Does your school train against attacks outside of those found within their art?

[Daniel Sullivan]

This subject came up during a thread in the KMA section.

Follow up: I have noticed from my various training (hapkido, tkd, tang soo do) that we envision opponents based upon our own art. The self defense I picked along the way was predicated upon assumptions of movement and ways of attack.

I thought that this was a good topic. In your studio/dojo/dojang/gym, are the art's defensive techniques performed soley against the art's offensive techniques?

For example, in your TKD dojang, do you train against tackles? In your boxing gym, do you train against kicks? In your karate dojo, do you train against boxing? I could go on, but you get the idea.

No value judgement, by the way, regardless of the answer.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In the beginner BJJ class I teach, I show defenses against common street attacks (punches, tackles, headlocks, etc) before I show defenses against BJJ tactics. The logic is that they are unlikely to ever get mugged by a jiu-jitsu practitioner. I'd rather have them prepared to defend against a real-world attack before worrying about competition strategies.

I don't have them work on specific defenses against specific attacks by a highly-trained martial artist in some other style because there's no way to realistically test or practice those without having an expert in the relevant style handy. I could say "here's how to defend against a TKD spinning hook kick or a JKD straight blast", but if they don't have a training partner who can correctly execute the attack we'd just be fooling ourselves.

That said, the MMA team at our gym has individuals from a variety of backgrounds, so sparring with them will develop a pretty good feel for handling most approaches to striking or grappling.

 

[arnisador]

My instructor says you have to be prepared to fight someone from your system (arnis) who knows all your tricks, the family of arts it's part of (Filipino martial arts) who knows generally what you do but also has some surprises for you, and someone with completely different or no training--at least 3 types of opponents. We do train for those scenarios: In stickwork, say, from someone who knows our traps, to someone who might get in close whom we might try to trap, to a person taking a wild swing.

 

[oftheherd1]

Interesting question from a Hapkidoist. ;-)

In the Hapkido I learned, we were very defensive in our mindset. We did normally train against TKD style strikes and kicks, or grabs. That said, everything can be adapted. If a person throws a hook instead of a straight strike, you will still normally be aiming at the wrist. Or you may strike at the elbow as you move in, it will just be in a slightly different place than normal. Or if blocking with a parry and grab leading to a throw, you will still be grabbing for the same body parts. Kicks are probably about the same, from all fighting methods, so that a slight variation will allow you to do any technique that is appropriate.

So the question seems odd when you learned Hapkido as I did. We trained to defend strikes, kicks and grabs. Slight differences in the delivery didn't count much.

But I have heard those in other arts talk of only learning to defend from the same tactics they expect to use. I do wonder if those of say 5th or 6th Dan are learning more that is not yet appropriate to lower belts?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So the question seems odd when you learned Hapkido as I did. We trained to defend strikes, kicks and grabs. Slight differences in the delivery didn't count much.

As a hapkidoist, this isn't a concern for me. In fact, I would venture that hapkido is probably one of those arts that really can prepare you for most anything.

But I have also trained in other arts. I trained in Shotokan a very long time ago, three different flavors of taekwondo, Tang Soo Do, and four different sword arts. I cannot say that my experience in those arts is indicative of everyone else's, but in all of them, it was that art's offensive techniques against that art's defensive techniques.

Prior to learning hapkido, I had cause to use taekwondo to defend against non taekwondoin and met with success. So my question is less about whether or not your art prepares you to defend yourself outside of the dojang than it is about how training is conducted. As a general rule, I feel that if you understand your art's underlying principles, you can adapt to a multitude of situations against opponents from outside of your own field of study.

I posted this in the general section because it was intended as a discussion topic that isn't art specific.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

IRT is very much geared towards being efficient in all areas: weapons/tools, kicking, hand strikes, trapping hands and joint manipulations and grappling. We regularly work on grappling, takedown defenses, big wide bolo punches, boxing, knife defense both trained and untrained attacks, whatever. The end goal being able to work efficiently in any personal protection situation.

 

[sfs982000]

In my school we're taught to defend against other TKD attacks, but my instructor also teaches BJJ and will on occasion change things up and throw some grappling in. Any of the other schools I studied at all taught defensive tactics geared towards someone within the art.

 

[K-man]

We constantly train against our own art which is basic sparring, but all our bunkai is directed against the types of attacks that you might encounter on the street. In these scenarios the person attacking is not using karate style attacks. The exception,I think, is the trained boxer. His attacks are going to have a built in defence which is a bit intimidating at first to guys with less experience. This is where low kicks come in to their own. However, even that scenario is not a great deal different from our own sparring. :asian:

 

[arnisador]

An instructor once told me that newcomers to hist school are gold because they don't know how he's expecting them to attack him and hence it's a real test of his system--unlike when one of his own students attacks him with a technique for which the student knows the defense and expects it to be successful. Newcomers go along with your locks only if they hurt, not because they know they should.

I spoke with a young TKD (actually, Chuck Norris' Chung Kuk Do, technically) student this past weekend. A non-martial artist his age threw some punches at him his low/middle/rising blocks didn't work. Frustrated, he said "Those aren't the right kind of punches for blocking!" He was young and a yellow belt but I'd wager we've all been in that position at some early point in our training.

 

[K-man]

I spoke with a young TKD (actually, Chuck Norris' Chung Kuk Do, technically) student this past weekend. A non-martial artist his age threw some punches at him his low/middle/rising blocks didn't work. Frustrated, he said "Those aren't the right kind of punches for blocking!" He was young and a yellow belt but I'd wager we've all been in that position at some early point in our training.

Apropo the thread on 'blocking'. Ain't that the truth. I wonder why? :hmm:

 

[Tony Dismukes]

An instructor once told me that newcomers to hist school are gold because they don't know how he's expecting them to attack him and hence it's a real test of his system--unlike when one of his own students attacks him with a technique for which the student knows the defense and expects it to be successful. Newcomers go along with your locks only if they hurt, not because they know they should.

I always enjoy grappling with complete beginners because they don't know the the techniques yet and so they operate instinctively - just like an untrained attacker would. Sometimes you find someone who has naturally good instincts and great athleticism and can be dangerous even without training.

I spoke with a young TKD (actually, Chuck Norris' Chung Kuk Do, technically) student this past weekend. A non-martial artist his age threw some punches at him his low/middle/rising blocks didn't work. Frustrated, he said "Those aren't the right kind of punches for blocking!" He was young and a yellow belt but I'd wager we've all been in that position at some early point in our training.

"Look, I know that I'm defending correctly. It's obviously your fault for not knowing how to attack properly. How about you go away and come back to mug me after you've trained a little more."

 

[K-man]

"Look, I know that I'm defending correctly. It's obviously your fault for not knowing how to attack properly. How about you go away and come back to mug me after you've trained a little more."

Beautiful! Reminds me of Monty Python.

 

[arnisador]

Apropo the thread on 'blocking'. Ain't that the truth. I wonder why?

I emphasize that he was around 10 and couldn't be expected to know--but I had to resist explaining to him how those techniques might be more profitably employed than as "blocks".

 

[Aiki Lee]

We train against as many different kinds of attacks that we can come up with that we consider threatening. In the end though for us it tends to come down to are you attacking in a linear fashion or a circular/hooking one? Banzenkan aikininjutsu has many arts incorporated into its design and everything needs to be drilled with as much realism as possible and "reality checked" often to make sure we are not fooling ourselves into performing movements that wouldn't work against stronger, faster, and more aggressive opponents.

So you name it, we probably go over it at some point, and if we aren't experts on it we find someone who is.

 

[Danny T]

In our school we have training in Muay Thai, Wing Chun, Kali, Silat, Tai Chi, Shotokan, Combat Submission Wrestling (Shooto, BJJ, Catch Wrestling, Sambo) and MMA. Students can train in a single training system or in multiple systems. We often have students of different systems train and spar in other systems classes specifically for everyone's experience against the different tactics and strategies. We don't envision how others attack or train against someone attempting to attack or fight like some other method. For example we don't have a wing chun student to try to fight like a muay thai fighter. We have a muay thai fighter come into the wing chun class or the wing chun student attends the muay thai class to train using their wing chun. We don't pretend we really train against other methods. We also have an open sparring every week and invite students from all of the other schools in the area to come in. Only thing we require for this is leave your ego outside, enter as a friend and leave as a friend.

 

[TKDTony2179]

We don't train against styles or other arts. We don't train against street fighters because my instructor believe's his student can defend themselves against non martial artist. I am not blind but I see his point in when someone has train that their reaction time is different than someone who doesn't but at the same time we don't train against the surprise attacks. I try to teach how to defend yourself from your back, chokes, and wrist grabs to young students when we come back from camp every summer. Hoping that they learn to fight from mid-range to close range and just not from mid-range to long range.

 

[ACJ]

The idea of training against techniques is pretty much against my school's philosophy on self defence. If you're trying to react to the specific techniques of another person, you're going to lose most of your ability to predict effectively which is key to quick reactions/"pre-actions" and controlling the movement. We tend to teach more about paying attention to yours and your opponents body position as well as the movement of their shoulders and hips.

What I think would be a more interesting thing to discuss would be more the different tactics of other arts or the untrained. For instance a lot of the positioning we're doing is based from a standing striking and grappling perspective, we have a very large gap in how much work we do either starting on the ground, or with one person trying to take it to the ground. We don't have the resources to teach that effectively though, so we don't pretend we can.

As to whether we actually do work against moves from other styles, almost entirely yes. I don't remember ever teaching a traditional taekwondo move as an attack, nor a competition legal kick. We may throw a thigh kick here and there, but even they are rare. More commonly we try to cover attacks that are more likely to be encountered in a real situation, and use that as a starting base for teaching about movement.

 

[Noah_Legel]

We have formal yakusoku kumite (lit. promise sparring) partner sets that are done against "proper" karate attacks, but all of our self defense drills are against common street attacks or situations that can occur during a fight.

 

[Jackthekarateguy]

Yep, usually rugby tackles, jabs and hooks and haymakers, shirt grabs and chokes (occasionally low kicks)

 

[Drose427]

In my Moo Duk Kwan TKD class, we haven't done tackles (since I've been in class, may have missed it one night that I couldnt make it though), but aside from the obvious, most common punch to the face, we've also done a bunch of stuff from someone trying to grab or hold onto you, ( i.e. bear hug from behind, both hands on your collar, one hand on your collar,) SO while we might not go into tackling defense or bjj defense, we get a bit outside of our styles "Comfort Zone"