Does Anyone Know This 8th Dan Hapkido

[American HKD]

Greetings

Mike makes alot of good points throught-out this thread, but what is an organization of standing?

The KHA/KHF started because there was a need to unite many seperate Kwans at that time. The KHF is nothing more than a group of Kwans that united and agreed to issue centralizied rank. Why do they have power only because many united under one banner. WE MUST DO THE SAME.

There are many Kwans here in the USA so to speak who should do the same as I outlined elsewhere.

Most of us are students of top Masters or founders like Ji Han Jae we learned what our Korean brothers learned and need be beholden forever. We need to control our own destinies.

The older Korean folks will be gone in the next few years are we going to be controled by the next generation of Koreans and start the cycle over again?

 

[glad2bhere]

".......The KHA/KHF started because there was a need to unite many seperate Kwans at that time. The KHF is nothing more than a group of Kwans that united and agreed to issue centralizied rank. Why do they have power only because many united under one banner. WE MUST DO THE SAME......"

I understand what you are saying but you are not telling me how such an organization would avoid going down the same road as the KHA/KHF. Even if they started out for the most idealistic reasons possible, its quite a apparent that the mission somehow became distorted. If you are bound and determined to start yet another organization, how does one go about not repeating the mistakes of the past? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

".......The KHA/KHF started because there was a need to unite many seperate Kwans at that time. The KHF is nothing more than a group of Kwans that united and agreed to issue centralizied rank. Why do they have power only because many united under one banner. WE MUST DO THE SAME......"

I understand what you are saying but you are not telling me how such an organization would avoid going down the same road as the KHA/KHF. Even if they started out for the most idealistic reasons possible, its quite a apparent that the mission somehow became distorted. If you are bound and determined to start yet another organization, how does one go about not repeating the mistakes of the past? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Nothings fool proof is it you have to work at it when problem arise.

 

[Disco]

Stuart, after giving some additional thought to this position (New Organization) and even though I am for it, I think there is a major road block for it ever coming to pass.

Even if there was a minimum core curriculum drawn up and approved by forum members, there is no way to implement it. For initial acceptance into this new organization, how can people be evaluated as to the minimums. It's either accept at face value their current certificate of training or have an actual pre-acceptance testing. I don't know how the testing could ever be accomplished if that was the choosen route. In all honesty, I think an impasse has been reached.

 

[Black Belt FC]

Greetings everyone,



I couldn’t fathom in my wildest dreams that a simple question would invoke so many debates and let alone a few arguments. I apologies for those that may view this tread as counter productive but invite further cerebral stimulation.



Thank you Master Whalen for your vote of support and respect; my sentiments are mutual. I will invoke your help in the future on these sensitive matters.



Yes! I agreed that a Central American organization is needed, but fear that there’re too many barriers at play. I’m not talking about who will be in charge that’s too easy, current high ranking Hapkido Master should be consider. I’m talking about the one corner stone that always gets overlooked “human nature”. If this organization is to survive and bear fruit everyone must put their personal hostility aside, make amends and compose them selves the way professional martial artist should radiant.



I apologies in advance to my superior Hapkido seniors if I sound as if I’m on a high horse, this clearly is not my intentions. My intentions to see an American Organization flourish are very selfish. I will love to see the day when all Hapkido practitioners can at least agreed to work with each other and make Hapkido more widely respected. Moreover, students and instructors will respect their Hapkido seniors more since the high ranks are aligned to work together and will not permit rogue instructors or students to jeopardize Hapkido or the fellowship.



If this were to take place in a NON PROFIT organization with free elections I don’t see why it shouldn’t work.

 

[American HKD]

Stuart, after giving some additional thought to this position (New Organization) and even though I am for it, I think there is a major road block for it ever coming to pass.

Even if there was a minimum core curriculum drawn up and approved by forum members, there is no way to implement it. For initial acceptance into this new organization, how can people be evaluated as to the minimums. It's either accept at face value their current certificate of training or have an actual pre-acceptance testing. I don't know how the testing could ever be accomplished if that was the choosen route. In all honesty, I think an impasse has been reached.

Mike,

Your Right about that you'd have to accept a certian amount of people on reputation at first.

Or take the time to check out people individually but I would'nt actually test them in a formal sense.

 

[glad2bhere]

"......Stuart, after giving some additional thought to this position (New Organization) and even though I am for it, I think there is a major road block for it ever coming to pass.

Even if there was a minimum core curriculum drawn up and approved by forum members, there is no way to implement it. For initial acceptance into this new organization, how can people be evaluated as to the minimums. It's either accept at face value their current certificate of training or have an actual pre-acceptance testing. I don't know how the testing could ever be accomplished if that was the choosen route. In all honesty, I think an impasse has been reached......"

I would not call it an "impasse", but its definitely a problem to be solved. I think that starting up new organizations has become such a natural affair that folks are willing to try running before its been demonstrated that anyone can crawl.

What is all of this talk about a "minimum core curriculum" when you have not even established such a curriculum to begin with?

And where did this idea of being "accepted" into an organization come into being? So we will have people who are "accepted" which means, by definition, we will have people who are NOT accepted? And what do the not-accepted people do? Isn't that what we have right now? We have disenfranchised Hapkido advocates and this organization will do what?--- disenfranchize them AGAIN?

And how did it come to be that people are going to "test" other people? Would you all sit still if I specified myself as sitting in judgement on YOUR skills? You all seem to be in an all-fire rush to lay judgement down on people, which is EXACTLY how we got into the place we found ourselves with organizations before! There seems to be this need for a judgement that results in "insiders" and "outsiders"; "good guys" vs "bad guys". Let me give you something to think about.

In the PGA, who are the "good guys and who are the "bad guys". How about on any given football or baseball team? How about in any given dochang? Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys? You all want to cut Hapkido up into quarrelling parts so that there will be an elite and enlighten few and everybody else are outsiders. You don't seem to get the simple fact that we are all part of the same dochang but related through different teachers and at different geographic locations. No wonder we can't do any problem solving! All I hear are people talking a better game plan but still wanting it to produce folks in rarified positions of respect and regard. I'd like to see us problem solve but its not going to happen THIS way. Been there done that and bought the T-shirt. Lets try again--- with something different, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Paul B]

So what are you saying? Form a big "study group"? Or...just come and learn Hapkido and maybe get a new perspective on it. That sounds good to me.

 

[American HKD]

So what are you saying? Form a big "study group"? Or...just come and learn Hapkido and maybe get a new perspective on it. That sounds good to me.

Paul

Something like that a little more formal as to follow a curriculum for the goal of learning the Art.

But in general you are right.

 

[glad2bhere]

No, Paul. What I am saying is that for several centuries Koreans taught martial science in "study groups". They are called "kwans". Somewhere along the line somebody got the big idea to use the Japanese approach for organizing things with ranks, and licenses, and organizations, and grandmasters and supreme grandmasters etc etc etc. Now this was OK for the Japanese as they had gone so far as to make warriors a separate and elite strata in their culture. The Koreans never did this. All of this crap that people think is so important was never a part of Korean tradition until sometime during the Occupation. What you have right now is the residuals left over from the Occupation and what ex-pat brought back from Japan when they came home. Oh yeah, we CALL what we belong to "kwans" but they really aren't. They are actually bad copies of what the Korean ex-pats thought the ryu-ha system was all about. You see, we TALK about practicing Korean arts but organizationally what we do is a bad Western interpretation, of a corrupted Korean copy of Japanese culture. And we have been living in this nightmare for so long that we have forgotten that it is possible to wake-up------ if we want to.

The strength of Korean culture is that they pull together, and without having to be told how to do it. We don't see the beauty of it because we, like every other person on Earth are NOT Korean, and so, are the outsiders they are surviving against. The crap we see here in the States is stuff laid on us by Koreans who have come to this country because they weren't cutting it in the "old country". We don't speak Korean, so they could tell us that ANYTHING is "genuine" Korean culture and we would believe it because, after all, THEY have that epicanthic fold in their eye that guarentees they are the authority--- and as we all know authorities don't lie, do they? So we keep doing our bad impression of their bad copy of Japanese culture.

AND-----

WE have the power to stop doing this, IF we want to.

THATS what I'm saying.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

I'm sorry, but now I'm totally confused. Bruce, I still don't really know what your driving at. You speak reverently upon Korean culture and expect us to be enamored with it, when it has been the Koreans themselves (as you pointed out) that have fostered the situation that people are trying to right. How can WE have the power to stop doing this, IF we want to., if we can't / don't remove ourselves from under their thumb? Those 5 major organizations that were referenced in another post are all controlled by the Koreans.

"You see, we TALK about practicing Korean arts but organizationally what we do is a bad Western interpretation, of a corrupted Korean copy of Japanese culture. And we have been living in this nightmare for so long that we have forgotten that it is possible to wake-up------ if we want to".

OK, how do we "wake up" and just what do we do? On an individual basis I know what to do and did it many years ago, but on a group setting - what's the ticket? I'm getting mixed information. On one hand you don't see the need for another organization, but on the other hand you present the problem (above) and stipulate to wake up. I feel I'm going in two directions at the same time.

 

[American HKD]

"......Stuart, after giving some additional thought to this position (New Organization) and even though I am for it, I think there is a major road block for it ever coming to pass.

Even if there was a minimum core curriculum drawn up and approved by forum members, there is no way to implement it. For initial acceptance into this new organization, how can people be evaluated as to the minimums. It's either accept at face value their current certificate of training or have an actual pre-acceptance testing. I don't know how the testing could ever be accomplished if that was the choosen route. In all honesty, I think an impasse has been reached......"

I would not call it an "impasse", but its definitely a problem to be solved. I think that starting up new organizations has become such a natural affair that folks are willing to try running before its been demonstrated that anyone can crawl.

What is all of this talk about a "minimum core curriculum" when you have not even established such a curriculum to begin with?

And where did this idea of being "accepted" into an organization come into being? So we will have people who are "accepted" which means, by definition, we will have people who are NOT accepted? And what do the not-accepted people do? Isn't that what we have right now? We have disenfranchised Hapkido advocates and this organization will do what?--- disenfranchize them AGAIN?

And how did it come to be that people are going to "test" other people? Would you all sit still if I specified myself as sitting in judgement on YOUR skills? You all seem to be in an all-fire rush to lay judgement down on people, which is EXACTLY how we got into the place we found ourselves with organizations before! There seems to be this need for a judgement that results in "insiders" and "outsiders"; "good guys" vs "bad guys". Let me give you something to think about.

In the PGA, who are the "good guys and who are the "bad guys". How about on any given football or baseball team? How about in any given dochang? Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys? You all want to cut Hapkido up into quarrelling parts so that there will be an elite and enlighten few and everybody else are outsiders. You don't seem to get the simple fact that we are all part of the same dochang but related through different teachers and at different geographic locations. No wonder we can't do any problem solving! All I hear are people talking a better game plan but still wanting it to produce folks in rarified positions of respect and regard. I'd like to see us problem solve but its not going to happen THIS way. Been there done that and bought the T-shirt. Lets try again--- with something different, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce,

You can put a road block up for anything or go over it.

I have been working on some core system for about a year although not set in stone. I would be doing it for my own students regardless of the outcome here.

Accepted member means as I posted "to be a member you have to hold a 1st dan from the group or be a student of a member instructor."

Which means you have the knowledge of our curriculum. Not the in the exact order but the "applicable skills".

That can be deterimed two ways.
1. By a member instructor valging for the person.
2. By a member instructor meeting the applicant and seeing what he knows informally.

As far as who can test whom any 3 member instructors should be able test anyone, one dan below thier own rank. The group will then issue it's rank certifcation.

Lastly if it's deterimed that a applicant needs more training to meet our curriculum we should do all we can to help the person achieve the goal.
The standard of course is set up to insure Hapkido is around for the future and people have great expirience in a politically free enviornment.

That's the mission statement more or less.

If people dont agree with our goals they can go else where. Nobody's all things to all people.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

I'm sorry but what is it that is unclear to you about what I wrote.

a.) WE are NOT Koreans, so invoking Korean ways of doing things organizationally (IE: Neo-Confucian underpinnings) does not work for us.

b.) The things that we are thinking are "Korean", again, and that we are trying to implement are, of themselves NOT Korean.

c.) The organizational method for solving problems which people are touting only works in a highly-structured culture such as Japan where compliance is considered a community duty.

d,) If you want to solve the problems we face in the KOREAN M A then I suggest that we actually use genuine traditional KOREAN models and these do NOT include an organizational approach. We already SAY we have "kwans". How about we stop just using the word and start actually using the "kwan" model?

What is it that you find unclear in points a through d?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

No, Paul. What I am saying is that for several centuries Koreans taught martial science in "study groups". They are called "kwans". Somewhere along the line somebody got the big idea to use the Japanese approach for organizing things with ranks, and licenses, and organizations, and grandmasters and supreme grandmasters etc etc etc. Now this was OK for the Japanese as they had gone so far as to make warriors a separate and elite strata in their culture. The Koreans never did this. All of this crap that people think is so important was never a part of Korean tradition until sometime during the Occupation. What you have right now is the residuals left over from the Occupation and what ex-pat brought back from Japan when they came home. Oh yeah, we CALL what we belong to "kwans" but they really aren't. They are actually bad copies of what the Korean ex-pats thought the ryu-ha system was all about. You see, we TALK about practicing Korean arts but organizationally what we do is a bad Western interpretation, of a corrupted Korean copy of Japanese culture. And we have been living in this nightmare for so long that we have forgotten that it is possible to wake-up------ if we want to.

Nicely said

The strength of Korean culture is that they pull together, and without having to be told how to do it. We don't see the beauty of it because we, like every other person on Earth are NOT Korean, and so, are the outsiders they are surviving against. The crap we see here in the States is stuff laid on us by Koreans who have come to this country because they weren't cutting it in the "old country". We don't speak Korean, so they could tell us that ANYTHING is "genuine" Korean culture and we would believe it because, after all, THEY have that epicanthic fold in their eye that guarentees they are the authority--- and as we all know authorities don't lie, do they? So we keep doing our bad impression of their bad copy of Japanese culture.

AND-----

WE have the power to stop doing this, IF we want to.

THATS what I'm saying.

Very good Bruce


Best Wishes,

Bruce

Lets do it.

So far only one senior Master as contacted me and I really don't know if that person is committed to my ideas yet althought he has thought about it before.

I heard it said by a senior already who's going to accept our rank? The point is we don't care we all good enough to validate each other (isn't that what any other Assoc. does anyway?) That kind of thinking will keep us under thier control forever.

Basically if my idea works out it will be beacuse Many Istructors/Masters pull together and support it.

If they dont' for whatever reasons and each can make have thier own excuse, we will continue to have the same crappy system for another generation. Then everyone can blame the Masters and Instructors for not being strong enough to stand up for all of us in Hapkido!

 

[Paul B]

This sounds great. Thanks for the clarification,Bruce.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

".......So far only one senior Master as contacted me and I really don't know if that person is committed to my ideas yet althought he has thought about it before.

I heard it said by a senior already who's going to accept our rank? The point is we don't care we all good enough to validate each other (isn't that what any other Assoc. does anyway?) That kind of thinking will keep us under thier control forever.

Basically if my idea works out it will be beacuse Many Istructors/Masters pull together and support it.

If they dont' for whatever reasons and each can make have thier own excuse, we will continue to have the same crappy system for another generation. Then everyone can blame the Masters and Instructors for not being strong enough to stand up for all of us in Hapkido!......"

Sorry, Stuart. Please read my new string, "Sandlot Hapkido". Using my metaphor from that string I would say that you are still looking for approval from the "big kids" on the next block. We don't need approval or permission. At last check we are grown adults. If the kids on the next block want to play with us that's OK in my book. If they want to come in and start pushing their rules, and telling us what to do then I choose not to "play with them" because they "don't play nice." I wish I could say this is more complex and exotic but its really a very simple concept. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

".......So far only one senior Master as contacted me and I really don't know if that person is committed to my ideas yet althought he has thought about it before.

I heard it said by a senior already who's going to accept our rank? The point is we don't care we all good enough to validate each other (isn't that what any other Assoc. does anyway?) That kind of thinking will keep us under thier control forever.

Basically if my idea works out it will be beacuse Many Istructors/Masters pull together and support it.

If they dont' for whatever reasons and each can make have thier own excuse, we will continue to have the same crappy system for another generation. Then everyone can blame the Masters and Instructors for not being strong enough to stand up for all of us in Hapkido!......"

Sorry, Stuart. Please read my new string, "Sandlot Hapkido". Using my metaphor from that string I would say that you are still looking for approval from the "big kids" on the next block. We don't need approval or permission. At last check we are grown adults. If the kids on the next block want to play with us that's OK in my book. If they want to come in and start pushing their rules, and telling us what to do then I choose not to "play with them" because they "don't play nice." I wish I could say this is more complex and exotic but its really a very simple concept. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

You lost me?

Moreover I don't need approval I need fellowship.

My idea is for a group effort of seniors who are basically saying we don't need anyone but ourselves to make this work. We don't need the approval of the KHF, WHF, and so on.

I already have me, myself, and I at my school what's that prove?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

Thats not the message that I get at all from your posts. I don't know what everybody else is hearing, but what I think I am reading is someone who wants "fellowship" but wants it within some sort of structure for an as-yet unspecified reason.

For my part I would enjoy the fellowship as well. It would help me to know that when I get on a mat with someone we are, somehow, on the same page as far as what we are there for, how we view what we do, what we call what we do, respond to what each other does and so forth. Somehow I don't get the impression thats really what you are after. Frankly, I for one am not sure WHAT it is that you are after. You came down pretty hard on Rudy because he wasn't jumping in on what it was you were after. You STILL haven't told people what it is that you are jockeying for. So far I know that you view a new organization as necessary. You apparently want some sort of criteria but are a little vague on the purpose. You want senior practitioners to sign-off on your efforts but are likewise a little vague about what they are affirming. Somewhere along the line I'm afraid you are going to have to light someplace and get real honest about what you are angling for. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce