Doing other martial arts while learning Tai Chi Quan?

[Steve]

My opinion is that you already know what you'd like to do and have made a decision on some level, likely at a subconscious level. Now, you're gathering information that either supports or contradicts this decision. The mixed opinions on this board are confusing because we've all been in your shoes and we've all made choices. Here's the thing. We're all (well, mostly) happy people. Some of us cross train. Some don't. Some did and didn't like it. Some did and loved it. Some never did and some haven't yet but want to. Point is, we're all still training and still learning and still enjoying what we're doing.

My advice is to do what you want to do. This is about personal fulfillment and enjoyment. It may very well be that studying a different style will prolong your journey in Tai Chi. So what? Have fun. Do what is going to make you happy. If that means focusing on one style so that you can be an expert in the shortest amount of time, great! If it means studying a wide range of styles, have a blast.

Frankly, it sounds like you're looking for some variety and would like to mix things up a little bit. It's your journey. Enjoy it.

 

[Shuto]

FWIW, the Sifu of my Kung Fu Sifu required his students to also do Tai Chi. He was born and trained in Hong Kong.

 

[Flying Crane]

That's the thing, they're not rules. It's more suggestions. He thinks I should mix them because it will interfere and not help my Tai Chi training. He doesn't think that it will defeat my Tai Chi training, but slow it down substantially.

personally, I agree with him. In my experience, this was true. I trained taiji in addition to white crane, for a bunch of years. Taiji was always in the back seat, as far as my interests, but I tried to keep practicing it. Finally I just concluded that taiji doesn't make a lot of sense to me, I don't get it, it's not a good match for me, so I stopped doing it. That might not have been the case if I had made it my only focus, but that's how it turned out for me. I think taiji is subtle and not easy to grasp and so requires focus. I didn't give it that focus, and it wasn't any good to me.

 

[Xue Sheng]

FWIW, the Sifu of my Kung Fu Sifu required his students to also do Tai Chi. He was born and trained in Hong Kong.

It may or may not depend on how he trained. My first sifu would tell you the same thing and he was born and trained in Shandong, but he was trained at a physical education university. My second sifu (Yang Taijiquan - Student of Tung Ying Chieh) was born on mainland and trained in Hong Kong and he does not care what you train but if you want him to take you seriously you will stop everything else and train only Taijiquan.

I also know a group of guys that train Wing Chun and thier sifu was born and trained in Hong Kong (student of Leung Sheung) you want to train with him and be taken seriously you stop everything else and train Wing Chun

 

[Xue Sheng]

personally, I agree with him. In my experience, this was true. I trained taiji in addition to white crane, for a bunch of years. Taiji was always in the back seat, as far as my interests, but I tried to keep practicing it. Finally I just concluded that taiji doesn't make a lot of sense to me, I don't get it, it's not a good match for me, so I stopped doing it. That might not have been the case if I had made it my only focus, but that's how it turned out for me.

Agreed

I think taiji is subtle and not easy to grasp and so requires focus. I didn't give it that focus, and it wasn't any good to me.

There are those that will not agree but IMO, yes, yes it does.

 

[punisher73]

As always it depends.

Does your sifu teach Tai chi as a martial art and all it's facets, or does he only teach it from a health/longevity perspective? If your goal is eventually learning to fight, then it answers the question right there.

If he does teach it from a martial perspective and it is what you want to do, I would listen to him. Why? Because Tai chi has a very unique delivery system and if you are just starting out than you have no base or foundation in anything to even add/adapt from. For example, the principles of Shotokan are going to be VERY different and confuse your body on how to move and you will be doing neither well. That is why most are against cross-training. It can get in the way of learning the main style correctly and fully.

 

[WC_lun]

Understand that most of us think cross training is a fine idea, but only after a solid martial base has been established.

This teacher or Tai chi may not be for you. There is nothing wrong with that. Find your calling. If what you are doing is it, then wonderful. If not, then you must change. Making an informed decision is important and it looks like you are trying to do that. Though it also sounds like you already have made up your mind about how you will proceed. Good luck with whatever path you follow.

 

[yak sao]

I don't know if this will help but here's my 2 cents.

I study Wing Tsun, which is geared very much towards fighting.
Someone once asked Leung Ting ( the head of the Wing Tsun system) that if Wing Tsun had never been developed as a system, what other system would he train in?
Leung Ting said " that's easy, Tai Chi"

So Tai Chi will teach you to fight, provided as Punisher said, you are getting martial application.
Stick it out...it's not called Grand Ultimate Fist for nothing.

 

[Vajramusti]

It all depends on what you want out of Taijiquan

The proper usage of and effectiveness of Taijiquan is directly related to how you train and how much you train by yourself, with your Sifu and with others (push hands and tuishou) Taijiquan takes longer than most arts, even other internals to use correctly and effectively for Self-Defense. And other arts, depending on what arts those are, can adversely effect your Taiji training, particularly in the early stages if you are training them concurrently.I have alse seen many longtime hard stylist having a whole lot of issues with learning Taijiquan. They were just to stiff and had real issues with relaxation.

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Agreed. I have had the good fortune of getting private lessons from the great Chen Xiao Wang whenever he visited Arizona. I learned two chen wu shu demo forms frpm Jin heng li a wushu champion - just for fun but did not practice them regularly but kept doing the drills that CXW taught me.I enjoy them immensely. I am however a long standing wing chun stylist and sifu and wing chun from Master Augustine Fong remains my main art. I find no conflict in my interests. In my reflexive actions the wing chun will come out but I deeply appreciate the insights into natural motion that both arts provide. Lao Jia is too long for me- so I have been learning the shorter 19 posture form from a female student of Chen Xiao Wang.She knows chen but was in yang for many years before begiining with CXW. The quality of the instruction and "emptying one's cup"IMO is the key to learning more than one style.

 

[Eric_H]

Alright, so as you guys probably know, I practice Yang style Tai Chi Quan. My teacher says I shouldn't mix other arts with Tai Chi Quan or I might create bad habits. I know this is true in some sense because you're suppose to become soft and be effortless in Tai Chi Quan. However, Tai Chi Quan takes a long time to get good at and while I know I should be patient, I also want to be able to fight before and while learning Tai Chi Quan. What are your thoughts and opinions?

Being as truthful about what TCMA offers as possible, if you want to learn to fight quickly and effectively, you should do westernized MA.

Lots of stuff in CMA survives because of the cultural reverence of tradition and is more chaff than wheat when it comes to combat effectiveness.

Better to be a good fighter whoi develops IMA body later than an IMA guy who never develops fighting.

 

[FluidSound]

After reading all the answers, I'm a little more clear I suppose. I find my instructor to be more than an instructor though. He is almost like a father figure in a way and a friend. He does teach me (mostly me) about the martial aspects of Tai Chi Quan because he knows that it's what I want to learn and even does pushing hands with me often enough. I love Tai Chi Quan and want it to be my main martial art. Though, I think I have decided on this. I will continue to learn Yang Style but I think I'd enjoy Chen style more and will eventually move onto that. I've grown too attached to Taiji Quan to let go of it.

The reason I choose Chen style is because, Chen style's applications are more based on striking movements rather than pushing and pulling (yang style) and that is how I enjoy to apply things.

Anyhow, as far as cross training, I'll practice how to box a little through regular application when I get opportunities but will maintain my focus on Tai Chi Quan.

 

[Flying Crane]

Lots of stuff in CMA survives because of the cultural reverence of tradition and is more chaff than wheat when it comes to combat effectiveness.

This has not been my experience. However, I do believe that when properly trained, the traditional Asian martial arts sometimes take an approach to training that doesn't always mesh well with the Western mindset and mentality. If that's the case, then it's not a good match for the individual and they would be better off seeking other training. Traditional martial arts are not for everyone.

 

[Xue Sheng]

After reading all the answers, I'm a little more clear I suppose. I find my instructor to be more than an instructor though. He is almost like a father figure in a way and a friend. He does teach me (mostly me) about the martial aspects of Tai Chi Quan because he knows that it's what I want to learn and even does pushing hands with me often enough. I love Tai Chi Quan and want it to be my main martial art. Though, I think I have decided on this. I will continue to learn Yang Style but I think I'd enjoy Chen style more and will eventually move onto that. I've grown too attached to Taiji Quan to let go of it.

The reason I choose Chen style is because, Chen style's applications are more based on striking movements rather than pushing and pulling (yang style) and that is how I enjoy to apply things.

Anyhow, as far as cross training, I'll practice how to box a little through regular application when I get opportunities but will maintain my focus on Tai Chi Quan.

Look at the 13 postures in Yang style, particularly Zhou (elbow) and Kao (shoulder) there are multiple strikes there. Actually there are more strikes in Yang style than most know. Not as many as you would find in Wing Chun or Changquan or Tongbei or Baji, but there are a lot. And Chen is not that different. It is that Yang tends to be a bit more subtle and less obvious. Also both styles use more qinna than many realize too.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This has not been my experience. However, I do believe that when properly trained, the traditional Asian martial arts sometimes take an approach to training that doesn't always mesh well with the Western mindset and mentality. If that's the case, then it's not a good match for the individual and they would be better off seeking other training. Traditional martial arts are not for everyone.

Exactly, if one actually tries to understand what it is and what it is doing and not change it to match their understanding, it has been my experience that it works rather well. Basically do not over analyze it, do not worry about the degree or angle or weight distribution of a stance and just stand….. don’t worry about standing at 45 degrees to the opponent with your weight at 60/40 or 70/30 or 50/50.…just throw the darn punch…and it all works rather well.

 

[oaktree]

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Agreed. I have had the good fortune of getting private lessons from the great Chen Xiao Wang whenever he visited Arizona. I learned two chen wu shu demo forms frpm Jin heng li a wushu champion - just for fun but did not practice them regularly but kept doing the drills that CXW taught me.I enjoy them immensely. I am however a long standing wing chun stylist and sifu and wing chun from Master Augustine Fong remains my main art. I find no conflict in my interests. In my reflexive actions the wing chun will come out but I deeply appreciate the insights into natural motion that both arts provide. Lao Jia is too long for me- so I have been learning the shorter 19 posture form from a female student of Chen Xiao Wang.She knows chen but was in yang for many years before begiining with CXW. The quality of the instruction and "emptying one's cup"IMO is the key to learning more than one style.

The 19 step is a very good form it has a lot of the key movements found in Laojia. I think the 19 form has some forms that use the left hand which I have heard was because Chen XiaoWang felt Laojia put more emphasis on the right side and he wanted to balance things out. Doing things from the left does make things interesting. Also some of the transitions differ but still pretty cool. I like Laojia but you are right it is a long repetitive form and single whip and sealing come up the most. I think Xinjia and weapon routines in Chen Taiji are fun, The Jian form requires alot of articulate wrist movements with stretching, twisting, spiraling it is very demanding on my wrist since I have Carpal damage from previous injuries it is for sure not a sword routine to learn with a real live heavy sword but with a light sword till you develop the strength in the wrist IMO.
It would be cool to know who the student of Chen XiaoWang is you train with my teacher and yours most likely know each other as all of Chen XiaoWang generation holders are on his page. Always great to meet another person studying Chen style.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The 19 step is a very good form it has a lot of the key movements found in Laojia. I think the 19 form has some forms that use the left hand which I have heard was because Chen XiaoWang felt Laojia put more emphasis on the right side and he wanted to balance things out. Doing things from the left does make things interesting. Also some of the transitions differ but still pretty cool. I like Laojia but you are right it is a long repetitive form and single whip and sealing come up the most. I think Xinjia and weapon routines in Chen Taiji are fun, The Jian form requires alot of articulate wrist movements with stretching, twisting, spiraling it is very demanding on my wrist since I have Carpal damage from previous injuries it is for sure not a sword routine to learn with a real live heavy sword but with a light sword till you develop the strength in the wrist IMO.
It would be cool to know who the student of Chen XiaoWang is you train with my teacher and yours most likely know each other as all of Chen XiaoWang generation holders are on his page. Always great to meet another person studying Chen style.

No no no..the Chen 18 is by FAR superior and...... 1 posture less

I have not trained with Chen Xiaowang but have always wanted to, I did have a chance to train with Chen Zhanglei and would again if I get the chance.

 

[oaktree]

Ya the 18 form does have a good set up all the essentials are there. One of my teacher's teacher said that the first five moves is the essence of Laojia:
1.Open form 2. Pounds mortar 3.lazy tying coat 4. sealing 5.single whip As these movements do repeat often in the form. Six sealing and fourth closing is IMO the core of Laojia because it is also found in transition steps and is a silk reeling exercise in it self.

I thought the 18 form was created by Chen Zhanglei and 19 is by Chen XiaoWang. I think and I would have to ask my teacher this that Chen XiaoWang created one of the short forms because of his trips teaching and found that people were having issues with learning Laojia. I think it was taking people to long to get it down correctly.
Anyway the 19 step form was something I was working with because someone I knew was learning it, the transition from Laojia to 19 step is different though. Like some of the things in Laojia has a different transition step then the way 19 step does it, throwing punches and single whips from the left is really strange at first but gives you a new perspective, I guess it is like playing the Yang long form only backwards lol.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ya the 18 form does have a good set up all the essentials are there. One of my teacher's teacher said that the first five moves is the essence of Laojia:
1.Open form 2. Pounds mortar 3.lazy tying coat 4. sealing 5.single whip As these movements do repeat often in the form. Six sealing and fourth closing is IMO the core of Laojia because it is also found in transition steps and is a silk reeling exercise in it self.

I thought the 18 form was created by Chen Zhanglei and 19 is by Chen XiaoWang. I think and I would have to ask my teacher this that Chen XiaoWang created one of the short forms because of his trips teaching and found that people were having issues with learning Laojia. I think it was taking people to long to get it down correctly.
Anyway the 19 step form was something I was working with because someone I knew was learning it, the transition from Laojia to 19 step is different though. Like some of the things in Laojia has a different transition step then the way 19 step does it, throwing punches and single whips from the left is really strange at first but gives you a new perspective, I guess it is like playing the Yang long form only backwards lol.

Chen Zhenglei is the creator of the 18 form

Chen Xiaowang Created the 38 form I believe because he found that people were having issues with learning Laojia Yilu

Chen Xiaowang then created the 19 form because he found that people were having issues with learning the 38

 

[Vajramusti]

The 19 step is a very good form it has a lot of the key movements found in Laojia. I think the 19 form has some forms that use the left hand which I have heard was because Chen XiaoWang felt Laojia put more emphasis on the right side and he wanted to balance things out. Doing things from the left does make things interesting. Also some of the transitions differ but still pretty cool. I like Laojia but you are right it is a long repetitive form and single whip and sealing come up the most. I think Xinjia and weapon routines in Chen Taiji are fun, The Jian form requires alot of articulate wrist movements with stretching, twisting, spiraling it is very demanding on my wrist since I have Carpal damage from previous injuries it is for sure not a sword routine to learn with a real live heavy sword but with a light sword till you develop the strength in the wrist IMO.
It would be cool to know who the student of Chen XiaoWang is you train with my teacher and yours most likely know each other as all of Chen XiaoWang generation holders are on his page. Always great to meet another person studying Chen -

----style.

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Reply to Oak tree's post...re student of CXW=Betty Dong.

 

[GaryR]

Without seeing your instructor in action it is hard to give you very precise advice.

Also without knowing how well you learn and retain information, and where you are at, also hard to be precise.

So with that in mind, generally you should get a base in something before starting to blend too much. However, most taiji guys can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. It sounds like he does a lot of pushes for apps as many do....well unless he is pushing someone into oncoming traffic, you need some other skill sets. Just don't do anything that will mal-train your body mechanics. (Avoid any Japanese/Okinawan, Korean systems)

My advice in the immediate future--Learn the 5 Xingyi fists. They will give you the striking tools, and not F**k up your taiji. Even if you have to resort to video--Mike Patterson has a few, there are others.

You might also look into learning some Bagua, just single palm change and circle walking. Less is more.

I think learning two Taiji styles at once chen/yang, might just confuse you, particularly if you are doing a lot of form work. You will end up focusing on quantity, not quality, and instead of being good at one, you will suck at two.

Best,

G