Do you have a weak WCK Front Punch?

[chisauking]

van asked: This part is interesting as well. Are you saying that beginning wing chunners shouldn't have the goal of power in mind? If that's the case I'd agree--focusing on that too early before basic fundamental technique is acquired would be detrimental to training. And that final bit about the concept of power being misunderstood...are you saying that the only people that understand the idea of power are those who have "earned" it through hard sparring and fighting?

1) Wing chun start on the premise that your opponent is bigger and stronger than you. Why? Well, why would one need kungfu if you were bigger & stronger than your opponent? So, if we start on that premise, power is not the route to go, since a bigger person will always have the potential to develop more power than you, no mater how hard you try. (think of a big engine block & small engine block), what do we focus on? We focus on maximising what we already have, and we focus on other components that we can develop just as well, if not better, than a bigger person. However, that's not to say strentgh isn't important; it's VERY important. But, we don't think in terms of power; we think how to inflict maximum injury. It's clearly a different mindset.
2) I stated very clearly that most people's experiences on fighting and therefore their opinion on forums is based not on their own experiences, but by watching tv. What one sees on tv may not be reality. If you have never used your art in reality, how do YOU know where to hit, how to hit, how hard you can hit, what the cause would be? By using your bare knuckles on a real person, trying to inflict damage on that person, one would know how best to use the wing chun punch. It's not the understanding of power, as you'd put it; more how to use it to inflict greater damage.
I think the question anwsers it self. It's like asking, who would know more about sex -- someone who's done it for real, with plenty of partners, or someone who only watch it on tv.
The same is true of wing chun fighting. The people who has actually used it, would nderstand the dynamics of wing chun fighting. Those that haven't, will make their points up using tv shows. Don't you think?

 

[geezer]

...It's like asking, who would know more about sex -- someone who's done it for real, with plenty of partners, or someone who only watch it on tv. The same is true of wing chun fighting... Don't you think?

Good Lord what an analogy! In other words your either a wanker or have STDs?

Oh, and as for the rest of you post. I get your point, but you can't deny that generating power is still important. The difference between WC and many other arts is that power isn't the most important thing, since we can borrow the opponent's power. We had a saying, "First you get rid of your own force, then you get rid of your enemy's force, and then you can borrow his force." But my sifu used to also say that at this level you can also add your own force back into the equation. Strength and power properly used are a great asset.

 

[vankuen]

1) Wing chun start on the premise that your opponent is bigger and stronger than you. Why? Well, why would one need kungfu if you were bigger & stronger than your opponent? So, if we start on that premise, power is not the route to go, since a bigger person will always have the potential to develop more power than you, no mater how hard you try. (think of a big engine block & small engine block), what do we focus on? We focus on maximising what we already have, and we focus on other components that we can develop just as well, if not better, than a bigger person. However, that's not to say strentgh isn't important; it's VERY important. But, we don't think in terms of power; we think how to inflict maximum injury. It's clearly a different mindset.

I understand where you're coming from now. I ask for elaboration because while the message seems succinct and clear to you as the writer, your audience can have varying interpretations on what you write. So in an effort to avoid misunderstandings I ask for elaboration sometimes to make sure I'm not disagreeing with someone I actually agree with. In this case though, I think I might have a slightly different perspective on things.

I agree that the premise of wing chun is to be able to fight a bigger and stronger opponent. But let's not confuse being bigger and stronger with the issuance of power. While being stronger and the ability to issue power are not mutually exclusive, they also do not always come in pairs. To give you an example I taught a group of fellas while serving in the military. Each one of them was taller than me, weighed more than me, could easily lift more weight than me. However...they couldn't kick or punch as hard as me. Why? Because even though they were bigger and stronger, they didn't have the ability to move their bodies in as efficient a manner. They weren't able to issue power. As you said, the potential is there...but the product of that potential is not always there.

That said...we can't bank on that being the case in every instance can we? So that brings us back to the original question of our tools and the efficacy of those tools to generate sufficient power in a fight. It is absolutely necessary to develop power and to make sure we're using the tools that give us the greatest advantage. Power, speed, economy of motion, PROPER BODY CONDITIONING, are all things we should be focusing on. Though the power attribute has a special place because no matter how much of the other attributes you have...if you hit like a 5 year old...you're not going to "win" the fight.

And, since I'm a pragmatist and base my training on fighting as opposed to what someone tells me should happen in a fight, I agree with you fully on your second point. Though I try not to believe that anyone who practices wing chun (or any martial art) today would be that deluded into thinking that what they see Donnie Yen doing on TV is real. Here's for hoping anyway~

 

[chisauking]

Geezer, I didn't say power isn't important -- just that we shouldn't think in terms of power, but how to inflict the most damage. One doesn't always need power for that. Again, if people don't pocess the mindset of this objective, then they will not understand what I'm saying.

Further more, how much power does one need to inflict injury & damage? If you can really utilise wing chun punching, than you don't need as much power as sports people would have you believe -- because their objective in their punching is different to ours.

Just to elaborate a little on power, did you know that we humans are alot stronger than we realise? We can exert a lot more strength than we normally do, but the pain factor prevents us from doing so. It's the pain from our connecting joints & the muscle tissues when we exert power that prevent us from using our full potential under normal circumstances.

If you agree with me, then don't you also agree it's better to develop usable power, rather than just developing power? By maximising our stucture & body aliment, and the ability to apply wing chun tools effectively, we can already make better use of what we already have. Not only that, but by training our wing chun skills, we are already developing power in the process.

Do you understand the tai chi saying 'say leung bhut tsin gan'? Do you think the gungfu practitioners acheive this aim by developing power, power, power?

There will always be a limit to how much power one can develop, so it's far easier to think of methods to injure people without requiring too much power.

 

[chisauking]

van sez: Though I try not to believe that anyone who practices wing chun (or any martial art) today would be that deluded into thinking that what they see Donnie Yen doing on TV is real. Here's for hoping anyway~

csk: You try telling the millions of Americans that watch WTF, WTT, WTTIT wrestling it isn't true. You try telling all the kids throwing popcorn into their mouth, sipping pepsi, whilst watching NHB, MMA, K1 it isn't reality fighting. In fact, those shows are the yardstick by which all other arts are measured.

 

[wushuguy]

As has been previously mentioned body structure, using what we already have, this is the natural limit of our power. to increase it, we can strengthen our tendons and ligaments and joints, not just muscle power, as it's the bones,tendons, ligaments, and joints that bear the brunt of the force with proper body structure. Qi also plays an important part for striking power.

punching the mitt or bag is good to find out if we have enough force, because we should be able to do both the explosive internally damaging strike and the "pushing" kind of strike. the person holding the mitt should feel a sharper pain in the hand when using internally damaging strikes, while the "regular" punches, should feel like what people normally expect and measure as strength.

Once when I was working in a TKD school, one of the instructors wanted to feel the difference between TKD and kung fu. so he had me kicking the shield taking turns with a 3rd degree black belt of TKD, and he said and we all saw even though i was more than 30 lbs lighter than the black belt with less physical strength, that internally damaging strikes against a shield, the holder of the shield feels the kick as if he was getting kicked and not the bag, and they will feel it is different and more hurtful than a "regular" strike.

so, power really doesn't come from muscle, but as said, body structure, strong internal, qi, and proper fajing.

There's no need to have the mind set that everyone you fight is bigger than you, just practice best you can and develop as much as you are able or willing. Don't worry if someone says you hit like a girl or that so and so is stronger than you, because our goal isn't to compete with others in strength, but to have enough that we can put down attackers quickly to minimize risk to ourself or others.

 

[wushuguy]

also there's a limit, how far are you willing to go to develop power? in that TKD school, I saw a guy with a massive right hand, and a regular left hand. he was practicing some kind of iron fist or whatever koreans call their body conditioning. but his hand, although surely powerful, was deformed.

are you willing to have slightly more power and pay the possible consequences?

 

[vankuen]

van sez: Though I try not to believe that anyone who practices wing chun (or any martial art) today would be that deluded into thinking that what they see Donnie Yen doing on TV is real. Here's for hoping anyway~

csk: You try telling the millions of Americans that watch WTF, WTT, WTTIT wrestling it isn't true. You try telling all the kids throwing popcorn into their mouth, sipping pepsi, whilst watching NHB, MMA, K1 it isn't reality fighting. In fact, those shows are the yardstick by which all other arts are measured.

Well not to sound like an elitist, those aren't exactly the type of people I would take stock in as far as mental capacity. I'm talking about the average person of average intelligence who is capable of logic and reasoning.

But if nothing else, if you really want to look at it with a cup-half-full mentality, if we got into a fight with one of those folks it'll make it that much easier!

 

[geezer]

Don't worry if someone says you hit like a girl...

Depends on the girl I guess. Now if you're talking about Ng mui or Yim Wing Chun... well then, I'm good with that.

Now, about Qi... I don't rightly know what it is. So I just work with what I understand: things like structure, relaxation, efficient generation and release of energy and so forth. If I do it right, who knows... "Qi happens".

 

[vankuen]

Unfortunately that's a debate as well...everyone's got a different idea as to what qi is, how it works, its limitations or lack thereof, and so forth.

Western science vs. eastern theory...almost as ugly as talking politics.

 

[Domino]

Depends what you want, speed or strength I guess. I'll go for speed all day.
Michael Jai White talks about punching.