Dojo Wars

[tshadowchaser]

I know some here remember the 60's and early 70's and the fight that took place between different schools. It could have been at a tournament where bare knuckles was the rule and broken ribs and teeth not unusual) or it could be the group from across town coming over and battling with you school all night to see which school; had the better fighters (or most survivors).
My question is not about those times (but I may open that topic at a later date) but rather do you think those days are truly over? Do school rivalries still exist that could/would bring about such activities? Other than the fear of being sued why do people with a long lineage not close down the new guy with exceptionally questionable certificates

 

[Jonathan Randall]

My question is not about those times (but I may open that topic at a later date) but rather do you think those days are truly over?

For the most part, yes, and fortunately so.

Do school rivalries still exist that could/would bring about such activities?

Yes, and they have, most infamously during the late 1980's in Wing Chun when a student of one master challenged, then assaulted the head of another group.

Other than the fear of being sued why do people with a long lineage not close down the new guy with exceptionally questionable certificates

Because it is none of their business to do so by force? Also, many of the systems with "long lineages" and a formidable reputation for creating great fighters were started themselves by individuals with questionable "paperwork" - but immense talent and ingenuity. As to those with questionable credentials and NO personal ability, let word of mouth, the internet, and "caveat emptor" (let the buyer beware) handle them - not vigilantism. Over time, the types of students they attract and retain will only reflect themselves.

 

[Ceicei]

Because it is none of their business to do so by force? Also, many of the systems with "long lineages" and a formidable reputation for creating great fighters were started themselves by individuals with questionable "paperwork" - but immense talent and ingenuity. As to those with questionable credentials and NO personal ability, let word of mouth, the internet, and "caveat emptor" (let the buyer beware) handle them - not vigilantism. Over time, the types of students they attract and retain will only reflect themselves.

Agreed.

Besides, people will go where they want. THere are some in society who do not seek the style for its own sake. Some just go purely as a physical exercise and don't care much for anything else (tradition, lineage, self defense ability, etc.) It takes all kinds of people to make the world rock.

If the place truly is not a good business for whatever reason, this will eventually be brought out.

- Ceicei

 

[Grenadier]

Rivalries still do exist to this day, although, they are most likely not going to be of the type where one school invades another and tries to beat them up. Perhaps at official tournaments, or exhibitions, one will try their darndest to outdo each other, but I doubt that there are many cases of where all-out brouhahas commence.

Some individuals, such as our favorite neo-ninja heckling target, have a bunch of sycophants that he uses to invade other bulletin boards / discussion groups, as well as using them to harass others via internet, phone, etc. Very dangerous, indeed, and such behavior from his sycophants is going to land someone in BIG trouble sooner or later.

People have itchier trigger fingers when it comes to the legal system these days, and an all-out brawl would certainly rack up some nasty legal fees, and even worse, waste a lot of participants' time.

Some of the older folks here might remember John Keehan (aka 'Count Juan Raphael Dante'), who would make a habit out of promoting his belief that he was the world's most dangerous man, even bringing along many of his most senior students to go beat up other dojos. Such behavior ended up in his closest friend getting killed in one of those brawls, which silenced him (Keehan) for the rest of the short life he had. It's no coincidence that he died of internal bleeding from a most nasty ulcer, given the miseries that he went through after his friend was killed in their foolish dojo raids.

 

[chinto01]

I have heard only rumors of dojo "wars" in our area. I think most problems now may stem from a senior student seperating from his instructor and opening a djo a few towns over. Obviously this may lead to bad mouthing by one or both parties involved. I do not however think that the old school "we're coming to prove a point at your dojo." exists anymore.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[James Clifton]

I posted this elsewhere,at one time it was customary for us to visit schools & inquire about"exchanging tech"! DOJO WAR?? Nah,we just wanted to see if what we were taught worked.Sometimes some of us won.sometimes some of them won!! I did it to find out if what I was learning was any good,it wasn't a DOJO WAR!! IT WAS JUST SOMETHING WE USED TO DO...CAN IT BE DONE now??I DOUBT IT!At that time MA was really new,we didn't have vid.games etc.The KUNG FU movies were in mass,most would go,cause no matter how bad they were it was all we had...except for training.I asked one of my Instructors why he didn't teach the way he used too.His answer was...Diff.time,you guys lifted were in shape,wanted to learn & were hard-chargers.New students ,most would quit,they want it too easy,minute it gets a little tough ,they mostly quit.They want it but don't want to pay the price.There is always a PRICE!!I know, I paid it!
Sorry for the ramble,forgive an old guy.I'll shut up now!
Be safe,
Jim

 

[bushidomartialarts]

my first instructor used to be very publicly vocal if he thought an instructor or studio in town was run by a charlatan. this resulted in a couple of situations where the guy in question would come to 'discuss' the matter with him. once, and only once far as i know, this actually came to blows.

the 'dojo wars' idea seems to have been mostly a rumor -- a sort of romantic, interesting rumor of the sort that eventually becomes urban legend. like many urban legends, it probably happened someplace once or twice. but not nearly as often as one might believe.

for myownself, i'd feel a responsibility to shut down a studio run by a charlatan or a predator. i wouldn't do it physically, though, just through reputation (and in extreme cases local gov. agencies). fortunately, our community doesn't have any anymore.

 

[stickarts]

I have only heard of one case with someone that i personally know that had a rivalry that came very close to a physical fight. The agressor (the new school in town) challenged my friend to a fight. My friend agreed so long as it included ground fighting (my friend knew that this guy had no backround in groundfighting and was likely to decline). The guy backed off and ended up shutting down anyway for getting caught doing some illegal activities.
I think many rivalries now mostly include slander, not actual fights.
In the end in most cases, I think the qualified people that are in it for the right reasons prevail. The sheisters fall by the wayside once people catch on to them. :0)

 

[still learning]

Hello, If they exist (dojo wars). The teacher/instuctors...have not grown up yet. Being mature is knowning the difference between right and wrong and not letting others misbehave.

A true martial artist...does not need to prove anything.

Humble....is the best way to life your life.......Aloha

 

[terryl965]

Dojo's wars in the way of fighting probaly does not exsist but in the real world the use of mouth for slander does and it has happened to me. I use to let other school come over to spare once in a while and things just turned for the worst, they try to recuit your students and finally they just have to start and bad mouth you to get what they lack self respect. I myself do not care if they are frauds nbecause time will tell in the long run, you can fool some of the people but not all.
Terry

 

[Phil Elmore]

Today's dojo and kwoon wars, for good or for ill, take place on the Internet far more often than in person (if ever, physically).

When I published my first self-defense book, a former instructor (whose school I'd already left) came after me, not in person, but online. The ensuing war of words promoted my book but did him no favors. The only good thing about this "virtual challenge matching" is that nobody gets hurt.

 

[bydand]

I am one who think that "Dojo Wars" do still exist, but not in the same form. Now instead of taking it to the mat, it is done on paper and over the air. The "fight" is carried out in the papers, radio, and television. Case in point: My brother just opened his own school a little over a year ago and as he was working on his building the local established McDojo started the rumor mill going with the usual items; no background, fly-by-night, no skills, etc.... For the offical "Grand Opening" of the school, he invited the local papers, and television stations over to see what was going on and quietly answered all questions they had and anybody else who was there. While explaining the background of his desire for his own school and the background of the art itself, he didn't come right out in a controversial manner and call the McDojo owner on the statements made before, but did lay to rest those questions. The Public, Press, and most importantly, future Students were able to see the intregrity in which he handled the situation and all but a couple of the original students are still there after a year and he is still growing.

So yes Dojo Wars still exist IMHO, but in a far different manner. side note, the student who did stop by the "check out" the new school from the other school signed up after the first class and has been there ever sense.

 

[IcemanSK]

I used to belong to a kickboxing school that had a fierce revivallary (sp?) with another school in the area. Each school thought they had the better....well, anything & everything. As long as we could fight & beat them, it didn't matter what else happened. We'd see each other at fights & sneer at each other. As for our "side" there wasn't any redeeming quality to that school. However, they were also the one school we respected. And when I see their students, I now smile & shake their hands. In the ring, they're our opponents. Outside the ring, they're a lot more like me than I'm usually willing to admit.

 

[Hannya]

I asked one of my Instructors why he didn't teach the way he used too.His answer was...Diff.time,you guys lifted were in shape,wanted to learn & were hard-chargers.New students ,most would quit,they want it too easy,minute it gets a little tough ,they mostly quit.They want it but don't want to pay the price.There is always a PRICE!!I know, I paid it!
Jim

Wouldn't the "hardcore" students also quit because of this because of the lack of being challenged? Pesonally I think alot of people would love to train this way, look at the popularity of UFC. Nothing wrong with point sparring, but it seems every school takes that approach

 

[Brandon Fisher]

There is more unity today then in years past however I think the rivalries still exsist. In my opinion still to much so.

 

[Robert Lee]

No wars but you find schools that teach the same style refure to another school As not as pure or Does not know the right training methods. ITs for keeping there students around. What I see more of today is the self promoted black belts. They get a blackbelt start teaching Stop there future training. Join organizations that you can write a essay on your so called training knowledge and boom your a 3rd 4th 5 th dan With a certificate. Then its war of words By those new so called masters doctors professers ect. The legit schools just keep going knowing at some point things balance out.

 

[IcemanSK]

I said eariler that I didn't know of many & here I've remembered several. I trained with a guy who was a top-ranked (World-ranked) TKD fighter in the early 80's. Our instructor brought in a friend from Korea to teach him how to run a school in the US. One day, the fighter from our school & this Korean guy started sparring. Well, one cheap shot after another & these guys were no longer sparring. Our instructor wasn't there yet! It took 10 people to separate these two guys just as our instructor walked in. Our instructor was livid! He kicked both of them out. Both tried to apologize at different times. Neither were ever allowed back. My instructor knew it wasn't a good example for his students. So, I guess dojo wars can happen w/in a school, too.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I have heard of similar stories also.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have heard and seen about the same thing happen a few times. Never a nice site to se classmates fightingfor real but it happens. Things like this cause instructors to do a lot of soul searching

 

[Hand Sword]

Funny to come across this topic. No, they are not over. A friend of mine recently tried to run a "karate class" at a local rec. center. After a class, he was walking to his car and was confronted by 3 dudes. They informed him of their displeasure of his classes, as this was someone elses turf already, and a fight began. Damage was done on both sides, but, I thought, wow! right out of the movies!​