Do you have a weak WCK Front Punch?

[geezer]

Warning: This is flat-out plagiarism. I stole the topic for this thread from one Vankuen posted on another forum, but I wanted to see what you guys thought about the matter... so here goes.

Van stated that when he was punching against focus mitts, his partner mentioned that his WCK front punch didn't jolt the "target's" arm as hard as when he gave it a good boxer's cross. Now, he said that the WCK punch was sharp and powerful, but just not as jolting as the boxer's cross (Van, I hope I pretty much got that right --otherwise please correct me!). Anyway, this lead to a lively debate about the relative strength of different kinds of punches and the mechanics of power generation. Of course, most of the opinions offered up were wrong -- LOL. So how about it guys... any thoughts?

 

[vankuen]

...and to elaborate, we also discussed what YOUR strongest punch was in your arsenal and why you think that is.

Other touch points were of course weighting, footwork, follow-through, and the like.

 

[bully]

My boxer type punches are harder than my chain punches.

I would imagine because I have not got "it" yet. Ie proper structure, footwork etc.

Still working on it.

Any tips?

 

[blindsage]

If you take a staff and hit a mitt with an arcing swing it's going to have a lot of jolt. If you hit the mitt with a thrust and put you're body weight behind it there will not be a lot of 'jolt', but it will still be a hard hit.

My limited understanding of WC punching is that it relies on relaxation, structure and follow through with the body. IME it's the last part that is often missing from many chunners' hits.

 

[vankuen]

Its hard to give tips over the internet, because no one can see how you punch and what errors there are (if any).

You may be punching correctly, and just might not be able to use that punch as effectively as others because of anatomical and genetic differences.

You might need to simply practice punching something solid (like a heavy bag or someone holding a shield) to gauge power improvement. This also lets you know REAL quick if your lined up because your wrist will buckle, or your elbow with edge out if you're not used to hitting something powerfully with your wing chun punch. It will also help with timing on when to fully extend the punch and where you need to be to get proper penetration in relation to the target.

You might need to better align all the joints, and get your "hip" into it when doing it in a non-YGKYM stance.

There's could be a myriad of things. That's what this thread is all about though--self analyzation.

 

[vankuen]

If you take a staff and hit a mitt with an arcing swing it's going to have a lot of jolt. If you hit the mitt with a thrust and put you're body weight behind it there will not be a lot of 'jolt', but it will still be a hard hit.

My limited understanding of WC punching is that it relies on relaxation, structure and follow through with the body. IME it's the last part that is often missing from many chunners' hits.

Great response!

Now how does the staff scenario differ from the relation of two straight punches? Because in your analogy, you've got one straight motion vs. a swinging motion. This would be more akin to comparing the straight punch to a CLF styled forearm strike.

Moreso, can you elaborate on the last part about follow-through? Given the general rules for YM WC about squared shoulders and aligned hips, how do you follow through with your body in the execution of your wing chun punches? BTW...that's a VERY good observation, because I think that is one of the keys to powerful punching in general.

 

[wushuguy]

the "follow thru" using the entire body for the punch is not easily apparent in WC. in fact, most martial arts except for those internal arts, don't know how to involve the entire body without having obvious motion. I think many WC practitioners don't understand this aspect, relying on turning or bracing stances to involve the entire body. With deeper understanding one should be able to realize how to generate "full" power from a "non-mobile" stance, "nei gong" vs "wai gong", but I won't go into detail, that should be explained to you by your sifu.

Anyway, to improve punch power I'd advise that it is beneficial to spend the 1/2 hr or so doing the SLT form to have the internal development needed for good fajing.

 

[Nabakatsu]

The follow through with the whole body is executed by footwork for my lineage. We step through the opponent, and than drag our weight with our legs. It's difficult to keep your stepping up with your chain punches, but every 2-3 should have the full mass behind it, how many chain punches does it take to unscrew consciousness?
We never use hips to generate power as far as I know, aside from our hook, elbows, ect, but those are all created by being in that position, not something we would do on our own, unless we tried to make it that way.
With a step, my front hand delivered to the throat or nose would be enough to do me justice, and I'm pretty scrawny.
A jolt doesn't necessarily mean more power, some of the strikes which create a jolt just bounce off their target.

 

[blindsage]

Great response!

Now how does the staff scenario differ from the relation of two straight punches? Because in your analogy, you've got one straight motion vs. a swinging motion. This would be more akin to comparing the straight punch to a CLF styled forearm strike.

If you think of body mechanics the analogy is actually perfect for a cross vs. WC punch. The cross uses the torque of the body and weight dropping to create power (with a possible step through) so the arm acts as a straight punch but the power generation is more like swinging in an arc (just very compact). Like a baseball pitch: the ball flies straight, but the power is from the pitcher's arcing throw. The power generation in Wing Chun punching is straight from the get go. It's like a pool stick hitting the ball. The energy comes straight in, but if the momentum stops at the ball the ball doesn't go anywhere, the hit has to continue through.

Moreso, can you elaborate on the last part about follow-through? Given the general rules for YM WC about squared shoulders and aligned hips, how do you follow through with your body in the execution of your wing chun punches? BTW...that's a VERY good observation, because I think that is one of the keys to powerful punching in general.

My understanding would be the same as Nabakatsu said, footwork. You would have to step through in order to transfer the power properly. To my understanding WC punches are full body hits, not just the arms. Which is why structure and relaxation are so important. Most chunners hit as if they think the punch is just an arm technique, so of course there's little power. Relaxing into your structure, letting the shoulders sink properly and following through with proper footwork is the source of powerful hitting (again, to my limited understanding). Another way besides stepping through, would be shifting your feet, which creates torque. But again this falls under the category of footwork.

 

[geezer]

We never use hips to generate power as far as I know, aside from our hook, elbows, ect...

Use the hips? Heck yeah we do! Every time you step, the hip pulses forward (the whole adduction thingie) and the spine straightens (I've seen Emin demonstrate this on video)... basically the whole body flexes, especially if you are stepping, but even when stationary in YGKYM stance (think "jumping-punch" from Chum Kiu--you really see it there). Just because we don't rotate horizontally, doesn't mean that the legs, the hip, the spine and torso, the shoulders, the elbow, the wrist... basically the whole body comes into play. At least that's my take on the front punch as taught in the WT and related groups.

 

[bully]

I am now OFFICIALLY confused. With hips, without hips, turning, not turning.

Oh god too much info for my small brain!!

 

[vankuen]

lol. It's all about one's perception of reality. Keep in mind that even people that learn wc from the same teacher can have different takes on what they're taught.

 

[bully]

Yeah I know, just came back from training tonight and have some conflicting ideas to the lineage I learnt.

Will start a thread when I stop aching.

 

[geezer]

lol. It's all about one's perception of reality. Keep in mind that even people that learn wc from the same teacher can have different takes on what they're taught.

That's so true. In fact I'm kinda glad my kung-fu brothers in my lineage don't spend much time on forums, or I'd probably be arguing with them all the time! Even though we might be doing the same thing... it's never easy to put technique into words.

Another thing. You see things differently from different levels of accomplishment. For example, when I first learned chain punching, my old sifu, LT, told me not to move my shoulders forward. Basically, we "turned-off" our shoulders like Jin (Chinaboxer) described in his video (coming from the Gary Lam/Hawkins Cheung lineage). Holding the shoulder back while shooting the arm forward like a loose rope with a weight on the end created a "crack the whip" effect that added a lot of snap and power to my punches.

But now, many years later, and training with some other people in the same lineage coming originally from WT, I've learned that the shoulders must move with great elasticity to get the maximum effect from your punches. Thinking that this seemed to contradict what LT had told me, I checked out how he moved on some old video, and damned! but LT was moving just like that, with his incredibly elastic torso and shoulders adding awesome whipping power to his punches. I just never registered it before. And maybe I just wasn't ready to use that kind of technique. To be honest, there is only one guy in our new group who really can move like that. For the rest of us, it's still a distant objective yet to be achieved.

 

[mook jong man]

If I am at close range we use what we call a " Half Hip Projection " which is just a fancy way of saying that the hip is slightly thrust forward on the side that we are punching on in co-ordination with the strike.

If the target is further away we use stepping in co-ordination with the strike , preferably stepping in on the same side we are punching on for maximum power.

I should also add that in my lineage both our feet are equal weighted and in what some call sil lim tao stance not in a lead leg stance.
This enables us to walk forward synchronizing each step with a strike if we were to be doing single strikes or just glide forward doing multiple strikes.

One of the problems I have found even with my own students is that they don't extend the arm right through the pad using what we term as " Elbow Force " but stop short of full extension thus losing penetrating power.

This sometimes go back to when they first started training and hit a heavy bag and their wrist buckled and they hurt themselves because they couldn't firm their wrist properly or maybe someone took the pad away and they hyper extended their elbow

So probably on a deep subconscious level they remember that injury and hold themselves back a little bit in case they hurt their wrist again or elbow.

Other factors involved in weakening the punch would be just not sinking down enough in the stance , too high in the stance will result in a weak strike lacking bodyweight.

There is also how fast you can step in , how fast you can move your body mass from point A to point B in a unified fashion in time with the strike.

In our lineage we also use an internal contraction that when activated locks the top half and bottom half of the body together , when a student does not have this contraction activated I have found there is a noticeable decrease in striking power both punching and kicking.

But having said all of that , Wing Chun might not have the most powerful punches around , but they do the job for the range they are designed for .

The extreme close range where nano seconds count and any drawing back of the strike to try and obtain more power and distance will result in the opponent gaining an advantage.

We must also consider that we use the system for self defence against human beings not pads.

Its the way the strike feels to the person on the receiving end when it hits their body that matters , not the way it makes a noise on a pad or how it moves it .

In my experience from holding pads for my seniors and my late Sifu their strikes had an extreme penetrative quality that was felt deep inside your body and sometimes could make you feel quite sick for a while.

I don't know if this was from the acceleration they had developed in their punching or something to do with the surface area of the fist when it makes contact held in the Wing Chun fashion.

Whether it was from these factors or more nebulous ones like what we called " Determination Force " or " Thought Force " the ability to imbue the physical act with mental force that could be projected through the opponent I don't know .

But what I do know is that if they hit me for real without a pad covering me it would probably kill me or come very close to it .

 

[chisauking]

This is a very simple question.

In MMA or ring sports, the OBJECTIVE is to 'knock' out your opponent.

When wing chun was conceived, there were no such sport, so the OBJECTIVE than was to inflict maximum damage to your opponent.

With the former objective, the focus is on impact power -- so when someone hits your pads with that objective, one will feel greater power.

With wing chun, we don't think in the sports context. We don't want 'flowery' hands. Our punch is designed to penetrate deep into the body, using the small area of our knuckles, with our body weight & momentum behind the punch. Therefore, subjectively, it doesn't feel as powerful. A needle can penetrate deep into your body, with little action and no impact. However, the damage inflicted is great.

1 of the punches spreads out, making a loud cracking sound. It sounds good, forces the opponent back and it's impressive to watch.
The other punch seems like nothing, but it's fast, accurate and penetrates deeply, causing ngui shuong (internal injury). However, to the layman, it looks weak.

If you think of 'power' in wing chun, you already have the wrong concept. Most wing chun practitioners don't understand this concept, because their experiences isn't earnt in fighting, but through watching MMA shows on tv, and\or sparring in a 'safe' environment.

 

[mook jong man]

This is a very simple question.

In MMA or ring sports, the OBJECTIVE is to 'knock' out your opponent.

When wing chun was conceived, there were no such sport, so the OBJECTIVE than was to inflict maximum damage to your opponent.

With the former objective, the focus is on impact power -- so when someone hits your pads with that objective, one will feel greater power.

With wing chun, we don't think in the sports context. We don't want 'flowery' hands. Our punch is designed to penetrate deep into the body, using the small area of our knuckles, with our body weight & momentum behind the punch. Therefore, subjectively, it doesn't feel as powerful. A needle can penetrate deep into your body, with little action and no impact. However, the damage inflicted is great.

1 of the punches spreads out, making a loud cracking sound. It sounds good, forces the opponent back and it's impressive to watch.
The other punch seems like nothing, but it's fast, accurate and penetrates deeply, causing ngui shuong (internal injury). However, to the layman, it looks weak.

If you think of 'power' in wing chun, you already have the wrong concept. Most wing chun practitioners don't understand this concept, because their experiences isn't earnt in fighting, but through watching MMA shows on tv, and\or sparring in a 'safe' environment.

When you talked about the punch force spreading out , it reminded me of something.

I remember my seniors and Sifu always saying that if the Wing Chun punch is executed properly on a human being that the acceleration and penetration of the punch is such that the person just drops to the floor.

The opponent is not moved back because that would indicate more of a pushing type of force where the force is spread out rather than striking with rapid acceleration and penetration.

I remember my Sifu had two types of 1 inch punch , one where you would be moved back and the other where you would feel it inside your body.

 

[geezer]

...if the Wing Chun punch is executed properly on a human being that the acceleration and penetration of the punch is such that the person just drops to the floor.

I remember my Sifu had two types of 1 inch punch , one where you would be moved back and the other where you would feel it inside your body.

My old Chinese sifu demonstrated exactly the same skill: two types of inch-punch. With one, he could throw you back across the room, without even hurting you (much), the other, even when controlled, would penetrate and drop you breathless, without moving you back at all. So that's a real WCK punch regardless of lineage!

The application of a boxer's cross and a WTK punch are really so different, that you can't say that one is better any more than you could say that about a hook, uppercut cross or jab... all just different tools within different systems. They are all useful if used the right way in the right situation.

 

[vankuen]

We must also consider that we use the system for self defence against human beings not pads.

Its the way the strike feels to the person on the receiving end when it hits their body that matters , not the way it makes a noise on a pad or how it moves it .

I agree with the idea of the target being a human. However pads and bags do have a place in training and can help to measure a person's effectiveness in the strike. For example, if you kick a heavy bag with au gurk (or the roundhouse kick) and the bag just makes a slapping noise, that generally means that you just hit the surface, with no real power or penetration. If you kick it and it with virtually no noise and it swings, than you pushed the bag. If you kick it and it folds with a noticeable thud--then your kick has developed into something useful. It penetrated the bag, which is what you want to have happen.

The same goes for punches as well. In the same vein, when a person hits a focus mitt, how the punch "feels" to the other person is also of paramount importance because its feedback to you as to what sort of kinetic energy has passed into the target. Even penetrating power or internal power should be able to be felt in a pad or body shield (as illustrated by your next paragraph below).

In my experience from holding pads for my seniors and my late Sifu their strikes had an extreme penetrative quality that was felt deep inside your body and sometimes could make you feel quite sick for a while.

So all in all, yes--what matters is how the power of the punch affects a person, but since we can't go around punching people and then asking if they've suffered internal damage, all we have to go by is the effects on inanimate objects. If you can punch with penetrative power, it can be agreed that the power should be able to be felt even through padding. Which brings us back to the catalyst of the original thread creation.

 

[vankuen]

In MMA or ring sports, the OBJECTIVE is to 'knock' out your opponent.

When wing chun was conceived, there were no such sport, so the OBJECTIVE than was to inflict maximum damage to your opponent.

With the former objective, the focus is on impact power -- so when someone hits your pads with that objective, one will feel greater power.

With wing chun, we don't think in the sports context. We don't want 'flowery' hands. Our punch is designed to penetrate deep into the body, using the small area of our knuckles, with our body weight & momentum behind the punch. Therefore, subjectively, it doesn't feel as powerful. A needle can penetrate deep into your body, with little action and no impact. However, the damage inflicted is great.

Hmmm. I see what you're trying to say but I'm not sure it holds water. First, ring sports can be won in a number of ways, but the objective (i.e. winning the match) doesn't dictate the efficacy of the punch to produce power or even what type of power. The only thing necessary to product internal damage in the human body is "force". Combined with other factors like the part of the body is being affected, the angle of the impact in relation to the body, the cross sectional area of the impact, the pulse time of the impact, and etc., will determine if internal damage occurs. Generally speaking...any blunt trauma to the body has the potential to cause internal damage if the force being applied is strong enough.

Though I do agree that a wing chun person who specializes in short power will in theory be able to develop greater power in shorter distance compared to someone trying to punch in the same distance with lessor training in that area.

If you think of 'power' in wing chun, you already have the wrong concept. Most wing chun practitioners don't understand this concept, because their experiences isn't earnt in fighting, but through watching MMA shows on tv, and\or sparring in a 'safe' environment.

This part is interesting as well. Are you saying that beginning wing chunners shouldn't have the goal of power in mind? If that's the case I'd agree--focusing on that too early before basic fundamental technique is acquired would be detrimental to training. And that final bit about the concept of power being misunderstood...are you saying that the only people that understand the idea of power are those who have "earned" it through hard sparring and fighting?