drilled methods of execution.
Sean
Sean
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Hi Dan,
I certainly like the idea. It seems to me that solid basics, well understood and able to be used creatively would make for a very effective yet streamlined system. The more extras that can be removed, so long as they don't really add anything of value, the better so far as I am concerned.
I've played with some of the things that Doc has described. I've never worked with him so I am much more limited in this scenario. Working off a written description isn't the same as getting it face-to-face, of course.
HKphooey
Senior Master
In doing some research on baseball pitching mechanics the other night I came across this article. Seems the article could easily be about the martal arts. IMO, there are many aspects of the article that are very similar to some aspects of SL4 (but I have yet to meet Doc, so I may be way off). Without the proper motor skills and basics one cannot adequately progess. I guess my only disagreement is only one way to properly kick or that if you are doing "commercial" kenpo you are doing it wrong. I wish I had someone like Doc, early in my learning, pushing me to execute perfect basics before progressing. The school I am at now pushes the solid basics first and saves the complex/extensions for higher levels of black belt. I had to go back and figure things out on my own or do the research.
Here is the article:
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/chapters/cap-ch17.shtml
And for any of you who do not play golf, try it, and you will see how basics make all the difference in the world.
Sorry for all the sports anologies.
Here is the article:
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/chapters/cap-ch17.shtml
And for any of you who do not play golf, try it, and you will see how basics make all the difference in the world.
Sorry for all the sports anologies.
Doc
Senior Master
What's a rant or two among friends. You put up with mine. Keep it up.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Pitching coaches tell pitchers, 'just throw naturally.' If pitchers threw naturally, then why do they injure pitching arms? Newton's three motion laws and pitching arm anatomy determine proper pitching motions. With practice, all pitching motions feel natural
This quote was taken from the article, and may perhaps illustrate one point, at least.
There may well be many ways to do something, with tremendous effect. And with practice, any of these ways feels natural. But perhaps some of these ways subject you to unnatural stresses that can lead to injury, more so than others. This may not become apparent until much later, even after the damage is irreparably done.
I've never been a big sports fan, but as a kid I played some baseball. I always heard that if you pitch sidearmed, you can injure your arm (If this isn't true, those who know more about baseball can feel free to correct me). But you might be able to pitch sidearmed, very effectively, for a long time. However, at some point this practice bites you in the butt and you find yourself with an injured arm.
Keyboarding is the same thing. Those of us who hold an office job do it every day, often for hours at a time. We become very skilled at it, and it becomes "natural". But all the information that we have about carpal tunnel syndrome and other repetitive stress injuries tell us that this activity is unnatural, is not good for us, and can injure us if we do it long enough.
In martial arts, we see many methods to do something. And in their own way, they all must be effective, or else they wouldn't survive within an art today. But maybe they are not all equal, with regard to long-term viability. And even this is something that is very difficult to determine, as everyone will be affected differently. One person may do something his whole life and have no trouble with it, while another person may do the same thing, identically, and develop severe problems because of it. So it can be difficult to make sweeping statements that "this" or "that" is just plain wrong, because there will always be at least some anecdotal evidence that suggests otherwise.
maybe this is one goal of SL4: to find the most effective way of doing something, that research indicates also causes the least negative wear and tear on the body while doing it. It doesn't mean it is the ONLY effective way to do something. It also doesn't necessarily mean that those who do it differently are GUARANTEED to be injured because of it. But with extra attention paid to the avoidance of wear and tear, along side maximizing effect, maybe that gives it something more.
Just trying to put it all together.
Doc
Senior Master
There is only ONE correct way to do ONE particular kick. Now if we examine the act of walking, we have variables but they all still consistently fall with within the anatomically correct definition. We can take small steps, or medium or long steps. We can change the speed of all of the above and move from walking to jogging to running. All different but all can and should be done anatomically correct. I suspect the variables you see as a 'different' way to do something are really a varied application on a correct anatomical theme.
Sir, you can't ever find anywhere where I said 'commercial makes it wrong.' What I have always said is, "no mater what you do, the teacher, their knowledge, and their ability to teach will always be the deciding factor, commerical or not."
There are people teaching non-commercial traditional arts wrong, as well as commercial arts. Obviously the commercial arts have proliferated because of business and money making opportunities, so you will find more incompetence there. But in the end, whether it's commercial or not a unknowledgeable teacher has the same impact.
Sports analogies are actually one of the best ways to make comparisons.
God article sir. If baseball pitchers would learn to BAM, they would extend their effective pitching life.
HKphooey
Senior Master
Doc, I just wish the Red Sox pitchers would learn that!
"Those born of and reared in the commercial context began their study sans basics or Indexes at shorthand, thus lacking the proper foundation upon which to build and grow. Therefore, whatever level of skill acquired in general will level out, with no opportunity to reach higher. It is a functional ceiling built into the methodology."
Sorry if i took you words out of context. :asian: My bad!
"Those born of and reared in the commercial context began their study sans basics or Indexes at shorthand, thus lacking the proper foundation upon which to build and grow. Therefore, whatever level of skill acquired in general will level out, with no opportunity to reach higher. It is a functional ceiling built into the methodology."
Sorry if i took you words out of context. :asian: My bad!
Doc
Senior Master
Doc, I just wish the Red Sox pitchers would learn that!
"Those born of and reared in the commercial context began their study sans basics or Indexes at shorthand, thus lacking the proper foundation upon which to build and grow. Therefore, whatever level of skill acquired in general will level out, with no opportunity to reach higher. It is a functional ceiling built into the methodology."
Sorry if i took you words out of context. :asian: My bad!
Actually, your point is well taken sir, but it was a generality. Unfortunately most do actually fall into this category, and most of the original 'Ancients and Seniors' agree on this point. Keep me on my toes sir, and give me no slack.
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
I just finished reviewing an old biomechanics text on complex kinematic chains, and their specifics (right/wrong, good form that aids/bad form that injures or depletes efficiency) in sports applications (minute dissection of tennis serves, pitching throws, golf swings, and the specific muscular firing sequences optimal for each, as well as the analysis of dyskenisias in these chains...how to spot them when the correct sequence is deviated from, and how to fix it).
I am reminded throughout this text of SL4 concepts, and brought back to an appreciation of the subtleties in SL4 that make a difference.
For an experiment in optimal kinematic chain recruitment and indexing...(this might be fodder for a different thread, but it kinda fits here...)
In lotsa kenpo, a lead hand back-knuckle is thrown point-of origin to point of contact. In SL4, we usually do something else on the way to the back-knuckle to recruit some buncha muscles and improve joint and structural stability as we go. Some of what we do is considered "bad form" in many kenpo circles. Example: In a technique with a glancing inward elbow to the ribs, followed immediately by an outward elbow to the other side of the ribs, I reach with my hand really far after the inward elbow, to c o c k for the outward elbow. I get told (at non-SL4 schools) not to do that; it violates economy of motion. Nevermind that the actual blow lands like a ton of bricks; gotta keep it short and snappy.
But back to the backfist, and a motion/force experiment that involves complex kinematic chains. Take a right neutral bow facing a heavy bad, or whatever your target of choice is (friend holding focus pad, etc.). Throw your best, fastest, hardest backfist to your 12:00 target. Pay attention to how hard it hits, and what your shoulder feels like near or at the time of contact. Throw a few in a row, warming up to doing it harder each time.
Next, with your right lead hand, before you throw the backfist, throw a vertical thrust punch type of motion to 9:00 on the ground clock. (or, if you're using a compass, your bad guy is at North, and you extend a punch or simply straighten your arm out towards West). You're going to combine 2 moves. Imagine drawing a bowstring back towards you, from that 9:00 position. Elbow high. When your hand is about 4 to 6 inches from your shoulder, switch directions to throw the backfist to 12:00. Do it a couple times so that your hand is sling-shotting around the hitch in the shoulder, instead of stopping at the 90-ish degree angle that it clears while changing directions. In other words, round the corner from the bowstring pull, to the backfist. Warm into it with a few slow-mo practice runs, then pick up the pace to full speed & full power. Add a slap check: About a 16th of a second before the backfist hits the target, use your left hand to slap yourself on the anterior deltiod/biceps/pectoralis tie-in on the front of your right shoulder.
Do it on your heavy bag/target a couple of times, and notice the stability in your shoulder. Also notice the improved power in the strike. It may SEEM to move more slowly because of the extra distance you're travelling (from the extended punch starting point, back towards your body, then out to the backfist). HOWEVER!!!! now go back and throw your original lead hand backfist to the target again. You should notice a couple of things:
1. The standard method is weaker, slower, and had some odd "hitches" in the shoulder joint as it elevates and extends.
2. Despite the extra distance to cover en route, the "indexed" version is faster. Meaning, from the time the starters pistol goes off and it leaves the starting blocks at the vertical punch to 9:00 position, to the time it lands actually takes less time than when you throw it from a lead-hand fighting position.
3. Going back to the standard way leaves you feeling like you're straining or hurting your joints. Because you are.
Have fun,
Dave
I am reminded throughout this text of SL4 concepts, and brought back to an appreciation of the subtleties in SL4 that make a difference.
For an experiment in optimal kinematic chain recruitment and indexing...(this might be fodder for a different thread, but it kinda fits here...)
In lotsa kenpo, a lead hand back-knuckle is thrown point-of origin to point of contact. In SL4, we usually do something else on the way to the back-knuckle to recruit some buncha muscles and improve joint and structural stability as we go. Some of what we do is considered "bad form" in many kenpo circles. Example: In a technique with a glancing inward elbow to the ribs, followed immediately by an outward elbow to the other side of the ribs, I reach with my hand really far after the inward elbow, to c o c k for the outward elbow. I get told (at non-SL4 schools) not to do that; it violates economy of motion. Nevermind that the actual blow lands like a ton of bricks; gotta keep it short and snappy.
But back to the backfist, and a motion/force experiment that involves complex kinematic chains. Take a right neutral bow facing a heavy bad, or whatever your target of choice is (friend holding focus pad, etc.). Throw your best, fastest, hardest backfist to your 12:00 target. Pay attention to how hard it hits, and what your shoulder feels like near or at the time of contact. Throw a few in a row, warming up to doing it harder each time.
Next, with your right lead hand, before you throw the backfist, throw a vertical thrust punch type of motion to 9:00 on the ground clock. (or, if you're using a compass, your bad guy is at North, and you extend a punch or simply straighten your arm out towards West). You're going to combine 2 moves. Imagine drawing a bowstring back towards you, from that 9:00 position. Elbow high. When your hand is about 4 to 6 inches from your shoulder, switch directions to throw the backfist to 12:00. Do it a couple times so that your hand is sling-shotting around the hitch in the shoulder, instead of stopping at the 90-ish degree angle that it clears while changing directions. In other words, round the corner from the bowstring pull, to the backfist. Warm into it with a few slow-mo practice runs, then pick up the pace to full speed & full power. Add a slap check: About a 16th of a second before the backfist hits the target, use your left hand to slap yourself on the anterior deltiod/biceps/pectoralis tie-in on the front of your right shoulder.
Do it on your heavy bag/target a couple of times, and notice the stability in your shoulder. Also notice the improved power in the strike. It may SEEM to move more slowly because of the extra distance you're travelling (from the extended punch starting point, back towards your body, then out to the backfist). HOWEVER!!!! now go back and throw your original lead hand backfist to the target again. You should notice a couple of things:
1. The standard method is weaker, slower, and had some odd "hitches" in the shoulder joint as it elevates and extends.
2. Despite the extra distance to cover en route, the "indexed" version is faster. Meaning, from the time the starters pistol goes off and it leaves the starting blocks at the vertical punch to 9:00 position, to the time it lands actually takes less time than when you throw it from a lead-hand fighting position.
3. Going back to the standard way leaves you feeling like you're straining or hurting your joints. Because you are.
Have fun,
Dave
Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
That, sir... Was well written. I didn't realize until I read your description that I have been "roughly" doing that for a good many years. Then with the advent of my introduction to Doc those years ago, I began slap checking with it. Didn't know I was doing it "right"! It just felt good that way.
Now ... Talk to me about the whys and wherefores of PAMs on my thighs.
Reason I ask is that again, for years, before I throw a kick, I have been slapping on the distal anterior outer portion of first, the kicking leg thigh, followed immeidately by the slap on the anterior distal outer portion of the supporting leg thigh. I've been told I shouldn't do that, because it is a "tell". On the other hand, it does seem to lend an aura of stability to my kicks. I wish I could remember where I picked it up. Is it good? Bad? No matter? Simply a warning that I am about to kick?
Thanks,
Dan
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Damn, that works!
Doc
Senior Master
PAM's omly refer to the lower platform and feet.
The reason your BAM's on your legs feel good is because your hips are out of line to begin with, and the BAM helps to re-align them. Kicking requires multiple mechanisms including but not limited to; foot indexes, leg indexes, hand and arm indexes, and BAM's.
HKphooey
Senior Master
This link was just sent to me from my sister who runs a PT center.
There is a flash animation of the skeletal/muscel structure in a kick/running.
http://science.education.nih.gov/supplements/nih6/Bone/activities/activities_toc.htm
There is a flash animation of the skeletal/muscel structure in a kick/running.
http://science.education.nih.gov/supplements/nih6/Bone/activities/activities_toc.htm
marlon
Master Black Belt
marlon
Master Black Belt
This discussion is wonderful nad practrical. Thanks for the info an dhelp all of you
Marlon
Marlon
marlon
Master Black Belt
I think Doc has given me about as much info as i can learn without actually training with him. the experimentation i have done has been fantastic. i have used mainly his pam and bam concepts to revisit my basics of stance and alignment and apply this strictly to techniques and combo's and the differences have been powerful and exceptional. my kempo skill has increased exponenttionally and of course now i emphasize these things more and with better understanding when i teach. When i take apart my forms i keep these things in mind and things become more claer and effective...better breathing and movement actually give me more time to pull off techniques. This stuff is great...of course should i ever meet Doc he will probably take everything i do apart and put it back together as something i recognmize ...sort of but different...but this is what i have to work with. Basic are basics and bassics are powerful
Respectfully,
marlon
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